Westfield Won't Start (Electrical) ARRRRRRGH!!!
Discussion
Tried EVERYTHING:
All earths undone, filed, wire brushed and replaced
Starter motor stripped bushes and bearings replaced
Starter motor leads stripped and re-crimped and soldered
crank sensor replaced
Ht leads checked
4 month old battery checked and ok
new spark plugs
ignition coil replaced
2:0 litre Zetec, twin 45mm Dellortos.
There just doesn't seem enough power to turn the engine over, it seems like the engine is flooding, small puffs of black smoke from the exhaust and the battery drains and runs out of power.
I took the car for a rolling road tune up at Sanspeed last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly. They said there's not enough power from the battery so the ECU is cutting the spark!
It starts up fine with a jump start from a running car.
Someone has suggested that the ignition might be over advanced but Im sure Sanspeed would have noticed this when they hooked it all up to their computer!
Does anybody know where I can take it in SW London/Surrey/North Sussex to get it sorted?
ITS DRIVING ME NUTS!
HEEEEEELP!
All earths undone, filed, wire brushed and replaced
Starter motor stripped bushes and bearings replaced
Starter motor leads stripped and re-crimped and soldered
crank sensor replaced
Ht leads checked
4 month old battery checked and ok
new spark plugs
ignition coil replaced
2:0 litre Zetec, twin 45mm Dellortos.
There just doesn't seem enough power to turn the engine over, it seems like the engine is flooding, small puffs of black smoke from the exhaust and the battery drains and runs out of power.
I took the car for a rolling road tune up at Sanspeed last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly. They said there's not enough power from the battery so the ECU is cutting the spark!
It starts up fine with a jump start from a running car.
Someone has suggested that the ignition might be over advanced but Im sure Sanspeed would have noticed this when they hooked it all up to their computer!
Does anybody know where I can take it in SW London/Surrey/North Sussex to get it sorted?
ITS DRIVING ME NUTS!
HEEEEEELP!
If it starts without issue when hooked up to a car with a good battery then there is either an issue with the connections of your battery or your battery is faulty.
When you say the battery has been checked what do you mean?
Have you fully charged the battery off the car with a battery charger?
What does a hydrometer test of each cell say?
A motor factor local to me cheerfully admitted they get about 1/4 of their lower priced batteries returned defective within the warranty period. As the battery I was returning was off my own car - I'm trade so he must have thought it was a customer's car - I was less tham amused, esp when said replacement died within a few months!
When you say the battery has been checked what do you mean?
Have you fully charged the battery off the car with a battery charger?
What does a hydrometer test of each cell say?
A motor factor local to me cheerfully admitted they get about 1/4 of their lower priced batteries returned defective within the warranty period. As the battery I was returning was off my own car - I'm trade so he must have thought it was a customer's car - I was less tham amused, esp when said replacement died within a few months!
Thanks guys....Its an MBE ignition only ECU, as I said Sanspeed http://www.sanspeed.co.uk/ have checked all the ECU settings and I really dont think there's a problem there.
As far as the battery is concerned, (Excused my ignorance here!) I took it back to the place I bought it from, they put a machine on it that said 'battery good'! I presume this doesn't necessarily mean its ok so I'll get it looked at properly by the supplier.
As far as the battery is concerned, (Excused my ignorance here!) I took it back to the place I bought it from, they put a machine on it that said 'battery good'! I presume this doesn't necessarily mean its ok so I'll get it looked at properly by the supplier.
+1 if anything at least try to borrow a known good battery of the right amperage or better 
Lordbenny said:
Im in the process of doing just that.
Had my battery checked again and came back:
Sate of Health - 100%
State of Charge - 100%
Ive a PP9 Duracell here...perfectly healthy and fully charged. Doesnt mean it's suitable for an engine.Had my battery checked again and came back:
Sate of Health - 100%
State of Charge - 100%
And who knows how it was tested to achieve those results.
OP,when did you last charge the battery with a battery charger?
Just running the engine for a bit after having to jump start due to flattening the battery will not put much charge into it, far less fully charge it.
Fully charge this battery with a charger off the car then see what happens.
Just running the engine for a bit after having to jump start due to flattening the battery will not put much charge into it, far less fully charge it.
Fully charge this battery with a charger off the car then see what happens.
paintman said:
OP,when did you last charge the battery with a battery charger?
Just running the engine for a bit after having to jump start due to flattening the battery will not put much charge into it, far less fully charge it.
Fully charge this battery with a charger off the car then see what happens.
Regularly!Just running the engine for a bit after having to jump start due to flattening the battery will not put much charge into it, far less fully charge it.
Fully charge this battery with a charger off the car then see what happens.
What happens?.......It still wont start!
So I'm now being told that I need to know what was the ampage recorded on cranking on the test bench where I had the starter motor stripped before I part with £100 for a racing battery.
I didnt ask the guys to test the cranking ampage!
I'm also being told that the Sierra Cosworth starter motor is slow cranking. Can anyone confirm this?
Finally, I am being told that, yes, a bigger battery may help if it has a high cold cranking amp, but that is getting around the problem rather fixing it.
The plugs are new, they arn't the problem
Looks like this is going to run for a little while yet!
I didnt ask the guys to test the cranking ampage!
I'm also being told that the Sierra Cosworth starter motor is slow cranking. Can anyone confirm this?
Finally, I am being told that, yes, a bigger battery may help if it has a high cold cranking amp, but that is getting around the problem rather fixing it.
The plugs are new, they arn't the problem
Looks like this is going to run for a little while yet!
Lordbenny said:
I didnt ask the guys to test the cranking ampage!
Finally, I am being told that, yes, a bigger battery may help if it has a high cold cranking amp, but that is getting around the problem rather fixing it.
Well the cranking amperage is rather important....especially as you dont have enough and your engine wont start. That should be rather obvious.Finally, I am being told that, yes, a bigger battery may help if it has a high cold cranking amp, but that is getting around the problem rather fixing it.
And if your current battery is too small....how can you possibly think buying battery that is suitable as not fixing the problem ?
There is clearly something badly wrong with your setup.
Solution is simple. You need a battery powerful enough to start your engine. The wiring to the battery needs to be suitably sized for the application.
And of course the starter needs to be capable.
I doubt any modern starter isnt capable, unless your running mega high comrpession, which is unlikely.
Just fix those basic items and the engine will start no problem.
Lordbenny said:
I took the car for a rolling road tune up at Sanspeed last week and once the car starts its running really sweetly.
Both the above extracts from your first post are are screaming at you that the existing battery is either duff (despite the test results) or it is under powered.- They said there's not enough power from the battery so the ECU is cutting the spark!
- It starts up fine with a jump start from a running car.
The second extract might be seen as misleading because the battery being used to jump start is also drawing power from its own alternator so there is extra voltage and power available to rotate your lump AND to provide sufficient voltage for the sparks.
Moving on:
Lordbenny said:
So I'm now being told that I need to know what was the ampage recorded on cranking on the test bench where I had the starter motor stripped before I part with £100 for a racing battery.
Not necessarily, you simply need to face the probability that your existing battery is just not man enough for the job,Regarding the cost, you may not have heard that "Only the Rich can Afford Cheap Car Batteries"
To find out how and why, settle down with my PDF Essay available from this link on my web pages CLICKY to convince yourself that the £100 will be well spent.
Moving on:
I thoroughly endorse the comment (already made) that your battery to starter connections - both positive and engine earth/negative - must be clean and bright with absolutely no hidden corrosion.
Good luck!
Edited by honestjohntoo on Tuesday 30th October 22:00
This is the latest from the Locost forum.....
I'll put it in very simple terms your engine is trying to run backwards ! because it has way too much ignition advance at cranking RPM.
Also the current the starter took in a bench test is nothing to do with the current it draws under the load trying to start the engine under normal conditions never mind the massive current the starter will draw fighting an engine that is trying to run backwards.
So you want to stick in a massive battery something like a type 096 that would be more at home in a 3 litre diesel, it may well have enough ummph to fight the kick back and get it started but you are lugging around an extra massive weight. So how come there are guys on the forum running Zetecs with tiny 14ah motorcycle batteries ?
If there was anything wrong with your battery it would have shown up under test, volts drop tests on batteries measure the voltage a battery produces under a massive current load, nearly three times what would be demanded by a 2 lite petrol engine during a cold start in current weather conditions.
As for your "tuners" do they not posses a a volt meter and timing light to run very basic tests ? A simple cranking voltage test with the ignition disconnected would tell a lot as would checking the ignition timing at cranking speed
I'll put it in very simple terms your engine is trying to run backwards ! because it has way too much ignition advance at cranking RPM.
Also the current the starter took in a bench test is nothing to do with the current it draws under the load trying to start the engine under normal conditions never mind the massive current the starter will draw fighting an engine that is trying to run backwards.
So you want to stick in a massive battery something like a type 096 that would be more at home in a 3 litre diesel, it may well have enough ummph to fight the kick back and get it started but you are lugging around an extra massive weight. So how come there are guys on the forum running Zetecs with tiny 14ah motorcycle batteries ?
If there was anything wrong with your battery it would have shown up under test, volts drop tests on batteries measure the voltage a battery produces under a massive current load, nearly three times what would be demanded by a 2 lite petrol engine during a cold start in current weather conditions.
As for your "tuners" do they not posses a a volt meter and timing light to run very basic tests ? A simple cranking voltage test with the ignition disconnected would tell a lot as would checking the ignition timing at cranking speed
stevieturbo said:
It seems solving a simple problem is beyond your abilities.
How polite! Although bunging in a bigger, better battery seems to be the easy fix I just wanted to know from a few people if that was the right thing to do. It seems, however, that the more people I ask the more differing answers I get!
As far as being 'beyond my abilities' Your'e damned right it is....I have no idea about electrics!
Edited by Lordbenny on Tuesday 30th October 22:43
If I've understood correctly, you mentioned in a previous post that you're using a Sierra Cosworth starter motor. Is there any reason for this (or was it just handy)? I'm wondering if the lower compression ratio it was designed for could be part of the problem.
Also, I'm assuming this has been a problem from the start and not a fault that has recently occured. Is this correct?
Also, I'm assuming this has been a problem from the start and not a fault that has recently occured. Is this correct?
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