Wanted Rover K series 160bhp+ upgrade
Discussion
Not sure if you can get that much power and the tractabilty you need for trials. My 1.6 makes 125 without any head work and on TF cams, but even those are bit peaky for trials use I would think peak torque at 3000. What sort of power band were you looking for?
cant upload the graph atm
cant upload the graph atm
Edited by SMGB on Thursday 24th January 12:13
SMGB said:
Not sure if you can get that much power and the tractabilty you need for trials. My 1.6 makes 125 without any head work and on TF cams, but even those are bit peaky for trials use I would think peak torque at 3000. What sort of power band were you looking for?
cant upload the graph atm
Sorry, wrong terminology we tend to call autotests "test trials" this side of the pond. Ideal engine is a tractable torquey screamer!! Yeah I know, every way bar flying. I intend to do some retro type events after a 30 year gap spent poncing about at circuit racing and rallyX and er em ...golf!cant upload the graph atm
Edited by SMGB on Thursday 24th January 12:13
OK that stacks up. My TF has a sports cat, toyosport stainless back box a Pipercross foam filter in the standard plastics , which are a lot better than the Fs , and a ZandF remap. Per Aldon they make 110 to 114 out of the box. Cams and headwork could get another 10 or so without making it undriveable, The head is very restrictive on these engines. An Emerald and Jenvey throttle bodies maybe another 10 so you should be there or thereabouts. Are you restricted to 1600cc for th class you want to enter? The 1.8K would be better bet for that sort of power with tractabilty, although it wont want to rev like the short stroke 1.6.
edit, there was DVA head with Piper 633s on ebay this week which made £430, bargain for someone.
edit, there was DVA head with Piper 633s on ebay this week which made £430, bargain for someone.
SMGB said:
OK that stacks up. My TF has a sports cat, toyosport stainless back box a Pipercross foam filter in the standard plastics , which are a lot better than the Fs , and a ZandF remap. Per Aldon they make 110 to 114 out of the box. Cams and headwork could get another 10 or so without making it undriveable, The head is very restrictive on these engines. An Emerald and Jenvey throttle bodies maybe another 10 so you should be there or thereabouts. Are you restricted to 1600cc for th class you want to enter? The 1.8K would be better bet for that sort of power with tractabilty, although it wont want to rev like the short stroke 1.6.
edit, there was DVA head with Piper 633s on ebay this week which made £430, bargain for someone.
Yes I do want to stick to 1600 for class reasons and to facilitate higher revs, which the 1800 does not appear to like. I have cold air plenum with a K&N filter with direct cold air feed on the induction side and a freeflow fabricated manifiold with 2" bore straight through exhaust system.edit, there was DVA head with Piper 633s on ebay this week which made £430, bargain for someone.
From what I read elsewhere the 633 cams may be too wild for my application but on the same post I just read they were expounding the virtues of TF135 cams and a 52mm thottle body along with a well ported head could give a nice useable 150-ish BHP.
Cheers
Peter
The 52mm throttle body may be a bit of overkill on your engine, it gives about 1 BHP more per Mark at ZandF and loses some tractability. There is a great selection of cams on the Piper site with power bands given. The 633s are no longer in the catalogue but were not that wild. The Cams in the 115/135 have a lot more lift and the overlap is more than the Piper fast road they used to offer for the MGF 
. I really like them in my car with the other mild tuning it really comes alive at 5000rpm and has plenty of torque from 2000 up so you can connect with it in normal road driving.
If you get a MEMS3 Mark at Zand F could remap it for you if you post it, a lot cheaper than the Emerald. however you will be able to experiment more with the Emerald, and have a fallback map to switch to if you find you have tinkered too much. K series Midgets are just such great cars, there are some amazing examples over here, plus some 200BHP MK I Sprites, not with factory suspension and brakes though!
. I really like them in my car with the other mild tuning it really comes alive at 5000rpm and has plenty of torque from 2000 up so you can connect with it in normal road driving. If you get a MEMS3 Mark at Zand F could remap it for you if you post it, a lot cheaper than the Emerald. however you will be able to experiment more with the Emerald, and have a fallback map to switch to if you find you have tinkered too much. K series Midgets are just such great cars, there are some amazing examples over here, plus some 200BHP MK I Sprites, not with factory suspension and brakes though!
633 cams will be your best bet, on either a plenum or TBs. the trick is to time them correctly.
To clarify cam choice..
Type.---- duration. --- lift
Stock. 248. 8.8mm
Tf135. 252. 9.3mm
Bp270. 260. 9.6mm
633. 264. 10mm
1320. 268. 10mm
The TF135 cams are quite mild, you would be lucky to see 150bhp with those and a head port, you would need a bit more duration , say the bp270s or 633s. VVC exhaust cams are pretty much the same profile as the TF135 if you wanted to do things on the cheap.
If you are looking for 160BHP then 633 or 1320 cams with TBs , Emerald and a decent exhaust would get you there.
An alternative approach would be a full big valve head port with 633 cams on your existing plenum and a modified TB to sharpen up the throttle response. The cams would need to be timed correctly to get the best from them and to run properly on the stock ECU, a remap from Mark at Z & F would be worth having.
If you combined the headwork and TBs you should see around 175-180BHP and very good torque.
The idea that the 1800 doesn't like to rev seems a little skewed to me, in practice with the right setup they can be screamers and will always deliver more torque.
Dave
To clarify cam choice..
Type.---- duration. --- lift
Stock. 248. 8.8mm
Tf135. 252. 9.3mm
Bp270. 260. 9.6mm
633. 264. 10mm
1320. 268. 10mm
The TF135 cams are quite mild, you would be lucky to see 150bhp with those and a head port, you would need a bit more duration , say the bp270s or 633s. VVC exhaust cams are pretty much the same profile as the TF135 if you wanted to do things on the cheap.
If you are looking for 160BHP then 633 or 1320 cams with TBs , Emerald and a decent exhaust would get you there.
An alternative approach would be a full big valve head port with 633 cams on your existing plenum and a modified TB to sharpen up the throttle response. The cams would need to be timed correctly to get the best from them and to run properly on the stock ECU, a remap from Mark at Z & F would be worth having.
If you combined the headwork and TBs you should see around 175-180BHP and very good torque.
The idea that the 1800 doesn't like to rev seems a little skewed to me, in practice with the right setup they can be screamers and will always deliver more torque.
Dave
Edited by DVandrews on Friday 25th January 06:07
Thank you both for your most helpful advice. Clearly the K series is new territory to me and I am trying to learn as much as I can about what they like/respond best to in terms of mods. I was a BLMC overseas technical apprentice back in the early 70's, and it was all A series then.
Having had race and rally cross, using all steel Ford push rods, turbo Cosworths , Metro 6R4, Porsche RSR etc in the meantime , I have a better understanding of them than the later Rover/MG powertrains (total ignorance!)
I am probably guilty here in getting in far too deep in modifying this engine way beyond what is needed, the reality is that 140 is most likely more than enough for the intended use. But one tends to get sucked in by the challenge, in reality ,I do not intend to do very many events and will use the Midget more for faffing about the locality and the odd spin up the mountains.
I do want to stick to 1600cc for class reasons and I remain a sceptic of longer stroke engines, the linear piston speeds, at high revs, get too high for standard items. The engine is in good nick and if I had to rebuild it at some stage, I would go with proper forged pistons etc. In autotests it is not unusual to have to hold on to first gear on the rev limiter quite often, as you lose too much time changing up and down for only a couple of seconds.
My original post should have probably included a target budget, even with my existing plenum and exhaust system adding a modified head, cams, vernier, Tbs and an Emerald, we are talking the thick end of 3K. So if I rephrase my request to see what I can achieve for say 1000-1200 quid would probably be the more sensible. From what I have read to date, it seems these engines really respond well to improved breathing.
Thank you for your patience
Cheers
Peter
Having had race and rally cross, using all steel Ford push rods, turbo Cosworths , Metro 6R4, Porsche RSR etc in the meantime , I have a better understanding of them than the later Rover/MG powertrains (total ignorance!)
I am probably guilty here in getting in far too deep in modifying this engine way beyond what is needed, the reality is that 140 is most likely more than enough for the intended use. But one tends to get sucked in by the challenge, in reality ,I do not intend to do very many events and will use the Midget more for faffing about the locality and the odd spin up the mountains.
I do want to stick to 1600cc for class reasons and I remain a sceptic of longer stroke engines, the linear piston speeds, at high revs, get too high for standard items. The engine is in good nick and if I had to rebuild it at some stage, I would go with proper forged pistons etc. In autotests it is not unusual to have to hold on to first gear on the rev limiter quite often, as you lose too much time changing up and down for only a couple of seconds.
My original post should have probably included a target budget, even with my existing plenum and exhaust system adding a modified head, cams, vernier, Tbs and an Emerald, we are talking the thick end of 3K. So if I rephrase my request to see what I can achieve for say 1000-1200 quid would probably be the more sensible. From what I have read to date, it seems these engines really respond well to improved breathing.
Thank you for your patience
Cheers
Peter
Thanks a lot for that post Dave. I have never driven a modified 1.8 and found the factory spec ones in TF 135s and Rovers to be dull plodders. I suppose thats the usual BL managment snatching defeat from the jaws of engineering victory.
I dont intend doing anything more to our TF it has no problem keeping up with MGF Trophys or V8 MGBs on the road and is capable of more than 50 MPG, although high 40s is more normal for road use TBH. When you say, modifoed throttle body do you mean the 52mm one? I have seen on the T-bar people remove the "wedge" from the butterfly which is supposed to aid a controlled launch and they say this helps, is that right or are they fooling themselves? I might go that far if it really works.
I dont intend doing anything more to our TF it has no problem keeping up with MGF Trophys or V8 MGBs on the road and is capable of more than 50 MPG, although high 40s is more normal for road use TBH. When you say, modifoed throttle body do you mean the 52mm one? I have seen on the T-bar people remove the "wedge" from the butterfly which is supposed to aid a controlled launch and they say this helps, is that right or are they fooling themselves? I might go that far if it really works.
In your situation, I'd be inclined to stick a 1.8 VVC head on - it's a better head than the standard one with bigger ports and valves, and since the only difference between the 1.8 and 1.6 is stroke, it should bolt right up.
Piper do a kit to do away with the VVCness of the head, which comes with warmer cams. Obviously no figures for your situation, but a bone stock 1.8 VVC makes 160hp so you will be pretty close to your target already I would think.
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/32/948/pip...
Piper do a kit to do away with the VVCness of the head, which comes with warmer cams. Obviously no figures for your situation, but a bone stock 1.8 VVC makes 160hp so you will be pretty close to your target already I would think.
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/32/948/pip...
If you go to this website www.dvapower.com then follow the link to the K engine page there may be some answers there for you.
Dave
Dave
DVandrews said:
If you go to this website www.dvapower.com then follow the link to the K engine page there may be some answers there for you.
Dave
Fantastic information, thank you, and sooo many choices, I am starting to lose the run of myself again!! I am now thinking, a ported flowed head with VVC exhaust cams + a remapped ECU along with my existing plenum and exhaust system should have me pretty well in the 145-150 bhp range.Dave
Do the VVC cams have the facility to take a distributor drive?
Thanks again guys
Peter
peterdalkey said:
DVandrews said:
If you go to this website www.dvapower.com then follow the link to the K engine page there may be some answers there for you.
Dave
Fantastic information, thank you, and sooo many choices, I am starting to lose the run of myself again!! I am now thinking, a ported flowed head with VVC exhaust cams + a remapped ECU along with my existing plenum and exhaust system should have me pretty well in the 145-150 bhp range.Dave
Do the VVC cams have the facility to take a distributor drive?
Thanks again guys
Peter
Dave
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