RV8 oil pressure / idiot seeks village
Discussion
Time to turn to the PH collective brain for advice and hopefully a solution...
Situation:
Rebuilt 3.9 litre Rover V8 has no oil pressure, the rebuild was triggered by low oil pressure found to be caused by a blocked oil pickup gauze. (see earlier post, Jan 2012).
Backgound:
Rebuild consisted of reground crank as journals were worn and "I might as well do it now as later" so +010" with new shells and requisite grinding to crank.
Also new gaskets and replacement front cover as oil pump area on previous one was a bit scored. The tadpole oil pressure relief valve was used with the oil filter housing which came with the "new" front cover. The oil filter is relocated by means of a Milner adaptor.
Symptom:
Run engine and no oil pressure - light on and gauge reads zero. It did show oil pressure when I first started it having primed the pump with the drill.
What I have tried:
Spin oil pump up using adaptor and electric drill - capillary gauge shows 30PSI and holding for quite a while
Stripped off plenum / inlet manifold and rocker covers and can see oil spurting out of the cam followers and rocker gear. Likewise I removed the sump and a main bearing cap (number 4) and that was wet with oil.
The pressure relief tadpole popped out with no persuasion when I removed the cap and spring so I guess that isn't sticking open.
I did wonder whether the dizzy wasn't seating on the oil pump drive but it clearly is.
Theory - when the engine is turning the oil pressure is not being maintained - WHY?
I have rebuild a few Rover V8s and never had such trouble, likewise with 2286 Land Rover engines.
Help, I am at my wit's end and will shortly seek employment as a village idiot.
Situation:
Rebuilt 3.9 litre Rover V8 has no oil pressure, the rebuild was triggered by low oil pressure found to be caused by a blocked oil pickup gauze. (see earlier post, Jan 2012).
Backgound:
Rebuild consisted of reground crank as journals were worn and "I might as well do it now as later" so +010" with new shells and requisite grinding to crank.
Also new gaskets and replacement front cover as oil pump area on previous one was a bit scored. The tadpole oil pressure relief valve was used with the oil filter housing which came with the "new" front cover. The oil filter is relocated by means of a Milner adaptor.
Symptom:
Run engine and no oil pressure - light on and gauge reads zero. It did show oil pressure when I first started it having primed the pump with the drill.
What I have tried:
Spin oil pump up using adaptor and electric drill - capillary gauge shows 30PSI and holding for quite a while
Stripped off plenum / inlet manifold and rocker covers and can see oil spurting out of the cam followers and rocker gear. Likewise I removed the sump and a main bearing cap (number 4) and that was wet with oil.
The pressure relief tadpole popped out with no persuasion when I removed the cap and spring so I guess that isn't sticking open.
I did wonder whether the dizzy wasn't seating on the oil pump drive but it clearly is.
Theory - when the engine is turning the oil pressure is not being maintained - WHY?
I have rebuild a few Rover V8s and never had such trouble, likewise with 2286 Land Rover engines.
Help, I am at my wit's end and will shortly seek employment as a village idiot.
silly question, is your skew gear (probably on the old dissy tail) actually mating with the oil pump drive shaft ? You turn it with a drill down the dissy hole with a slotted shaft persumably? Does the dissy when slotted back into place actually mate with the pump drive?
(take off pump cover, try turning gears to see if they are locked to the cam? You have remembered to put the cam skew gear on right??? ;-)
(take off pump cover, try turning gears to see if they are locked to the cam? You have remembered to put the cam skew gear on right??? ;-)
Max_Torque said:
silly question, is your skew gear (probably on the old dissy tail) actually mating with the oil pump drive shaft ? You turn it with a drill down the dissy hole with a slotted shaft persumably? Does the dissy when slotted back into place actually mate with the pump drive?
(take off pump cover, try turning gears to see if they are locked to the cam? You have remembered to put the cam skew gear on right??? ;-)
pretty sure it is because when I tried to refit the dizzy and the oil pump drive tang was incorrectly oriented the dizzy wouldn't seat on the timing cover. I will remove the dizzy again in the morning and check that everything is OK at the drive end.(take off pump cover, try turning gears to see if they are locked to the cam? You have remembered to put the cam skew gear on right??? ;-)
If I'd fitted the cam skew gear incorrectly then I suppose that the engine wouldn't run at all?
thank you for the suggestions! Plenty to check in the morning.
Have you tried filling the oil pump with vaseline. Fills up the gaps long enough to draw proper volumes of oil into the pump and fill it up. As the engine runs, the vaseline gets dissolved by the oil and causes no harm to the engine. I've done this in the past and it worked. As my brother has reminded me, (his words): "its not uncommon at all, they are A s
t to prime and keep their oil pressure to start with".
t to prime and keep their oil pressure to start with". The pump is clearly primed as he gets oil pressure when he spins the pump with a drill down the dissy hole!
This suggests:
1) there is oil in the sump
2) the pick up pipe or strainer has been fitted / isn't blocked
3) the pump is capable of moving oil (no slipping gears on drive shaft etc
4) suggests the oil relief valve might be working
5) suggests the oil circuit is complete and not "leaking" back into the crankcase (i assume if it were an external leak it would have been spotted!)
So this leaves a couple of options:
1) the pump is not beeing spun fast enough when the engine is idling to create pressure. Hence either the pump is not pumping enough oil or the oil system is using excessive oil flow
2) the pump is not beening spun at all, when the engine is running. I don't think putting the oil pump drive gear on backwards makes it spin backwards from memory (was >20years ago when i last worked on a RV8!)
I would suggest that the OP trys to spin the pump slowly with a drill, say 100rpm and see if it makes oil pressure with a stationary engine (best case as very little oil "consumption" by the bearings. From memory, when priming with a drill you could easily feel the load come onto the drill as it primed, and if you suddenly stopped spinning the drill the pump would actually turn the drill (in the opposite direction) as the residual oil presure in the galleries forces its way back to the sump through the gears.
If the engine now has fuel injection via MS, then i assume the dissy is being used simply to send a "cam trigger" edge signal, or possibly not at all if not sequentially fuelled ?
This suggests:
1) there is oil in the sump
2) the pick up pipe or strainer has been fitted / isn't blocked
3) the pump is capable of moving oil (no slipping gears on drive shaft etc
4) suggests the oil relief valve might be working
5) suggests the oil circuit is complete and not "leaking" back into the crankcase (i assume if it were an external leak it would have been spotted!)
So this leaves a couple of options:
1) the pump is not beeing spun fast enough when the engine is idling to create pressure. Hence either the pump is not pumping enough oil or the oil system is using excessive oil flow
2) the pump is not beening spun at all, when the engine is running. I don't think putting the oil pump drive gear on backwards makes it spin backwards from memory (was >20years ago when i last worked on a RV8!)
I would suggest that the OP trys to spin the pump slowly with a drill, say 100rpm and see if it makes oil pressure with a stationary engine (best case as very little oil "consumption" by the bearings. From memory, when priming with a drill you could easily feel the load come onto the drill as it primed, and if you suddenly stopped spinning the drill the pump would actually turn the drill (in the opposite direction) as the residual oil presure in the galleries forces its way back to the sump through the gears.
If the engine now has fuel injection via MS, then i assume the dissy is being used simply to send a "cam trigger" edge signal, or possibly not at all if not sequentially fuelled ?
Max_Torque said:
The pump is clearly primed as he gets oil pressure when he spins the pump with a drill down the dissy hole!
This suggests:
1) there is oil in the sump
2) the pick up pipe or strainer has been fitted / isn't blocked
3) the pump is capable of moving oil (no slipping gears on drive shaft etc
4) suggests the oil relief valve might be working
5) suggests the oil circuit is complete and not "leaking" back into the crankcase (i assume if it were an external leak it would have been spotted!)
So this leaves a couple of options:
1) the pump is not beeing spun fast enough when the engine is idling to create pressure. Hence either the pump is not pumping enough oil or the oil system is using excessive oil flow
2) the pump is not beening spun at all, when the engine is running. I don't think putting the oil pump drive gear on backwards makes it spin backwards from memory (was >20years ago when i last worked on a RV8!)
I would suggest that the OP trys to spin the pump slowly with a drill, say 100rpm and see if it makes oil pressure with a stationary engine (best case as very little oil "consumption" by the bearings. From memory, when priming with a drill you could easily feel the load come onto the drill as it primed, and if you suddenly stopped spinning the drill the pump would actually turn the drill (in the opposite direction) as the residual oil presure in the galleries forces its way back to the sump through the gears.
If the engine now has fuel injection via MS, then i assume the dissy is being used simply to send a "cam trigger" edge signal, or possibly not at all if not sequentially fuelled ?
Hello,This suggests:
1) there is oil in the sump
2) the pick up pipe or strainer has been fitted / isn't blocked
3) the pump is capable of moving oil (no slipping gears on drive shaft etc
4) suggests the oil relief valve might be working
5) suggests the oil circuit is complete and not "leaking" back into the crankcase (i assume if it were an external leak it would have been spotted!)
So this leaves a couple of options:
1) the pump is not beeing spun fast enough when the engine is idling to create pressure. Hence either the pump is not pumping enough oil or the oil system is using excessive oil flow
2) the pump is not beening spun at all, when the engine is running. I don't think putting the oil pump drive gear on backwards makes it spin backwards from memory (was >20years ago when i last worked on a RV8!)
I would suggest that the OP trys to spin the pump slowly with a drill, say 100rpm and see if it makes oil pressure with a stationary engine (best case as very little oil "consumption" by the bearings. From memory, when priming with a drill you could easily feel the load come onto the drill as it primed, and if you suddenly stopped spinning the drill the pump would actually turn the drill (in the opposite direction) as the residual oil presure in the galleries forces its way back to the sump through the gears.
If the engine now has fuel injection via MS, then i assume the dissy is being used simply to send a "cam trigger" edge signal, or possibly not at all if not sequentially fuelled ?
I tried running the pump slowly this morning - no pressure was made and I could feel that the pump has lost it's prime. This convinces me that the problem is related to the block / timing cover interface. Upon removing the timing cover I could see that the gasket was a little crinkled around the oil galleries. I now have thicker grey gaskets with much larger sealing faces to replace the red type which had blue silicone on each side (like a thin bead).
The distributor engages with the oil pump drive.
Fuel injection is irrelevant but I am using 14CUX with a distributor ignition.
I will take some photos and then reassemble.
thank you for the suggestions!
100SRV
100SRV said:
Max_Torque said:
The pump is clearly primed as he gets oil pressure when he spins the pump with a drill down the dissy hole!
This suggests:
1) there is oil in the sump
2) the pick up pipe or strainer has been fitted / isn't blocked
3) the pump is capable of moving oil (no slipping gears on drive shaft etc
4) suggests the oil relief valve might be working
5) suggests the oil circuit is complete and not "leaking" back into the crankcase (i assume if it were an external leak it would have been spotted!)
So this leaves a couple of options:
1) the pump is not beeing spun fast enough when the engine is idling to create pressure. Hence either the pump is not pumping enough oil or the oil system is using excessive oil flow
2) the pump is not beening spun at all, when the engine is running. I don't think putting the oil pump drive gear on backwards makes it spin backwards from memory (was >20years ago when i last worked on a RV8!)
I would suggest that the OP trys to spin the pump slowly with a drill, say 100rpm and see if it makes oil pressure with a stationary engine (best case as very little oil "consumption" by the bearings. From memory, when priming with a drill you could easily feel the load come onto the drill as it primed, and if you suddenly stopped spinning the drill the pump would actually turn the drill (in the opposite direction) as the residual oil presure in the galleries forces its way back to the sump through the gears.
If the engine now has fuel injection via MS, then i assume the dissy is being used simply to send a "cam trigger" edge signal, or possibly not at all if not sequentially fuelled ?
Hello,This suggests:
1) there is oil in the sump
2) the pick up pipe or strainer has been fitted / isn't blocked
3) the pump is capable of moving oil (no slipping gears on drive shaft etc
4) suggests the oil relief valve might be working
5) suggests the oil circuit is complete and not "leaking" back into the crankcase (i assume if it were an external leak it would have been spotted!)
So this leaves a couple of options:
1) the pump is not beeing spun fast enough when the engine is idling to create pressure. Hence either the pump is not pumping enough oil or the oil system is using excessive oil flow
2) the pump is not beening spun at all, when the engine is running. I don't think putting the oil pump drive gear on backwards makes it spin backwards from memory (was >20years ago when i last worked on a RV8!)
I would suggest that the OP trys to spin the pump slowly with a drill, say 100rpm and see if it makes oil pressure with a stationary engine (best case as very little oil "consumption" by the bearings. From memory, when priming with a drill you could easily feel the load come onto the drill as it primed, and if you suddenly stopped spinning the drill the pump would actually turn the drill (in the opposite direction) as the residual oil presure in the galleries forces its way back to the sump through the gears.
If the engine now has fuel injection via MS, then i assume the dissy is being used simply to send a "cam trigger" edge signal, or possibly not at all if not sequentially fuelled ?
I tried running the pump slowly this morning - no pressure was made and I could feel that the pump has lost it's prime. This convinces me that the problem is related to the block / timing cover interface. Upon removing the timing cover I could see that the gasket was a little crinkled around the oil galleries. I now have thicker grey gaskets with much larger sealing faces to replace the red type which had blue silicone on each side (like a thin bead).
The distributor engages with the oil pump drive.
Fuel injection is irrelevant but I am using 14CUX with a distributor ignition.
I will take some photos and then reassemble.
thank you for the suggestions!
100SRV
Is it possible that an incorrect gasket fitting had opened up a "leak" path between pump inlet and outlet where those drillings go through the block/front cover interface? At high pump speeds the extra flow could have been enough to make some pressure, but at idle, perhaps not.
If you can face it, take off the sump and check the strainer/pick up orientation, sealing to the feed drilling in the block (otherwise pump can suck air), and even height off the sump floor.
Problem solved and exposes a different one!
New gasket between front cover and block, refitted old front cover as the "new" one had damage around the suction gallery which meant that the raised land wasn't sealing properly and causing the pump to lose it's prime or suck air depending upon engine state.
New problem is that 6 and 8 aren't firing. I have checked the 'plug gaps and leads as well as the firing order. The 'plugs are wet too so injectors OK.
Next stop is a compression test but the head gaskets are new...
Thank you for all the suggestions!
100SRV
New gasket between front cover and block, refitted old front cover as the "new" one had damage around the suction gallery which meant that the raised land wasn't sealing properly and causing the pump to lose it's prime or suck air depending upon engine state.
New problem is that 6 and 8 aren't firing. I have checked the 'plug gaps and leads as well as the firing order. The 'plugs are wet too so injectors OK.
Next stop is a compression test but the head gaskets are new...
Thank you for all the suggestions!
100SRV
If you've been running without oil pressure, and persumably just idling cold for a short period, you might have just flooded those plugs? Especially if the tappets had not been pumped up, causing some cyls to be even richer than they should? I'd get the plugs dried up and stuck back in as a first step. Extremely unlikely to be a HG issue, generally the cyls still fire unless it's a massive failure!
Max_Torque said:
If you've been running without oil pressure, and persumably just idling cold for a short period, you might have just flooded those plugs? Especially if the tappets had not been pumped up, causing some cyls to be even richer than they should? I'd get the plugs dried up and stuck back in as a first step. Extremely unlikely to be a HG issue, generally the cyls still fire unless it's a massive failure!
The engine has run at idle and faster for probably around 15 minutes and the fault remains. I am thinking of pulling the rocker cover and rockers off RH side and re-torquing the head bolts - comments?Also suggested was a HT problem...all things to sort in the morning as the folks who live above my garage are back home now...
Max_Torque said:
Are you totally sure they haven't tunnelled through their floor and are deliberately sabotaging your noisey car? ;-)
I did wonder that, the bloke is a miserable git always arguing with his cute gym-bunny girlfriend. The gym bunny always has a smile, chat and quite often tight lycra.Oddly enough the crack in the building was blamed on my car - nothing to do with the road behind and the supermarket trucks regularly trundling past...I was friends with the previous owner (Mk 2 Escort resto-mod) and he said the crack was there long before I moved in.
I know who I suspect!
the best thing to do with the misfire is to see if you can move it.
eg from bank to bank or to different cyclinders.
do the simple stuff first, swap plugs,ht leads round etc.
if you still have issues check connectors to the fuel injectors.
only do one thing at a time!! or you will not know what the problem was
also good tip is to use an old ty wrap and see if it melts on each exhuat post/pipe.
did it run on all 8 cylinders to start with??
hope this helps
alancovkid
eg from bank to bank or to different cyclinders.
do the simple stuff first, swap plugs,ht leads round etc.
if you still have issues check connectors to the fuel injectors.
only do one thing at a time!! or you will not know what the problem was
also good tip is to use an old ty wrap and see if it melts on each exhuat post/pipe.
did it run on all 8 cylinders to start with??
hope this helps
alancovkid
alancovkid said:
the best thing to do with the misfire is to see if you can move it.
eg from bank to bank or to different cyclinders.
do the simple stuff first, swap plugs,ht leads round etc.
if you still have issues check connectors to the fuel injectors.
only do one thing at a time!! or you will not know what the problem was
also good tip is to use an old ty wrap and see if it melts on each exhuat post/pipe.
did it run on all 8 cylinders to start with??
hope this helps
alancovkid
Thankyou for all the replies and suggestions...eg from bank to bank or to different cyclinders.
do the simple stuff first, swap plugs,ht leads round etc.
if you still have issues check connectors to the fuel injectors.
only do one thing at a time!! or you will not know what the problem was
also good tip is to use an old ty wrap and see if it melts on each exhuat post/pipe.
did it run on all 8 cylinders to start with??
hope this helps
alancovkid
The engine ran on all 8 before I stripped it.
The spark plugs from 6 and 8 were swapped with other cylinders - they were wet with petrol so the injectors are OK.
All the HT leads were removed and tested with a multimeter - 22kOhms to 15kOhms depending upon length.
I will do more investigating in the morning - there is a spare set of leads and dizzy cap in the garage. I'll try the ty-rap trick but the smoke from the LH exhaust manifold burning off oily hand prints suggests that side is OK!
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