VMax Passenger Question
Discussion
I've given a lot of passenger rides over the last few VMaxs (and enjoyed giving them), often to complete strangers and something has been bothering me. I've had other people mention it as well and I think we all ought to discuss.
Basically, the reality is that VMax is not occuring on public roads and the speeds are recorded. It is therefore very uncertain whether road insurance will cover this activity and in all probability it does not.
We have been very fortunate in that to date no-one has crashed or been injured at a VMax. Whilst this is a testament to the quality of vehicles and driving standard, it is arguably only a matter of time before something does occur. Such a risk is clearly prevalent when there are 30 cars that repeatedly travel at speeds between 140mph and near 200mph, followed by extreme braking. It only takes a single tire failure, for example, for a major incident to occur. The presence of lorries alongside the runway and cars at the end does little to mitigate the risk!
What happens if there is a passenger in your car when this occurs and that passanger is injured, possibly even crippled for life. I imagine they will be sueing the driver for a considerable amount of money, which might fall directly to the driver if there is no valid car insurance.
Whilst this might sound like a remote possibility, we should be aware that an experienced road-tester for Car and Driver was killed a couple of years ago when testing a modified Mercedes at circa 200mph in the USA, after it rolled. I also have experience of an ongoing medical insurance case, whereby a few years ago a vehicle I was driving was hit (whilst stationary) by a bus. My passenger at the time is still pursuing this case through my insurer to the buses insurer for his injuries, that will almost certainly cause him pain for the rest of life. Court settlements in these cases are often very significant amounts of money (ie hundreds of thousands of pounds)
Basically my point is that all the drivers at VMax events need to think seriously about the wisdom of carrying passengers and if they do so ensure that appropriate disclaimers have been signed (are these really legally valid anyway?).....
This is an extreme view designed to solicit discussion, so - thoughts please...
Guy
Good point.
My insurance will not cover it. I can get trackday cover but the event organiser must be officially recognised by my insurers. Great as Craig and Greg are they wont be.
After the feature on 5th Gear there was a lot of discussion on other boards about safety and a lot of criticism about the fact that no one was wearing a helmet.
The chances of rolling at Brunters are slim as there is so much room with nothing to hit but I think I will be taking my helmet with me this time.
As for passengers could the disclaimers not be extended to cover any pax laps as well? It still may not be valid (I will check) but will at least be an indication that passengers accept the inherent risks.
Does this mean you dont want a ride in my Exige Guy?
My insurance will not cover it. I can get trackday cover but the event organiser must be officially recognised by my insurers. Great as Craig and Greg are they wont be.
After the feature on 5th Gear there was a lot of discussion on other boards about safety and a lot of criticism about the fact that no one was wearing a helmet.
The chances of rolling at Brunters are slim as there is so much room with nothing to hit but I think I will be taking my helmet with me this time.
As for passengers could the disclaimers not be extended to cover any pax laps as well? It still may not be valid (I will check) but will at least be an indication that passengers accept the inherent risks.
Does this mean you dont want a ride in my Exige Guy?
If a valid document can be produced then I would like to see one done, which everyone signs and Craig collects.
Insurance at these events is indeed a grey area and I do think passengers should confirm they are accepting the risk and absolving the driver of any responsiblity prior to getting into the cars.
If a passenger is of the mind that they or their estate would wish to claim against a driver personally, then frankly they should not be getting in the car.
Can something be produced? Any legal type PHers care to commment if an agreement would be legally binding on the individual or their estate?
DAZ
Insurance at these events is indeed a grey area and I do think passengers should confirm they are accepting the risk and absolving the driver of any responsiblity prior to getting into the cars.
If a passenger is of the mind that they or their estate would wish to claim against a driver personally, then frankly they should not be getting in the car.
Can something be produced? Any legal type PHers care to commment if an agreement would be legally binding on the individual or their estate?
DAZ
GregE240 said:
It would be long overdue.
Greg
Agreed, more than welcome in the 5.0 yellow Kayak if its ready in time
@ Greg, how you doing fella ?? Back on Topic, if the drivers sign a waiver can we just not get passengers to co sign something as well ??
>> Edited by Hughesie2 on Tuesday 12th July 17:14
dazren said:Tried to last time....
Davey S1 said:
Does this mean you dont want a ride in my Exige Guy?
I think its about bleedin' time Mr R got passenger runs in anything and bloody well everything he likes.
It would be long overdue.
Greg
Good to hear your on the case Greg. Make it so.
DAZ
Couldn't get the sod out of his own bleedin' car. Plus, he's (now) bigger than me
As I see it we need to get everyone, both drivers and their passengers to sign something, confirming they know the risks of getting into the cars and are absolving the drivers of blame should they be injured or die.
The next part, is would the signed form, be legally enforcable? Eg against some poor widow suing the driver or the drivers estate for loss of income from the family breadwinner, which could easily be a £1million+ legal case. eg the drivers family being financially screwed.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Tuesday 12th July 17:20
The next part, is would the signed form, be legally enforcable? Eg against some poor widow suing the driver or the drivers estate for loss of income from the family breadwinner, which could easily be a £1million+ legal case. eg the drivers family being financially screwed.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Tuesday 12th July 17:20
I am not a lawyer, but how about something like this for the passengers to sign (in addition to the existing driver declaration). Any lawyers able to comment?
VMax Declaration & Indemnity – Bruntingthorpe Sunday 17 July 2005
I wish to passenger in cars and/or otherwise participate in the above event.
I understand that motorsport is hazardous and I am voluntarily exposing myself to risk of damage or loss or personal injury by participating in the day. Despite this I understand that the purpose of the day is to allow the participants to improve their skills and learn the handling and braking characteristics of the cars which they are using.
I understand that any insurance carried by the event location operator in respect of any liability which might arise out of the day will be limited and that the various drivers own motor, third party and public liability insurance (if any) is unlikely to cover me for my losses, liabilities or personal injury.
I agree to make no claim against any participant, and/or driver and/or the event location operator and/or their respective officers or agents in respect of any loss or injury suffered by me during the day and to indemnify them against their costs and losses arising out of any claim made against them by anyone to the extent that such costs and losses are attributable directly or indirectly to my participation in the day.
I have read and agree with the above Declaration and Indemnity and agree that its terms will also apply to my participation in any future VMax day unless I sign a subsequent Declaration and Indemnity which will then take precedence.
VMax Declaration & Indemnity – Bruntingthorpe Sunday 17 July 2005
I wish to passenger in cars and/or otherwise participate in the above event.
I understand that motorsport is hazardous and I am voluntarily exposing myself to risk of damage or loss or personal injury by participating in the day. Despite this I understand that the purpose of the day is to allow the participants to improve their skills and learn the handling and braking characteristics of the cars which they are using.
I understand that any insurance carried by the event location operator in respect of any liability which might arise out of the day will be limited and that the various drivers own motor, third party and public liability insurance (if any) is unlikely to cover me for my losses, liabilities or personal injury.
I agree to make no claim against any participant, and/or driver and/or the event location operator and/or their respective officers or agents in respect of any loss or injury suffered by me during the day and to indemnify them against their costs and losses arising out of any claim made against them by anyone to the extent that such costs and losses are attributable directly or indirectly to my participation in the day.
I have read and agree with the above Declaration and Indemnity and agree that its terms will also apply to my participation in any future VMax day unless I sign a subsequent Declaration and Indemnity which will then take precedence.
Agree with you all the way Daz and i would be interested to know if a passenger disclaimer would stand up in court by the legal bods...
But i'd also be interested to know if Craigs disclaimers for the drivers would stand up as well, wouldnt they have the same standing in court as the Passengers waivers ??
But i'd also be interested to know if Craigs disclaimers for the drivers would stand up as well, wouldnt they have the same standing in court as the Passengers waivers ??
I agree with everything said & I'd be a fool not to appreciate all concerns.
I have had similar worries myself which is why we always push the safety aspect so hard.
The indemnity form is identical to the one carried by the Porsche Club GB, they had it checked by lawyers.
Everyone is asked for one, passengers also & it is checked before they go out. I am more than happy for a seperate one for passengers also.
Everyone is driving/passengering on the understanding that this is a group booking not a corporate event.
If people feel that helmets should be obligatory then I'm all in favour & will enforce this duly.
Re insurance, most insurers wont cover you unless it is a corporate organised event however, some vmaxxers in the past have told me that their insurance were happy with it or charged a small addition.
I have had similar worries myself which is why we always push the safety aspect so hard.
The indemnity form is identical to the one carried by the Porsche Club GB, they had it checked by lawyers.
Everyone is asked for one, passengers also & it is checked before they go out. I am more than happy for a seperate one for passengers also.
Everyone is driving/passengering on the understanding that this is a group booking not a corporate event.
If people feel that helmets should be obligatory then I'm all in favour & will enforce this duly.
Re insurance, most insurers wont cover you unless it is a corporate organised event however, some vmaxxers in the past have told me that their insurance were happy with it or charged a small addition.
craigw said:
Everyone is asked for one, passengers also & it is checked before they go out. I am more than happy for a seperate one for passengers also.
Maybe you could issue cards/wristband (expensive i know but you get me drift) to ALL passengers so that we know they have signed a waiver form Craig ??
Plotloss said:
Whilst I appreciate that this is a neccesary conversation to have does it strike anyone else as a little bit sad that this conversation is neccesary, if you see what I mean?
Or am I alone?
I agree, but isnt it just representative of the world we live in at the moment ??
Plotloss said:Not as sad as having it after a tragic event.
Whilst I appreciate that this is a neccesary conversation to have does it strike anyone else as a little bit sad that this conversation is neccesary, if you see what I mean?
Or am I alone?
However, we musn't lose sight of the fact that this is a bunch of like minded petrolheads collectively hiring Bruntingthorpe for a hoon. As said before, anyone passengering who even considers that it is anything other than being entirely at their own risk needn't bother coming within a mile of the place.
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