Front mount intercooler advice
Discussion
Hi all,
I'm looking to add a front mount intercooler to my Peugeot 207 GTI 175. The intercooler set up i want to use will be a universal one due to the fact the Forge kit comes with a thinner crash bar and is very laggy from feedback i've read. I also think it will look alot better which is important if it's on show for all to view.
The intercooler i've found Is a apexi universal one that has a core size of 450x180x55MM with a maximum power capacity of around 350bhp, there is a 2.5" inlet / outlet. I plan on running forged internals and a hybrid turbo set up in the future with a absolute max power output of 300bhp.
I have read that the hot side should be less than the cold side. Is my understanding correct that by having narrower diameter pipe on the hot side it is quickly forced into the FMIC and by having the larger diameter on the cold side it gives it more time to cool before being introduced to the throttle body? Reducers will make it easy for me to increase the 2" pipe before the inlet.
My question is, is my understanding correct and if not, what diameter piping would i be best using? Also, Is the intercooler chosen really suitable?
Any advice grately appreciated, total noob with regards to tuning turbo engines but fairly practically minded.
I'm looking to add a front mount intercooler to my Peugeot 207 GTI 175. The intercooler set up i want to use will be a universal one due to the fact the Forge kit comes with a thinner crash bar and is very laggy from feedback i've read. I also think it will look alot better which is important if it's on show for all to view.
The intercooler i've found Is a apexi universal one that has a core size of 450x180x55MM with a maximum power capacity of around 350bhp, there is a 2.5" inlet / outlet. I plan on running forged internals and a hybrid turbo set up in the future with a absolute max power output of 300bhp.
I have read that the hot side should be less than the cold side. Is my understanding correct that by having narrower diameter pipe on the hot side it is quickly forced into the FMIC and by having the larger diameter on the cold side it gives it more time to cool before being introduced to the throttle body? Reducers will make it easy for me to increase the 2" pipe before the inlet.
My question is, is my understanding correct and if not, what diameter piping would i be best using? Also, Is the intercooler chosen really suitable?
Any advice grately appreciated, total noob with regards to tuning turbo engines but fairly practically minded.
Edited by r4dcu on Tuesday 15th November 00:39
Core sounds small, but may depend on actual design, boost required etc
People rating them for xyz bhp is a complete load of balls as it means nothing.
Pipework use whatever is handiest. If the turbo discharge is 2", then may as well stick with that.
And maybe use 2.5" from the exit to TB....but again, that depends what diameter of entry the TB has.
Certainly 2" would be more than adequate for only 350bhp though, on either side of the core.
People rating them for xyz bhp is a complete load of balls as it means nothing.
Pipework use whatever is handiest. If the turbo discharge is 2", then may as well stick with that.
And maybe use 2.5" from the exit to TB....but again, that depends what diameter of entry the TB has.
Certainly 2" would be more than adequate for only 350bhp though, on either side of the core.
Thanks for the reply.
Intercooler is possibly the largest I can fit due to the crash bar an undertray unfortunately. I've just double checked and apexi one isnt power rated, must have got confused with another IC.
I've been out and measured, both inlet and outlet of standard intercooler is 2.5" and both the standard boost pipes 2.5".
So am I ok to reduce inlet pipework and keep the outlet pipework at 2.5"? Was my reasoning correct?
Sorry for all the questions, i understand it is probably a case of hit and miss until you find a set up that performs well for each engine, im just overly cautious.
Intercooler is possibly the largest I can fit due to the crash bar an undertray unfortunately. I've just double checked and apexi one isnt power rated, must have got confused with another IC.
I've been out and measured, both inlet and outlet of standard intercooler is 2.5" and both the standard boost pipes 2.5".
So am I ok to reduce inlet pipework and keep the outlet pipework at 2.5"? Was my reasoning correct?
Sorry for all the questions, i understand it is probably a case of hit and miss until you find a set up that performs well for each engine, im just overly cautious.
r4dcu said:
Thanks for the reply.
Intercooler is possibly the largest I can fit due to the crash bar an undertray unfortunately. I've just double checked and apexi one isnt power rated, must have got confused with another IC.
I've been out and measured, both inlet and outlet of standard intercooler is 2.5" and both the standard boost pipes 2.5".
So am I ok to reduce inlet pipework and keep the outlet pipework at 2.5"? Was my reasoning correct?
Sorry for all the questions, i understand it is probably a case of hit and miss until you find a set up that performs well for each engine, im just overly cautious.
If the existing pipework is 2.5", why would you want to reduce it ? Use it as is.Intercooler is possibly the largest I can fit due to the crash bar an undertray unfortunately. I've just double checked and apexi one isnt power rated, must have got confused with another IC.
I've been out and measured, both inlet and outlet of standard intercooler is 2.5" and both the standard boost pipes 2.5".
So am I ok to reduce inlet pipework and keep the outlet pipework at 2.5"? Was my reasoning correct?
Sorry for all the questions, i understand it is probably a case of hit and miss until you find a set up that performs well for each engine, im just overly cautious.
r4dcu said:
I dunno everyone I've seen has reduced inlet to 2" and from what I've read running a reduced inlet improves air flow or is that a load of crap?
making a pipe smaller improves airflow ? So do the same idiots fit small bore exhausts ?Smaller air filters ?
2" is certainly adequate for your goals. But if your existing pipework is 2.5", and it still fits and is usable. It would be pretty damn stupid to go remaking it in smaller diameter.
You'd be amazed how many people have said to run a smaller diameter inlet pipe, not on 1.6 turbo's either. Hense the reason behind my question, Seems alot of hard work for no specific reason from what i can tell.
Not many people are running a FMIC set up on my car and if they are it's the Seat Sport one or Forge so there's alot of my own homework required.
Have heard the exhaust argument so many times, not as bad as the 1.1 boys thinking they're saxo requires a 3 inch system with a 5 jap tail pipe.
Not many people are running a FMIC set up on my car and if they are it's the Seat Sport one or Forge so there's alot of my own homework required.
Have heard the exhaust argument so many times, not as bad as the 1.1 boys thinking they're saxo requires a 3 inch system with a 5 jap tail pipe.
r4dcu said:
You'd be amazed how many people have said to run a smaller diameter inlet pipe, not on 1.6 turbo's either. Hense the reason behind my question, Seems alot of hard work for no specific reason from what i can tell.
I suspect it's one of those folk stories which does the rounds . . . bloke has turbo car and invests a lot of cash on inter cooler and remap etc then finds it's not as powerful as he was expecting. Some other bloke pops up in the pub and tells him to use smaller diameter pipework . . . so chap remakes some pipes and without knowing it fixes the leak he had in the original pipe and therefore thinks (and may even have dyno plot to 'prove it') that a smaller diameter pipe can make more power.I remember years ago when Forge started selling one of their bypass valves, testing it against the stock Bosch valve on an Audi TT. The Forge part was slower to activate and in some cases got stuck but the Internet arm chair tuners thought it was a brilliant 'upgrade' because it came in polished silver or shiny black and cost £70 so therefore must be better than a £28 piece of plastic. It was pointed out to them that several of the companies modifying 911 turbos thought the Bosch part was perfectly useful but it did't wash. (I believe Forge modified their valve after this so what you buy now probably works fine)
Funny you mention Forges valves, they are since charging £170 for the diverter valves!
A few people thought the VW tfsi blow off valve was a good addition to our engine but it keeps sticking as it doesn't fit properly.
Thanks for clearing all this up, seems a bit of a faff to have a diff diameter inlet and outlet, they've even made up a theory to justify it. Worth a google! lol
Should save me a few pounds on the reducers.
A few people thought the VW tfsi blow off valve was a good addition to our engine but it keeps sticking as it doesn't fit properly.
Thanks for clearing all this up, seems a bit of a faff to have a diff diameter inlet and outlet, they've even made up a theory to justify it. Worth a google! lol
Should save me a few pounds on the reducers.
The theory (Bernoulli's equation) of smaller bore pipe work is that you have an increased velocity with a reduction in diameter. Although this also increases charge temperature. This equation also goes part of the way to explain why you see many people porting heads and getting nowhere. The reduced velocities (combined with the removal of kind of 'shape') reduce the fuel atomisation. Its the same science behind jet engines but then you get into sonic flow etc and it really gets boring. But I digress.....
The velocity of air (post I/C) will be greater the smaller the pipe. Essentially reducing the time it takes your 'boost' to be delivered from the cooler to the inlet. This however comes back to bite you in the ass as when you are at full boost and a 3" bore would be preferential as the pressure differentials are much greater and you could get the flowrates you require.
'Air Flow' is a not as simple as a single figure and the optimisation of each part of the formula will have a different effect of the engine.
Stevie is correct in what he is saying although a 'BHP' rating can be calculated. Stick with what you got and don't go down unless you are getting outrageous lag, which I doubt as the factory has done much more research into this that we have.
Its a good book to get to grips with Forced Inducion without all the science.
http://www.amazon.com/Induction-Performance-Practi...
Sorry that does not really answer your question but I have written it now.
r4dcu said:
Hi all,
I'm looking to add a front mount intercooler to my Peugeot 207 GTI 175. The intercooler set up i want to use will be a universal one due to the fact the Forge kit comes with a thinner crash bar and is very laggy from feedback i've read. I also think it will look alot better which is important if it's on show for all to view.
The intercooler i've found Is a apexi universal one that has a core size of 450x180x55MM with a maximum power capacity of around 350bhp, there is a 2.5" inlet / outlet. I plan on running forged internals and a hybrid turbo set up in the future with a absolute max power output of 300bhp.
I have read that the hot side should be less than the cold side. Is my understanding correct that by having narrower diameter pipe on the hot side it is quickly forced into the FMIC and by having the larger diameter on the cold side it gives it more time to cool before being introduced to the throttle body? Reducers will make it easy for me to increase the 2" pipe before the inlet.
My question is, is my understanding correct and if not, what diameter piping would i be best using? Also, Is the intercooler chosen really suitable?
Any advice grately appreciated, total noob with regards to tuning turbo engines but fairly practically minded.
Off topic but have you got any details on where you are getting forged internals from?I'm looking to add a front mount intercooler to my Peugeot 207 GTI 175. The intercooler set up i want to use will be a universal one due to the fact the Forge kit comes with a thinner crash bar and is very laggy from feedback i've read. I also think it will look alot better which is important if it's on show for all to view.
The intercooler i've found Is a apexi universal one that has a core size of 450x180x55MM with a maximum power capacity of around 350bhp, there is a 2.5" inlet / outlet. I plan on running forged internals and a hybrid turbo set up in the future with a absolute max power output of 300bhp.
I have read that the hot side should be less than the cold side. Is my understanding correct that by having narrower diameter pipe on the hot side it is quickly forced into the FMIC and by having the larger diameter on the cold side it gives it more time to cool before being introduced to the throttle body? Reducers will make it easy for me to increase the 2" pipe before the inlet.
My question is, is my understanding correct and if not, what diameter piping would i be best using? Also, Is the intercooler chosen really suitable?
Any advice grately appreciated, total noob with regards to tuning turbo engines but fairly practically minded.
Edited by r4dcu on Tuesday 15th November 00:39
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