Good garage has dropped a serious clanger - gutted....
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm in a bit of a quandary.
A well known, good, local garage whom I've bigged up in the past for their knowhow and service have made quite a serious error with my service.
I took the car in to investigate a minor issue, and annual service.
The minor issue they skirted around, as if they didn't want to get involved, which I thought a little odd, since it could have resulted in a nice big labour bill. Two weeks later we agreed that they would get no further, so I collected the car.
Drove home 7 or 8 miles, no issues.
Went out in the car again, did a couple of miles and stopped to shop.
Started the car again, got a mile up the road and noticed zero oil pressure and warning light on. Pulled over immediately.
Recovered home (luckily not too far).
On the driveway, first thing I checked was the dipstick, which strangely was showing miles over the 'max'.
However, these cars are 'dry sump' engines so there's a bit of a knack to filling and checking them, it can only be done with the engine running.
So, benefit of the doubt, I left it to cool overnight and did some research on how to check it properly.
Next morning, before starting the engine, dipstick reads about 1" over the max. line, alarm bells are ringing. As far as I know (which isn't far), it shouldn't really read anything, since there's no oil circulating to 'test'.
Started the engine for 20 seconds, oil pressure is back again (hooray), but dipstick is reading about 4-5" over the max. line and the oil is all foamy, full of air bubbles.
Did some googling.
Over-filled oil apparently causes the crank to churn up the oil (since the level is too high), filling it full of air bubbles and making it a foamy consistency. Then, the oil pump effectively pumps nothing but foamy oil, hence no pressure. Leaving it to settle will let some of the air bubbles escape, and hence pressure will be back (but not for long). This is, basically, exactly what my symptoms are.
I think whoever put the oil in didn't realise they had to do it with the engine running, so have filled it as a 'wet sump' engine, until the dip stick says max (and some extra in this case). I'm an idiot, and even I know not to do this!
I've called the garage this morning, told them the car is on my driveway for them to inspect at their leisure, but under no circumstances do I want any of their mechanics working on it again. I certainly don't want it out of my sight for them to inspect.
From some basic googling, the knock on effect of over-filling the oil is potential crank oil seal wear, premature cat failure (if it's full of unburnt oil), and basically an extremely expensive bill for putting these things right. I may be lucky, as I only did about 10-12 miles before stopping.
I'm gutted. What do I do? There's no way I can ask this garage to put it right, since they made such a schoolboy error in the first place. And then there's the question of what exactly is there to put right?
I'm in limbo as to what potential damage has been done that will manifest itself in the future. What if I need new cats in 2 years time? Or the engine oil seals blow in 5000 miles? Is this the fault of this service? Or would they have gone wrong anyway? Who's to tell?
It was, basically, just shy of a £1000 service for an oil and filter change and some minor extras. Pretty expensive for such a whopping great error.
What would you guys do?
I'm trying not to finger point and get angry, but I'm absolutely gutted that such a good garage, with an excellent reputation, can make such a stupid mistake when they're being so well paid.
Apart from a slight whiney sound (which could be anything), the engine sounded OK for the 10-20 seconds it was running to check the oil, no knocks or rattles, but who's to say....
I'm in a bit of a quandary.
A well known, good, local garage whom I've bigged up in the past for their knowhow and service have made quite a serious error with my service.
I took the car in to investigate a minor issue, and annual service.
The minor issue they skirted around, as if they didn't want to get involved, which I thought a little odd, since it could have resulted in a nice big labour bill. Two weeks later we agreed that they would get no further, so I collected the car.
Drove home 7 or 8 miles, no issues.
Went out in the car again, did a couple of miles and stopped to shop.
Started the car again, got a mile up the road and noticed zero oil pressure and warning light on. Pulled over immediately.
Recovered home (luckily not too far).
On the driveway, first thing I checked was the dipstick, which strangely was showing miles over the 'max'.
However, these cars are 'dry sump' engines so there's a bit of a knack to filling and checking them, it can only be done with the engine running.
So, benefit of the doubt, I left it to cool overnight and did some research on how to check it properly.
Next morning, before starting the engine, dipstick reads about 1" over the max. line, alarm bells are ringing. As far as I know (which isn't far), it shouldn't really read anything, since there's no oil circulating to 'test'.
Started the engine for 20 seconds, oil pressure is back again (hooray), but dipstick is reading about 4-5" over the max. line and the oil is all foamy, full of air bubbles.
Did some googling.
Over-filled oil apparently causes the crank to churn up the oil (since the level is too high), filling it full of air bubbles and making it a foamy consistency. Then, the oil pump effectively pumps nothing but foamy oil, hence no pressure. Leaving it to settle will let some of the air bubbles escape, and hence pressure will be back (but not for long). This is, basically, exactly what my symptoms are.
I think whoever put the oil in didn't realise they had to do it with the engine running, so have filled it as a 'wet sump' engine, until the dip stick says max (and some extra in this case). I'm an idiot, and even I know not to do this!
I've called the garage this morning, told them the car is on my driveway for them to inspect at their leisure, but under no circumstances do I want any of their mechanics working on it again. I certainly don't want it out of my sight for them to inspect.
From some basic googling, the knock on effect of over-filling the oil is potential crank oil seal wear, premature cat failure (if it's full of unburnt oil), and basically an extremely expensive bill for putting these things right. I may be lucky, as I only did about 10-12 miles before stopping.
I'm gutted. What do I do? There's no way I can ask this garage to put it right, since they made such a schoolboy error in the first place. And then there's the question of what exactly is there to put right?
I'm in limbo as to what potential damage has been done that will manifest itself in the future. What if I need new cats in 2 years time? Or the engine oil seals blow in 5000 miles? Is this the fault of this service? Or would they have gone wrong anyway? Who's to tell?
It was, basically, just shy of a £1000 service for an oil and filter change and some minor extras. Pretty expensive for such a whopping great error.
What would you guys do?
I'm trying not to finger point and get angry, but I'm absolutely gutted that such a good garage, with an excellent reputation, can make such a stupid mistake when they're being so well paid.
Apart from a slight whiney sound (which could be anything), the engine sounded OK for the 10-20 seconds it was running to check the oil, no knocks or rattles, but who's to say....
I would be very careful as to what you say to them so they do not try and shed responsibility. It seems you have done all the right things though and are being cautious which is 100% right. Get them out immediately to inspect the car, I would have them carry out the same or similar tests to prove your point. As for the garage and work, they should be able to trace who carried out the work and therefore take approriate action etc etc.
Ideally and for piece of mind, you can take elsewhere but it may be even more hassle. Use this problem to get all your issues fixed and then some? Possibly a nice courtesy car? Perhaps contact head office for ammo to use should things get nasty or you are displeased.
Best of luck and I feel for you but Im sure it'll all sort it self out.
By the way, this issue they avoided. I take it that can not be related as it was present before the service?
Ideally and for piece of mind, you can take elsewhere but it may be even more hassle. Use this problem to get all your issues fixed and then some? Possibly a nice courtesy car? Perhaps contact head office for ammo to use should things get nasty or you are displeased.
Best of luck and I feel for you but Im sure it'll all sort it self out.
By the way, this issue they avoided. I take it that can not be related as it was present before the service?
Thanks guys, taken on board.
I should add that this isn't part of a group of garages, it's an independent, specialist garage, that's been around for donkeys years and has an excellent reputation.
I've always taken the car here rather than a 'budget' option because I trusted it would be better looked after. I do love the car, hence investigating all the little niggles at every service or before, and being happy to pay the extra for an expert to be dealing with it. They are expensive, but I always thought it worth the money in dealing with experts.
The chap who looks after my other (cheap) cars loves me because I always tell him to do the job properly rather than cheaply. Apparently nobody says this any more!
Promised call back hasn't materialised yet, although I have said the car is here (not going anywhere as it can't) awaiting their inspection whenever they like.
The only other thing is to have it trailered to another specialist for a full inspection, but I would guess everybody is booked up for at least a couple of weeks. I've already been without the car for three weeks, which is how long it took them to change the oil and filters, and scratch heads Laurel and Hardy style, about the other issue.
The other issue could be related to poor oil being used in the past, or just bad luck. I wouldn't be looking to put the blame for this on to them, it existed before I took it in, and is actually slightly better now for an oil change.
The thing that's bothering me is now being able to tell exactly what damage has been done. It's probably going to be minimal, as I managed to pull over within a few hundred metres (I hope) of the oil pressure disappearing. The only way to tell is a complete strip down of the engine, which would be thousands of pounds in labour in its own.
How do I ask for somebody to put right something when we don't know exactly what's been damaged?
Tough situation for me, and for the garage.
I just hope they can put it right without things getting nasty.
They've literally just called and are sending somebody down tonight to have a look themselves.
I might have a quick check again, but from my basic engineering knowledge, everything about this points to over-filled oil, and not some other problem.
I should add that this isn't part of a group of garages, it's an independent, specialist garage, that's been around for donkeys years and has an excellent reputation.
I've always taken the car here rather than a 'budget' option because I trusted it would be better looked after. I do love the car, hence investigating all the little niggles at every service or before, and being happy to pay the extra for an expert to be dealing with it. They are expensive, but I always thought it worth the money in dealing with experts.
The chap who looks after my other (cheap) cars loves me because I always tell him to do the job properly rather than cheaply. Apparently nobody says this any more!
Promised call back hasn't materialised yet, although I have said the car is here (not going anywhere as it can't) awaiting their inspection whenever they like.
The only other thing is to have it trailered to another specialist for a full inspection, but I would guess everybody is booked up for at least a couple of weeks. I've already been without the car for three weeks, which is how long it took them to change the oil and filters, and scratch heads Laurel and Hardy style, about the other issue.
The other issue could be related to poor oil being used in the past, or just bad luck. I wouldn't be looking to put the blame for this on to them, it existed before I took it in, and is actually slightly better now for an oil change.
The thing that's bothering me is now being able to tell exactly what damage has been done. It's probably going to be minimal, as I managed to pull over within a few hundred metres (I hope) of the oil pressure disappearing. The only way to tell is a complete strip down of the engine, which would be thousands of pounds in labour in its own.
How do I ask for somebody to put right something when we don't know exactly what's been damaged?
Tough situation for me, and for the garage.
I just hope they can put it right without things getting nasty.
They've literally just called and are sending somebody down tonight to have a look themselves.
I might have a quick check again, but from my basic engineering knowledge, everything about this points to over-filled oil, and not some other problem.
I think you may have little alternative but to give them the opportunity to rectify it, if you want the cost covered. A basic error, by a garage that apparently doesn't make them habitually - a bit unfair not to give them the opportunity to redeem themselves. If they are as good as you thought they will identify the culprit and train/discipline the person responsible accordingly.
I would expect red-carpet treatment though, and no quibbling.
I would expect red-carpet treatment though, and no quibbling.
GingerWizard said:
I would pay for a specialist to have a look at it and submit his report to the garage. I would then think about selling the car tbh.....
Gwiz
That's it Gwiz. Sell it on Pistonheads or elswere to some unsuspecting sucker. Better still stuff it into a dealer and make them suffer. You're a class act my friend. I imagine you have a great life working out how to shaft your neighbour for pound or two. Keep it up. It must be very rewarding.Gwiz
Edited by GingerWizard on Monday 12th July 14:51
Girlpower said:
GingerWizard said:
I would pay for a specialist to have a look at it and submit his report to the garage. I would then think about selling the car tbh.....
Gwiz
That's it Gwiz. Sell it on Pistonheads or elswere to some unsuspecting sucker. Better still stuff it into a dealer and make them suffer. You're a class act my friend. I imagine you have a great life working out how to shaft your neighbour for pound or two. Keep it up. It must be very rewarding.Gwiz
Edited by GingerWizard on Monday 12th July 14:51
Gwiz
GingerWizard said:
Girlpower said:
GingerWizard said:
I would pay for a specialist to have a look at it and submit his report to the garage. I would then think about selling the car tbh.....
Gwiz
That's it Gwiz. Sell it on Pistonheads or elswere to some unsuspecting sucker. Better still stuff it into a dealer and make them suffer. You're a class act my friend. I imagine you have a great life working out how to shaft your neighbour for pound or two. Keep it up. It must be very rewarding.Gwiz
Edited by GingerWizard on Monday 12th July 14:51
Gwiz
Quick update.
I think we've got to the bottom of what it is, and any damage is very unlikely.
Basically, from cold, there's plenty of oil pressure, but as it heats up, the oil is filling full of air bubbles, causing a froth on the dipstick when you check it. Very strange.
If you turn the engine off and re-start, the pump cannot 'prime', hence no oil pressure when hot.
Luckily, it gives you oil pressure on the gauge before you even turn the engine over, so you don't even have to start it up to get an indication of whether you have good pressure or not. This is helping to limit any potential damage.
The engine was run for less than 30 seconds from when I pulled out of the car park to where I pulled over, so it's very, very unlikely to have caused any engine damage or cat damage. I simply didn't go far enough to do anything serious.
Garage is saying they'll investigate a possible collapsed oil filter, which is the most likely reason, although I'm still fairly sure the oil level is too high (unless this is related).
Looks like I was very lucky in spotting this almost immediately after starting the engine, so any further damage would be been very unlikely. I was also driving slowly, low revs, just pulling out of a side street, which will have helped.
Actually, the engine is running really smoothly from cold, much quieter than when I took it in to be serviced.
I'll be taking a load of photos today and documenting everything, including how the oil fills with air bubbles over the 5-10 minutes of warming up, I've decided to let the garage recover it and investigate themselves, but not until it's been independently checked by somebody else first. It's potentially a minefield in terms of 'blame', and I want to make sure it's not going to blow up in my face (literally).
As for selling the car, no. I love it. And what would I replace it with? A 360 that would get scratched if I left it parked in the road? 430 that I would constantly worry about? A Gallardo that is basically the car I have (but a little bit faster and nicer styling), but with huge extra potential for problems?
Basically, there's nothing out there I would change it for, so I'll be making sure it's tickety-boo and keeping it for the foreseeable.
The ONLY thing that tempts me is a Gallardo, but every time I look, it hardly seems worth spending another £50k for 800cc extra and 100BHP. And I do love my Maser.
Anyway, things are looking up today, doesn't appear to be any serious damage to the engine, it's running well from cold with no knocks or rattles, I just need to get this oil pressure air bubble oddness sorted out.
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
I think we've got to the bottom of what it is, and any damage is very unlikely.
Basically, from cold, there's plenty of oil pressure, but as it heats up, the oil is filling full of air bubbles, causing a froth on the dipstick when you check it. Very strange.
If you turn the engine off and re-start, the pump cannot 'prime', hence no oil pressure when hot.
Luckily, it gives you oil pressure on the gauge before you even turn the engine over, so you don't even have to start it up to get an indication of whether you have good pressure or not. This is helping to limit any potential damage.
The engine was run for less than 30 seconds from when I pulled out of the car park to where I pulled over, so it's very, very unlikely to have caused any engine damage or cat damage. I simply didn't go far enough to do anything serious.
Garage is saying they'll investigate a possible collapsed oil filter, which is the most likely reason, although I'm still fairly sure the oil level is too high (unless this is related).
Looks like I was very lucky in spotting this almost immediately after starting the engine, so any further damage would be been very unlikely. I was also driving slowly, low revs, just pulling out of a side street, which will have helped.
Actually, the engine is running really smoothly from cold, much quieter than when I took it in to be serviced.
I'll be taking a load of photos today and documenting everything, including how the oil fills with air bubbles over the 5-10 minutes of warming up, I've decided to let the garage recover it and investigate themselves, but not until it's been independently checked by somebody else first. It's potentially a minefield in terms of 'blame', and I want to make sure it's not going to blow up in my face (literally).
As for selling the car, no. I love it. And what would I replace it with? A 360 that would get scratched if I left it parked in the road? 430 that I would constantly worry about? A Gallardo that is basically the car I have (but a little bit faster and nicer styling), but with huge extra potential for problems?
Basically, there's nothing out there I would change it for, so I'll be making sure it's tickety-boo and keeping it for the foreseeable.
The ONLY thing that tempts me is a Gallardo, but every time I look, it hardly seems worth spending another £50k for 800cc extra and 100BHP. And I do love my Maser.
Anyway, things are looking up today, doesn't appear to be any serious damage to the engine, it's running well from cold with no knocks or rattles, I just need to get this oil pressure air bubble oddness sorted out.
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
GingerWizard said:
Girlpower said:
GingerWizard said:
I would pay for a specialist to have a look at it and submit his report to the garage. I would then think about selling the car tbh.....
Gwiz
That's it Gwiz. Sell it on Pistonheads or elswere to some unsuspecting sucker. Better still stuff it into a dealer and make them suffer. You're a class act my friend. I imagine you have a great life working out how to shaft your neighbour for pound or two. Keep it up. It must be very rewarding.Gwiz
Edited by GingerWizard on Monday 12th July 14:51
Gwiz
Girlpower said:
GingerWizard said:
Girlpower said:
GingerWizard said:
I would pay for a specialist to have a look at it and submit his report to the garage. I would then think about selling the car tbh.....
Gwiz
That's it Gwiz. Sell it on Pistonheads or elswere to some unsuspecting sucker. Better still stuff it into a dealer and make them suffer. You're a class act my friend. I imagine you have a great life working out how to shaft your neighbour for pound or two. Keep it up. It must be very rewarding.Gwiz
Edited by GingerWizard on Monday 12th July 14:51
Gwiz
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff