Anyone ever seen engine damage like this before?
Discussion
Hi All,
This is my first post on here, but I've lurked around for many years.
I wont go into all the details yet as you'll be here for ages reading it, but we've been having some problems of the past couple of year with a bike engined car. We are contually having damage to the cylinder as shown in the picture.
All the other photos are on:
http://www.ko_racer.talktalk.net/R1A
Engine is a standard Yamaha R1 (5VY 2006), with sump baffle plate, oil cooler, Fuel & IGN power commander which are fully mapped.
Coolant Temp ~80c
AFR ~ 12.8-13 at WOT
Fuel Pressure all good
Oil Temp ~110c
Has anyone seen damage like this before or got any thoughts on what may be causing it?
So far we've tried:
Larger radiator & Various Different Cooling System Layouts
Richer Fuel & Less Timing
Clean & Test Injectors
New Exhaust System
New ECU & Sensors
Non Aqueous Coolant
Cryogenic treatemnts
Overtorquing the Head
Relocating Fuel System to reduce heat soak.
It seems to be temperature related as during the cold winter months (~5c ambient temp) we can run all day without a problem, on a normal day at about ~15c we get about 10-15 laps. The failure is usually after a longs straight as you'd expect.
We have seen this engine run in various other types of car without problem (Jedi's, RGB, Hill climb cars) and have even changed out cooling & fuel systems to match some of these.
The only difference I can see is that our engine is pretty much up against the cockput bulkhead (rear engined car) and this causes the exhaust to be very very close the engine block. There is no airflow through the engine bay as it's so tight. We thought that as the engine was water cooled and is well within it's operating range it wouldn't be a problem.
Our car was orignially fitted with the early R1 engine and had run for years without issue.
We have all but given up on using this engine in the car as we're well into double figures on failures but wanted a few other thoughts before we install something different to find that does the same too.
We would love to find a reason for these failures, even it's just it's xxxx makes it incompatible. I hate just giving up, but we're pretty much at that point now.
This is my first post on here, but I've lurked around for many years.
I wont go into all the details yet as you'll be here for ages reading it, but we've been having some problems of the past couple of year with a bike engined car. We are contually having damage to the cylinder as shown in the picture.
All the other photos are on:
http://www.ko_racer.talktalk.net/R1A
Engine is a standard Yamaha R1 (5VY 2006), with sump baffle plate, oil cooler, Fuel & IGN power commander which are fully mapped.
Coolant Temp ~80c
AFR ~ 12.8-13 at WOT
Fuel Pressure all good
Oil Temp ~110c
Has anyone seen damage like this before or got any thoughts on what may be causing it?
So far we've tried:
Larger radiator & Various Different Cooling System Layouts
Richer Fuel & Less Timing
Clean & Test Injectors
New Exhaust System
New ECU & Sensors
Non Aqueous Coolant
Cryogenic treatemnts
Overtorquing the Head
Relocating Fuel System to reduce heat soak.
It seems to be temperature related as during the cold winter months (~5c ambient temp) we can run all day without a problem, on a normal day at about ~15c we get about 10-15 laps. The failure is usually after a longs straight as you'd expect.
We have seen this engine run in various other types of car without problem (Jedi's, RGB, Hill climb cars) and have even changed out cooling & fuel systems to match some of these.
The only difference I can see is that our engine is pretty much up against the cockput bulkhead (rear engined car) and this causes the exhaust to be very very close the engine block. There is no airflow through the engine bay as it's so tight. We thought that as the engine was water cooled and is well within it's operating range it wouldn't be a problem.
Our car was orignially fitted with the early R1 engine and had run for years without issue.
We have all but given up on using this engine in the car as we're well into double figures on failures but wanted a few other thoughts before we install something different to find that does the same too.
We would love to find a reason for these failures, even it's just it's xxxx makes it incompatible. I hate just giving up, but we're pretty much at that point now.
You're not the only one:
http://www.soflasportbikes.com/forum/berenguer-per...
Between cyls 1 and 2?
Could ask on R1-forum.com
http://www.soflasportbikes.com/forum/berenguer-per...
Between cyls 1 and 2?
Could ask on R1-forum.com
Many years ago I built an MGB race engine for someone which was perfectly reliable in the car either on the track or on the rollers. It went onto an engine dyno setup that had only been recently commissioned and immediately seized No 3 piston. I went and had a look and told the operator it looked to me like the engine had been over heated. He swore blind it couldn't have because the fancy new digital oil and water temp controller let both systems be controlled to any temp you wanted and he'd run everything nice and cool.
I honed the bore, fitted a new piston and it did exactly the same again. At that point I thought bugger this for a game of soldiers and took the thing away again. It was of course fine once back in the car. Much later I found out from someone else that after doing the same thing to other people's engines the dyno owner found the temp measurement system was faulty and so every engine had been running much hotter than they thought it had.
Anyway it looks the same on yours. Wherever you are measuring the coolant temp doesn't necessarily indicate it's that temp somewhere else in the system. I suggest you try and reduce the control temperature by 10 degrees even if that seems too low. Reducing the oil temperature would also have a knock on effect on the water temperature so that would also help.
The only other ways of suppressing detonation if that's what's ultimately causing the gasket failures is to reduce CR and if the pistons are seizing then bore clearance and ring gaps might need altering.
There's clearly no point just leaving everything stock if this particular installation is not reliable on stock settings. However I think lower coolant temps would probably solve it all.
I honed the bore, fitted a new piston and it did exactly the same again. At that point I thought bugger this for a game of soldiers and took the thing away again. It was of course fine once back in the car. Much later I found out from someone else that after doing the same thing to other people's engines the dyno owner found the temp measurement system was faulty and so every engine had been running much hotter than they thought it had.
Anyway it looks the same on yours. Wherever you are measuring the coolant temp doesn't necessarily indicate it's that temp somewhere else in the system. I suggest you try and reduce the control temperature by 10 degrees even if that seems too low. Reducing the oil temperature would also have a knock on effect on the water temperature so that would also help.
The only other ways of suppressing detonation if that's what's ultimately causing the gasket failures is to reduce CR and if the pistons are seizing then bore clearance and ring gaps might need altering.
There's clearly no point just leaving everything stock if this particular installation is not reliable on stock settings. However I think lower coolant temps would probably solve it all.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Pumaracing, that all sound interesting. Would you think from the damage the gasket is letting go first and then plasma cutting it's way through the barrell? We have had on one of the failures a hole blown through the barrel just below the gasket, leaving a tiny bit of barrel and the gasket intact above the hole. This was only the one time though, the rest have been as the photo.
It is certainly feasible that the water temperatures accross the barrel are different, the water temperature is taken from near the outlet from the block so would be the average temp.
To reduce the water temperature, would you think that lowering the engine bay temp would have much of an effect on coolant temp? Our exhaust headers are very close to the engine, particuarly on the end that tends to blow through, could the radiated head from those have much effect? There is also no air passing over the engine, which as it is water cooled we though wouldn't casue any issues.
We have nearly doubled the size of the radiator since we started having the issue, but have also added the thermostat into the system. I suspect to run at a lower temp we will need to remove the thermostat as that is keeping it in the 80c range.
Pumaracing, that all sound interesting. Would you think from the damage the gasket is letting go first and then plasma cutting it's way through the barrell? We have had on one of the failures a hole blown through the barrel just below the gasket, leaving a tiny bit of barrel and the gasket intact above the hole. This was only the one time though, the rest have been as the photo.
It is certainly feasible that the water temperatures accross the barrel are different, the water temperature is taken from near the outlet from the block so would be the average temp.
To reduce the water temperature, would you think that lowering the engine bay temp would have much of an effect on coolant temp? Our exhaust headers are very close to the engine, particuarly on the end that tends to blow through, could the radiated head from those have much effect? There is also no air passing over the engine, which as it is water cooled we though wouldn't casue any issues.
We have nearly doubled the size of the radiator since we started having the issue, but have also added the thermostat into the system. I suspect to run at a lower temp we will need to remove the thermostat as that is keeping it in the 80c range.
This damage is caused by pre ignition, which should not be confused with detonation which often accompanies it.
You need to be looking in the combustion chamber area for somthing that is glowing red hot which is initiating combustion before the spark plug ignition event (this could be a plug of the wrong heat range).
The temperatures and pressures generated by true pre ignition are insanely high and will cause this sort of damage in no time.
You will often get detonation with pre ignition, but it is a by product of it and not the cause.
You need to be looking in the combustion chamber area for somthing that is glowing red hot which is initiating combustion before the spark plug ignition event (this could be a plug of the wrong heat range).
The temperatures and pressures generated by true pre ignition are insanely high and will cause this sort of damage in no time.
You will often get detonation with pre ignition, but it is a by product of it and not the cause.
I think it's time for one of those "are you all sitting comfortably?" moments. When an engine is being designed you hope from past experience you get the basic layout of the cooling system something like right but you never know what the exact flow pattern of the coolant will be until a test engine is on the dyno with temperature sensors dotted all over it. In a normal engine the water pump is in the block and the coolant inlet is in the head. The pump sucks water from the block and that is replaced by water flowing through the head gasket from the head. Or it all works in reverse but that makes no odds.
To start with the engine designer puts nice big flow holes in both block and head, bigger than they'll ever need to be, and then controls the actual flow distribution by changing the head gasket. That's why if you look at any head gasket it will have little round holes a couple of mm in diameter sitting over great big 10mm holes in block and head - just like yours does.
Chances are the engine will have hot spots such as between cylinder 2 and 3. The designer then increases the size of the control hole in the gasket there to boost the local flow and/or reduces the size of the ones at each end. Your gasket indeed has a larger hole on one side between 2 and 3 which was obviously running too hot in initial design.
Hopefully what you end up with is a nice balanced engine where the temps will always be hotter in the cylinder head where the heat is produced than at the bottom of the block but are the same across all cylinders. The temperature at the single control point will bear no resemblance to the actual temperature anywhere else in the block and head but it provides an indication that a reading of X degrees at the control point will mean Y degrees at some other point and all points will be at safe temperatures.
Engines lose heat by radiation, conduction, straight down the exhaust pipe and into the water and oil systems. It makes no odds what the relative percentages are in a given stock engine but if you change them then bad things may occur!
What you have done is reduced the heat lost by radiation so more must go into oil and water. What the engine has been patiently trying to tell you for apparently two years and a dozen attempts is these changes mean one end is now running hotter than the other and indeed both may be hotter than stock in certain places at the same given control temperature. So 80c at the stat may have once indicated 90c in the head on a stock engine and now its 100c at one end of the head and 95c at the other. It may indeed just be getting too hot on one side of the head but again that makes no odds to the cure.
You can't change the balance along the block without designing a new head gasket so you have to reduce the control temp until the engine says its happy again even at the hot end of the block which will mean the other end is a bit cool but that's better than grenading every race.
Instead of this you've been telling the engine [Cartman mode on] "Respect mah authoritah" [Cartman mode off] and trying to make it run at what you think is a normal control temp despite it constantly telling you it needs a lower one.
To start with the engine designer puts nice big flow holes in both block and head, bigger than they'll ever need to be, and then controls the actual flow distribution by changing the head gasket. That's why if you look at any head gasket it will have little round holes a couple of mm in diameter sitting over great big 10mm holes in block and head - just like yours does.
Chances are the engine will have hot spots such as between cylinder 2 and 3. The designer then increases the size of the control hole in the gasket there to boost the local flow and/or reduces the size of the ones at each end. Your gasket indeed has a larger hole on one side between 2 and 3 which was obviously running too hot in initial design.
Hopefully what you end up with is a nice balanced engine where the temps will always be hotter in the cylinder head where the heat is produced than at the bottom of the block but are the same across all cylinders. The temperature at the single control point will bear no resemblance to the actual temperature anywhere else in the block and head but it provides an indication that a reading of X degrees at the control point will mean Y degrees at some other point and all points will be at safe temperatures.
Engines lose heat by radiation, conduction, straight down the exhaust pipe and into the water and oil systems. It makes no odds what the relative percentages are in a given stock engine but if you change them then bad things may occur!
What you have done is reduced the heat lost by radiation so more must go into oil and water. What the engine has been patiently trying to tell you for apparently two years and a dozen attempts is these changes mean one end is now running hotter than the other and indeed both may be hotter than stock in certain places at the same given control temperature. So 80c at the stat may have once indicated 90c in the head on a stock engine and now its 100c at one end of the head and 95c at the other. It may indeed just be getting too hot on one side of the head but again that makes no odds to the cure.
You can't change the balance along the block without designing a new head gasket so you have to reduce the control temp until the engine says its happy again even at the hot end of the block which will mean the other end is a bit cool but that's better than grenading every race.
Instead of this you've been telling the engine [Cartman mode on] "Respect mah authoritah" [Cartman mode off] and trying to make it run at what you think is a normal control temp despite it constantly telling you it needs a lower one.
Just had another thought on this, does it have a coil over each plug or does it have HT leads?
The reason I ask, is that if it has leads and they run parallel and closely together, they could be picking up HT energy from each other, causing the very early ignition event which is clearly the cause of this damage.
Coolant temperature and combustion temperature are linked but not the same thing.
The reason I ask, is that if it has leads and they run parallel and closely together, they could be picking up HT energy from each other, causing the very early ignition event which is clearly the cause of this damage.
Coolant temperature and combustion temperature are linked but not the same thing.
oakdale said:
This damage is caused by pre ignition, which should not be confused with detonation which often accompanies it.
You need to be looking in the combustion chamber area for somthing that is glowing red hot which is initiating combustion before the spark plug ignition event (this could be a plug of the wrong heat range).
The temperatures and pressures generated by true pre ignition are insanely high and will cause this sort of damage in no time.
You will often get detonation with pre ignition, but it is a by product of it and not the cause.
Surely, if it was preignition, there would be some (probably lots) of damage evident on the piston crown? None evident in that image. You need to be looking in the combustion chamber area for somthing that is glowing red hot which is initiating combustion before the spark plug ignition event (this could be a plug of the wrong heat range).
The temperatures and pressures generated by true pre ignition are insanely high and will cause this sort of damage in no time.
You will often get detonation with pre ignition, but it is a by product of it and not the cause.
Looks over-heated to me but also wondering whether the head has been clamping properly in that area; not prone to warping are they? Has it ever been skimmed (badly perhaps)?
Also interested in the sump baffle plate. Is this to control surge under cornering/braking? If so, is it a tried and tested addition or a one off? If the latter, is it possible it's interfering with oil delivery somehow (I'd expect the front/rears of the piston/bore to smear rather than the side if so but maybe worth eliminating)
Pupp said:
Surely, if it was preignition, there would be some (probably lots) of damage evident on the piston crown? None evident in that image.
Looks over-heated to me but also wondering whether the head has been clamping properly in that area; not prone to warping are they? Has it ever been skimmed (badly perhaps)?
Also interested in the sump baffle plate. Is this to control surge under cornering/braking? If so, is it a tried and tested addition or a one off? If the latter, is it possible it's interfering with oil delivery somehow (I'd expect the front/rears of the piston/bore to smear rather than the side if so but maybe worth eliminating)
The piston looks damaged to me by the look of the bore.Looks over-heated to me but also wondering whether the head has been clamping properly in that area; not prone to warping are they? Has it ever been skimmed (badly perhaps)?
Also interested in the sump baffle plate. Is this to control surge under cornering/braking? If so, is it a tried and tested addition or a one off? If the latter, is it possible it's interfering with oil delivery somehow (I'd expect the front/rears of the piston/bore to smear rather than the side if so but maybe worth eliminating)
In an engine with a cast iron block and alloy piston you would see most of the damage on the piston due to its lower melting point but this engine has an alloy block with a silicon alloy liner containing magnesium.
I've just looked up the spec of this engine on google, 180 bhp @ 12500 rpm from a 998cc engine running at a cr of 12.4 to 1.
Bloody hell, no wonder it's melted!
oakdale said:
The piston looks damaged to me by the look of the bore.
In an engine with a cast iron block and alloy piston you would see most of the damage on the piston due to its lower melting point but this engine has an alloy block with a silicon alloy liner containing magnesium.
I've just looked up the spec of this engine on google, 180 bhp @ 12500 rpm from a 998cc engine running at a cr of 12.4 to 1.
Bloody hell, no wonder it's melted!
That looks like ally either from or smeared by the skirt of the piston (if transferred from the block). The crown appears undamaged by obvious det or preignition and as what you suggested is in in-chamber event, there would be indicators present right there.In an engine with a cast iron block and alloy piston you would see most of the damage on the piston due to its lower melting point but this engine has an alloy block with a silicon alloy liner containing magnesium.
I've just looked up the spec of this engine on google, 180 bhp @ 12500 rpm from a 998cc engine running at a cr of 12.4 to 1.
Bloody hell, no wonder it's melted!
looks to me like simple overheating as the damage is in the area with the least cooling.. not sure of the answer, could coolant flow be improved in that area with defectors/tubes or even a extra coolant feed/s tapped into the block?? or have you got oil cooling under the pistons could that be added or improved, or maybe run slighly wider clearances to allow for more piston expansion????
I wouldn't all be getting too hung up about whether it's det or pre-ignition or in fact neither. With such severe damage it's a bit hard to determine what came first or caused what. It may be as simple as an engine in such a high state of tune is going to be very susceptible to anything which takes it out of the ideal running condition. There may be a design weakness in the gasket seal in that area anyway and high or imbalanced temperature gradients could be distorting the block and head enough to push something over the edge.
The non standard exhaust system could also be having knock on effects on mixture distribution. If reducing the coolant temp doesn't cure it I'd be tempted to go to a less critical engine that can cope with being in a confined engine bay. I might also be tempted to try a thicker head gasket or a bit of chamber unshrouding to drop the CR which would make everything a lot less critical.
The non standard exhaust system could also be having knock on effects on mixture distribution. If reducing the coolant temp doesn't cure it I'd be tempted to go to a less critical engine that can cope with being in a confined engine bay. I might also be tempted to try a thicker head gasket or a bit of chamber unshrouding to drop the CR which would make everything a lot less critical.
Thanks for all the replies, it certainly seems we may have been overlooking the most important and simple things.
I would have replied earlier but I got sinbinned as my username wasn't within the rules.
I've managed to source enough spares for one more try on this engine so I think I might give the advice the Pumaracing has suggested a go. The hard part I think is going to be reducing the coolant temp by that amount. We've greatly increased the radiator surface area since the original install and this hasn't had much of an impact on temps so I suspect we aren't passing air over the radiators effectivly.
I've had a few ideas about ducting the engine bay, radiator and oil cooler which currently feed their hot air into the engine bay, which is probably compounding the heat problem but removing heat from the oil/water and then straight away adding it to the engine compartment heat that is generated from the exhaust etc.
We have in the past considered adding some small coolant bleed lines into the head. Directly above the failure point in the cylinder head there are some threaded core plugs, we have considered adding a bleed line to each of these to increase the flow in the area, problems being getting the hoses to seal well through the rocker cover due to lack of space and also without an engine dyno and lots of sensors we could be making things much worse.
I would have replied earlier but I got sinbinned as my username wasn't within the rules.
I've managed to source enough spares for one more try on this engine so I think I might give the advice the Pumaracing has suggested a go. The hard part I think is going to be reducing the coolant temp by that amount. We've greatly increased the radiator surface area since the original install and this hasn't had much of an impact on temps so I suspect we aren't passing air over the radiators effectivly.
I've had a few ideas about ducting the engine bay, radiator and oil cooler which currently feed their hot air into the engine bay, which is probably compounding the heat problem but removing heat from the oil/water and then straight away adding it to the engine compartment heat that is generated from the exhaust etc.
We have in the past considered adding some small coolant bleed lines into the head. Directly above the failure point in the cylinder head there are some threaded core plugs, we have considered adding a bleed line to each of these to increase the flow in the area, problems being getting the hoses to seal well through the rocker cover due to lack of space and also without an engine dyno and lots of sensors we could be making things much worse.
You could try enlarging the bleed holes in the head gasket slightly between 1 & 2 if the design allows you to do this. However it would at best be a very suck it and see exercise without temperature sensors installed everywhere.
I think logic dictates that if the problem only manifests on warmer days then cooling the engine to the same overall temps it experiences on colder days solves the problem. Fit a lower temperature thermostat and make sure the radiator can cope with whatever quantity of heat is chucked at it.
I think logic dictates that if the problem only manifests on warmer days then cooling the engine to the same overall temps it experiences on colder days solves the problem. Fit a lower temperature thermostat and make sure the radiator can cope with whatever quantity of heat is chucked at it.
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