Question for the Engine Experts
Discussion
I've recently been told that an owner of a car with extensive mods has handed their car over to a third party so it can be "Run In".
Am I right in assuming that running a car in simply mean to not rag / over rev the engine for the first 1000 or so miles?
If so, then it doesnt really take a smarty pants to do this.
Thanks in advance
Am I right in assuming that running a car in simply mean to not rag / over rev the engine for the first 1000 or so miles?
If so, then it doesnt really take a smarty pants to do this.
Thanks in advance
t out of it (technical engine term there) during the process.You can either be gentle for the first 1000 miles, then slowly work up, or the slightly more controversial method is to be gentle for the first 20 miles to make sure everything is where it should be, then overload the engine as much as you possibly can to seat the rings.
Google "running in an engine" for lots and lots of discussion!
Google "running in an engine" for lots and lots of discussion!
The1Driver said:
So is it rocket science. Does a car need to be given to an expert runner? lol
Certainly not. But at the same time, there are some completely and utter clueless ones out there who are totally brainless and would have no idea if anything was going wrong under the bonnet.So it can be safer for someone who does to run it in.
Not quite the sametype of engines but a while ago I was building air cooled deisel engines as a job ,up to 10 litres ,the range ran from little single cyl water pump engines to engines for tugs 36 litres + ,manufacturers spec said run for 1/2an hour at 1000rpm ,checking lube and cooling then take up to max rpm for at least another hour no load . Never got to work on a real biggy the 10 litre 6 cyls were scary enough con figs inc 1,2,3,4.5.6 staights V 's 6,8 .10 ,12 and 24 for the tugs .Hope this is of interest if not ignore it
sparkybean said:
I thought it was common knowledge that factory new engines are put onto engine dyno's and checked after assembly? Also if you do some googling it seems all the experienced engineers push their engines quite hard.
This is done with normal production engines, they are run at quite high RPM from a brand new state to check for oil leaks etc. There's a lot of crap talked about running in - I even saw a moron with a "Running in, please pass" sign in the back window the other day!
You can't run a car in on Dyno rollers, only keep it at a steady state and that isn't good for running in, but you can on a Hub Dyno.
You can put the car through a running in cycle on the hub dyno and go up and down the gears manually as if you were on the road. That's not something you can do on rollers.
Personally speaking i prefer the take it out and rag the nuts off it with a regimen of regular oil changes using mineral oil to start, swapping to semi-synth half way through, and then fully synth with the last oil change. First oil change should be done soon after the first handful of hard miles, then longer spaced periods there after. Some say it's not so good for the crank/bearings and others say the crank/bearings aren't affected any more so than the gentler method, but what is agreed is this method promotes good piston sealing.
If you have a problem with the build of the engine whether it's bad parts or the building thereof, a weakness will show itself pretty quickly with the rag it method. The longer running in period may disguise a fault temporarily because it's a much gentler method but eventually the engines weakness will show through the moment you start stressing it through either hard use or tuning.
However, if the build and parts are good then whichever way you run it in won't matter as it won't break down either way. The rag it method though should at least show problems up significantly sooner than later when you've spent more time and money on performance parts and tuning, and then it goes bang, then the first thing you're doing is blaming the tuner that's just mapped or is currently mapping it.
What concerns me about the gentler method is that you don't change oil for 1000miles. During this time all the little bits of metal that were left behind by the machining/parts/build process are circulating around the engine for a long time and have the potential for causing long term damage even with a good build.
You can put the car through a running in cycle on the hub dyno and go up and down the gears manually as if you were on the road. That's not something you can do on rollers.
Personally speaking i prefer the take it out and rag the nuts off it with a regimen of regular oil changes using mineral oil to start, swapping to semi-synth half way through, and then fully synth with the last oil change. First oil change should be done soon after the first handful of hard miles, then longer spaced periods there after. Some say it's not so good for the crank/bearings and others say the crank/bearings aren't affected any more so than the gentler method, but what is agreed is this method promotes good piston sealing.
If you have a problem with the build of the engine whether it's bad parts or the building thereof, a weakness will show itself pretty quickly with the rag it method. The longer running in period may disguise a fault temporarily because it's a much gentler method but eventually the engines weakness will show through the moment you start stressing it through either hard use or tuning.
However, if the build and parts are good then whichever way you run it in won't matter as it won't break down either way. The rag it method though should at least show problems up significantly sooner than later when you've spent more time and money on performance parts and tuning, and then it goes bang, then the first thing you're doing is blaming the tuner that's just mapped or is currently mapping it.
What concerns me about the gentler method is that you don't change oil for 1000miles. During this time all the little bits of metal that were left behind by the machining/parts/build process are circulating around the engine for a long time and have the potential for causing long term damage even with a good build.
ScoobieWRX said:
You can't run a car in on Dyno rollers, only keep it at a steady state and that isn't good for running in, but you can on a Hub Dyno.
You can put the car through a running in cycle on the hub dyno and go up and down the gears manually as if you were on the road. That's not something you can do on rollers.
Personally speaking i prefer the take it out and rag the nuts off it with a regimen of regular oil changes using mineral oil to start, swapping to semi-synth half way through, and then fully synth with the last oil change. First oil change should be done soon after the first handful of hard miles, then longer spaced periods there after. Some say it's not so good for the crank/bearings and others say the crank/bearings aren't affected any more so than the gentler method, but what is agreed is this method promotes good piston sealing.
If you have a problem with the build of the engine whether it's bad parts or the building thereof, a weakness will show itself pretty quickly with the rag it method. The longer running in period may disguise a fault temporarily because it's a much gentler method but eventually the engines weakness will show through the moment you start stressing it through either hard use or tuning.
However, if the build and parts are good then whichever way you run it in won't matter as it won't break down either way. The rag it method though should at least show problems up significantly sooner than later when you've spent more time and money on performance parts and tuning, and then it goes bang, then the first thing you're doing is blaming the tuner that's just mapped or is currently mapping it.
What concerns me about the gentler method is that you don't change oil for 1000miles. During this time all the little bits of metal that were left behind by the machining/parts/build process are circulating around the engine for a long time and have the potential for causing long term damage even with a good build.
I see no reason why you cannot run it in on a proper set of rollers. You can load the engine up just the same as with a hub dyno. Unless the rollers are crap.You can put the car through a running in cycle on the hub dyno and go up and down the gears manually as if you were on the road. That's not something you can do on rollers.
Personally speaking i prefer the take it out and rag the nuts off it with a regimen of regular oil changes using mineral oil to start, swapping to semi-synth half way through, and then fully synth with the last oil change. First oil change should be done soon after the first handful of hard miles, then longer spaced periods there after. Some say it's not so good for the crank/bearings and others say the crank/bearings aren't affected any more so than the gentler method, but what is agreed is this method promotes good piston sealing.
If you have a problem with the build of the engine whether it's bad parts or the building thereof, a weakness will show itself pretty quickly with the rag it method. The longer running in period may disguise a fault temporarily because it's a much gentler method but eventually the engines weakness will show through the moment you start stressing it through either hard use or tuning.
However, if the build and parts are good then whichever way you run it in won't matter as it won't break down either way. The rag it method though should at least show problems up significantly sooner than later when you've spent more time and money on performance parts and tuning, and then it goes bang, then the first thing you're doing is blaming the tuner that's just mapped or is currently mapping it.
What concerns me about the gentler method is that you don't change oil for 1000miles. During this time all the little bits of metal that were left behind by the machining/parts/build process are circulating around the engine for a long time and have the potential for causing long term damage even with a good build.
And I would be far more concerned with your engine builder who left all these bits of metal in your engine !!!
Anyone who builds an engine without thoroughly cleaning it first, needs a good kick in the stones.
Even after a good clean during the build there are still the tiniest bits of metal floating around leftover from the machining and build process. You can never get it spotlessly clean unless you're building engines in am almost clinical environment and have made sure everything is microscopically super clean before putting it all together.
Even then, from the the initial start at first turn and running in thereafter the engine generates more metal particles due to friction. After running in you hope the engine has loosened off a little bit and is generating less friction and less particles although during it's life it never stops generating metal particles due to normal wear and tear.
Is there a rolling road dyno around that can handle going up and down through gears and hard acceleration/deceleration cycles?? I know hub dynos can and do but not rollers.
Even then, from the the initial start at first turn and running in thereafter the engine generates more metal particles due to friction. After running in you hope the engine has loosened off a little bit and is generating less friction and less particles although during it's life it never stops generating metal particles due to normal wear and tear.
Is there a rolling road dyno around that can handle going up and down through gears and hard acceleration/deceleration cycles?? I know hub dynos can and do but not rollers.
ScoobieWRX said:
Even after a good clean during the build there are still the tiniest bits of metal floating around leftover from the machining and build process. You can never get it spotlessly clean unless you're building engines in am almost clinical environment and have made sure everything is microscopically super clean before putting it all together.
Even then, from the the initial start at first turn and running in thereafter the engine generates more metal particles due to friction. After running in you hope the engine has loosened off a little bit and is generating less friction and less particles although during it's life it never stops generating metal particles due to normal wear and tear.
Is there a rolling road dyno around that can handle going up and down through gears and hard acceleration/deceleration cycles?? I know hub dynos can and do but not rollers.
If you cannot clean an engine, you shouldnt be building engines.Even then, from the the initial start at first turn and running in thereafter the engine generates more metal particles due to friction. After running in you hope the engine has loosened off a little bit and is generating less friction and less particles although during it's life it never stops generating metal particles due to normal wear and tear.
Is there a rolling road dyno around that can handle going up and down through gears and hard acceleration/deceleration cycles?? I know hub dynos can and do but not rollers.
And I cant think of any rollers that cannot handle acceleration. How you choose to drive whilst on the rollers isnt the same thing. You could do a single in gear pull, or simply drive against the resistance applied.
If the rollers couldnt apply a load for you to drive against, what would be the point in having them ?
I've seen a number of well known so called professional engine builders/tuners build rooms and suffice to say i've seen cleaner dumps. With that amount of cross contamination it's no wonder engines can and do go bang so soon after a build when you have old and dismantled engines sitting right alongside brand new parts/builds. You wouldn't get changed in these build rooms never mind build an engine in them.
Even in the cleanest and well managed build rooms you can make sure parts are as clean as you can get them and the building of is as good as it can be but invariably you still get the tiniest bits of swarf/contamination coming off new or machined parts. There's not a huge amount you can do about that other than do an oil change pretty soon after the first stage of the running in process.
As for dyno rollers you can't accelerate/decelerate in the same manner as you would on the road for the puposes of running in like you can on a hub dyno. Equally i'd have said the rotating mass of dyno rollers make them hard to speed up and slow down quickly.
I've heard of rollers commonly being used for running in at various tuners shops but generally at different rates of steady state (something similar to the gentler 1000mile process) which isn't the same as hard and fast bursts of controlled acceleration building engine loads quickly though the gears which is the point of running a car in using the 'rag it' method.
You're no doubt going to disagree with me in which case please show me some rollers that can run in a car like a hub dyno or like on the road.
Even in the cleanest and well managed build rooms you can make sure parts are as clean as you can get them and the building of is as good as it can be but invariably you still get the tiniest bits of swarf/contamination coming off new or machined parts. There's not a huge amount you can do about that other than do an oil change pretty soon after the first stage of the running in process.
As for dyno rollers you can't accelerate/decelerate in the same manner as you would on the road for the puposes of running in like you can on a hub dyno. Equally i'd have said the rotating mass of dyno rollers make them hard to speed up and slow down quickly.
I've heard of rollers commonly being used for running in at various tuners shops but generally at different rates of steady state (something similar to the gentler 1000mile process) which isn't the same as hard and fast bursts of controlled acceleration building engine loads quickly though the gears which is the point of running a car in using the 'rag it' method.
You're no doubt going to disagree with me in which case please show me some rollers that can run in a car like a hub dyno or like on the road.
Are you guys running your engines without oil filters or something?? The places with high loads and tight clearances are all pressure fed from the oil system, and as you have an oil filter, the "build debris" just gets caught in that doesn't it?? General bits of grit or dirt floating round in the crankcase don't do any damage (assuming you literally haven't got a sump full of sand etc!)
Regarding running in on rollers, no problem to do that, in fact the mechanical inertia of a set of chassis rolls makes them idea to use as it simulates the cars actual inertia. (hub dynos use "simulated" inertia, where the system measures the acceleration of the system and applies a counter force to limit that acceleration. However, the cheaper systems don't fully simulate the "overun" condition where the rolls are required to drive the wheels. I have run hundreds of cars in on rollers, and generally the limiting factor is the vehicles cooling system being unable to cope with high loads for any period of time.
The best facilites for this are of course the fully climatic windtunnel rollers (Like MIRA's CWT facility) where you have a high power single roll absorber, with full motoring capability and accurate inertia simulation, coupled to climatically controlled full speed wind tunnel (-40 to 50degC, 0 to ~200 kph wind speed). Superb for everything, but pricey at around £8k-£12k a shift (depending on enviromental sim requirements).
Regarding running in on rollers, no problem to do that, in fact the mechanical inertia of a set of chassis rolls makes them idea to use as it simulates the cars actual inertia. (hub dynos use "simulated" inertia, where the system measures the acceleration of the system and applies a counter force to limit that acceleration. However, the cheaper systems don't fully simulate the "overun" condition where the rolls are required to drive the wheels. I have run hundreds of cars in on rollers, and generally the limiting factor is the vehicles cooling system being unable to cope with high loads for any period of time.
The best facilites for this are of course the fully climatic windtunnel rollers (Like MIRA's CWT facility) where you have a high power single roll absorber, with full motoring capability and accurate inertia simulation, coupled to climatically controlled full speed wind tunnel (-40 to 50degC, 0 to ~200 kph wind speed). Superb for everything, but pricey at around £8k-£12k a shift (depending on enviromental sim requirements).
ScoobieWRX said:
I've seen a number of well known so called professional engine builders/tuners build rooms and suffice to say i've seen cleaner dumps. With that amount of cross contamination it's no wonder engines can and do go bang so soon after a build when you have old and dismantled engines sitting right alongside brand new parts/builds. You wouldn't get changed in these build rooms never mind build an engine in them.
Even in the cleanest and well managed build rooms you can make sure parts are as clean as you can get them and the building of is as good as it can be but invariably you still get the tiniest bits of swarf/contamination coming off new or machined parts. There's not a huge amount you can do about that other than do an oil change pretty soon after the first stage of the running in process.
As for dyno rollers you can't accelerate/decelerate in the same manner as you would on the road for the puposes of running in like you can on a hub dyno. Equally i'd have said the rotating mass of dyno rollers make them hard to speed up and slow down quickly.
I've heard of rollers commonly being used for running in at various tuners shops but generally at different rates of steady state (something similar to the gentler 1000mile process) which isn't the same as hard and fast bursts of controlled acceleration building engine loads quickly though the gears which is the point of running a car in using the 'rag it' method.
You're no doubt going to disagree with me in which case please show me some rollers that can run in a car like a hub dyno or like on the road.
More to the point, show me rollers that cant ? Any load based dyno Ive seen would be able to.Even in the cleanest and well managed build rooms you can make sure parts are as clean as you can get them and the building of is as good as it can be but invariably you still get the tiniest bits of swarf/contamination coming off new or machined parts. There's not a huge amount you can do about that other than do an oil change pretty soon after the first stage of the running in process.
As for dyno rollers you can't accelerate/decelerate in the same manner as you would on the road for the puposes of running in like you can on a hub dyno. Equally i'd have said the rotating mass of dyno rollers make them hard to speed up and slow down quickly.
I've heard of rollers commonly being used for running in at various tuners shops but generally at different rates of steady state (something similar to the gentler 1000mile process) which isn't the same as hard and fast bursts of controlled acceleration building engine loads quickly though the gears which is the point of running a car in using the 'rag it' method.
You're no doubt going to disagree with me in which case please show me some rollers that can run in a car like a hub dyno or like on the road.
And I totally disagree. If you are having metal come off newly machined parts. They have either been machined wrong, or installed wrong.
And as Max says, what are oil filters for ?
If there is bare metal in your running in oil, you should be concerned.
Which parts exactly do you think should or be expected to shed metal into your oil ?
Oil filters don't catch everything and not everything finds it's way into the filter. There's also a filter/guard on the end of the oil pick up pipe to stop larger particles being sucked into the upper reaches of the engine but it doesn't stop bits being splashed up into the engine every time the crank dips a wick.
After the first oil change just pop a magnet in the oil and have a good rummage around and you'll feel the tiny sized particles of metal sticking to the magnet and you may even see or feel bits of grit in the oil. No big particels though if all works out well. Hopefully after the first oil change there are unlikely to be any more bits of grit or metal in the oil bigger than 8-10 microns in which case job done.
There are no shortage of badly built engines using cheap parts that aren't so well manufactured, and manufactured with either the biggest or very tightest of tolerences, or just plain bad manufacturing. There's plenty of opportunity for damage to be happening as bits of moving metal start to grind together. Badly fitted or fitting rings, bearings, wrongly torqued bolts, general bad assembly etc... etc... It's not uncommon and you hear the horror stories every day from engines going pop due to a bad build or swarf/dirt got into the build and caused the damage.
I'm not disputing you can't run an engine in using a rolling road, i've already said there are tuners that do it but you can't actually run in the engine using the 'rag it' type method, can you?
There are a few tuners i know of that have an engine dyno to test and run in engines. I know they rent engine dyno time too but it ain't cheap. For most of us it's an expensive way to run an engine in but perhaps not if your engine happens to be used in competiton and costs a fortune in the first place. Out of all three though the engine dyno would be my first choice if i could afford and warrant it.
They can do anything they like with the running in process and run programmed methodical 'rag it' like procedures depending on the engine, on similar lines to what you can do with a hub dyno.
Incidently both an engine and hub dyno use a kind of 'simulated inertia' system. I don't think that method is any the less legitimate than rollers, and if it provides greater flexibility, control and accuracy over the process then i'd rather use a hub dyno.
As i'm a tight arse though and i'd rather spend the money on other things i'll stick to running an engine in on the road with the 'rag it' method and 2-3 oil/filter changes just because i'm a bit anal about these things.
ETA: As far as engine cooling is concerned over sustained long term loading...While on the rollers, don't you have a dirty great big fan/blower for cooling airflow?
After the first oil change just pop a magnet in the oil and have a good rummage around and you'll feel the tiny sized particles of metal sticking to the magnet and you may even see or feel bits of grit in the oil. No big particels though if all works out well. Hopefully after the first oil change there are unlikely to be any more bits of grit or metal in the oil bigger than 8-10 microns in which case job done.
There are no shortage of badly built engines using cheap parts that aren't so well manufactured, and manufactured with either the biggest or very tightest of tolerences, or just plain bad manufacturing. There's plenty of opportunity for damage to be happening as bits of moving metal start to grind together. Badly fitted or fitting rings, bearings, wrongly torqued bolts, general bad assembly etc... etc... It's not uncommon and you hear the horror stories every day from engines going pop due to a bad build or swarf/dirt got into the build and caused the damage.
I'm not disputing you can't run an engine in using a rolling road, i've already said there are tuners that do it but you can't actually run in the engine using the 'rag it' type method, can you?
There are a few tuners i know of that have an engine dyno to test and run in engines. I know they rent engine dyno time too but it ain't cheap. For most of us it's an expensive way to run an engine in but perhaps not if your engine happens to be used in competiton and costs a fortune in the first place. Out of all three though the engine dyno would be my first choice if i could afford and warrant it.
They can do anything they like with the running in process and run programmed methodical 'rag it' like procedures depending on the engine, on similar lines to what you can do with a hub dyno.
Incidently both an engine and hub dyno use a kind of 'simulated inertia' system. I don't think that method is any the less legitimate than rollers, and if it provides greater flexibility, control and accuracy over the process then i'd rather use a hub dyno.
As i'm a tight arse though and i'd rather spend the money on other things i'll stick to running an engine in on the road with the 'rag it' method and 2-3 oil/filter changes just because i'm a bit anal about these things.
ETA: As far as engine cooling is concerned over sustained long term loading...While on the rollers, don't you have a dirty great big fan/blower for cooling airflow?
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Monday 29th August 00:56
8-10 microns isn't a poblem for most components.. Since cleanliness specs are normally in the 20micron dept. Most problems occur when trying to clean drill bores.. There is always debris in them, also cleaning crank drillings.. Burrs here eventually drag themselves loose and can cause catastrophic bearing failures even after running in.. this is the most common fault even on brand new engines that have gone through ultrasonic and high-pressure cleaning processes..
stevieturbo said:
If you cannot clean an engine, you shouldnt be building engines.
And I cant think of any rollers that cannot handle acceleration. How you choose to drive whilst on the rollers isnt the same thing. You could do a single in gear pull, or simply drive against the resistance applied.
If the rollers couldnt apply a load for you to drive against, what would be the point in having them ?
+1 about cleanliness, I ve had bo--o-ings from a very picky boss for having the engine shop door open!!!And I cant think of any rollers that cannot handle acceleration. How you choose to drive whilst on the rollers isnt the same thing. You could do a single in gear pull, or simply drive against the resistance applied.
If the rollers couldnt apply a load for you to drive against, what would be the point in having them ?
Edited by one eyed mick on Monday 29th August 10:27
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