Water injection

[jontysafe]

I have a Westfield Cosworth turbo with a chargecooler and as with all these installations air charge temps are the enemy.

I`m after some advice on a kit which isn`t only boost regulated but boost and intake air temp. regulated. Looking at Aquamist systems it seems that they are only boost mappable.

I am not the most adept at these things and I`m sure it can be done through a temp sensor making the system live so when both boost goes over a certain threshold and the temp threshold is reached it activates.

Does anyone have experience of this?

[stevieturbo]

jontysafe said:

I have a Westfield Cosworth turbo with a chargecooler and as with all these installations air charge temps are the enemy.

I`m after some advice on a kit which isn`t only boost regulated but boost and intake air temp. regulated. Looking at Aquamist systems it seems that they are only boost mappable.

I am not the most adept at these things and I`m sure it can be done through a temp sensor making the system live so when both boost goes over a certain threshold and the temp threshold is reached it activates.

Does anyone have experience of this?

The benefits of WI are more than simply cooler air temps.

Aquamists are boost or load mappable which is far better. I guess if you wanted a setup controlled via air temp, then you might look to using your ecu to control the system if it is capable.

But there is nothing whatsoever wrong with how Aquamists control theirs. Again, the biggest benefits are not from simply cooler charge temps, but the knock suppression and cooler chamber temps WI offers.
But it will of course cool the charge temps too.

[NotNormal]

I used to run the fully mappable Aquamist system about 10 years ago so no doubt it's been updated a lot these days. Was a good system and worked great (as long as you kept on top of blocked jets which was quite common). I didn't have it linked up to temperature activation though (just boost), but like you mention I can't imagine its that hard to retro fit if not offered by them as you just need a temp switch to initiate the system.

I'm not sure what engine management you run in your Westfield however, but I helped a friend build his Dax Rush a few years ago which runs a 400bhp (currently) C20LET engine and we have an Autronic ECU managing it. This ECU has the ability to run water injection based on temp and boost if required so if you are running aftermarket management it may be worth checking if other ECU's have a similar function.

As yet we don't need WI on the Dax but when the boost starts to get increased its comforting to know that WI can be added if needed as I'm sure you are aware there's only so much space available in the nosecone of a 7 type car.

[jontysafe]

This is the system I have been advised to go for.

http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-063-hfs3-v3-pwm...

The rough fuel/water ratio is for every 10 ltrs fuel you would map at 1-1.5 ltrs water. So I have a 26ltr fuel tank and worse case scenario would be 3.9 ltrs water and that is permanently driving on boost which of course I don`t.

The reason I was looking at a temp controlled system is I thought I`d be using a tank of water every trip and knowing me it would run out but it seems it wouldn't so temp switch isn`t really needed.

This way I can keep the chargecooler and associated install and not have to buy and relocate an intercooler.

I may still invest in a turbo cooler rad......now where to put that! I may position it in the V8 bonnet vent, but that`s on top of the engine.

Looking at positioning the jet post cooler pre air temp sensor, any thoughts?

[NotNormal]

I ran my jet at the exit of the intercooler so it had a bit longer to mix with the charge air before it arrived at the inlet manifold and it only operated at boost pressures over 1 bar. For road use it's quite surprising how little water is used as in reality there are limited times you can actually pin the throttle for that long for the system to come into effect.

Just make sure you have a level sensor in your water tank linked to a light on your dash or similar as this is extremely useful.

[Evoluzione]

If it's more a case of lowering the intake charge temp then maybe fit a better cooler.
What kind of charge cooler is fitted and can it be made more efficient?

A decent air-air intercooler can be fitted for a similar price to the WI kit. Whilst there are good gains to be had from WI, it's more upkeep, complication and something to go wrong...

[williamp]

I remember reading years ago an article from Paul Rosche (sp?) about the 80s BMW F1 engines. He said there were massive gains with water injection upto a point, the nothing. "Afterall, water doesn't burn" was a comment I remember reading

[jontysafe]

Evoluzione said:

If it's more a case of lowering the intake charge temp then maybe fit a better cooler.
What kind of charge cooler is fitted and can it be made more efficient?

A decent air-air intercooler can be fitted for a similar price to the WI kit. Whilst there are good gains to be had from WI, it's more upkeep, complication and something to go wrong...

if I had room for a better set up it would be in like a shot. I have spoken to Pro-Alloy about a chargecooler set up they have installed in a couple of high power Westies but they too needed water injection. All the 500bhp+ cosworth westfields run water injection.
For the moment I`m keeping boost at about 1.3bar, but eventually on a track day I`ll want to turn it up as the engine has been built for it.
I`m also going to speak to Spec-R who are local as I`d actually rather have an air/air intercooler.

[Evoluzione]

jontysafe said:

if I had room for a better set up it would be in like a shot. I have spoken to Pro-Alloy about a chargecooler set up they have installed in a couple of high power Westies but they too needed water injection. All the 500bhp+ cosworth westfields run water injection.
For the moment I`m keeping boost at about 1.3bar, but eventually on a track day I`ll want to turn it up as the engine has been built for it.
I`m also going to speak to Spec-R who are local as I`d actually rather have an air/air intercooler.

But why doesn't it work properly?

Something is inefficient or too small, maybe you can identify what it is and improve what you have. Common suspects:

Rad or pump too small
Not enough water in system - easy to remedy with an extra or bigger tank situated anywhere you like.
Actual charge cooler unit ineffective.

Sometimes there are very poorly designed systems out there.

[stevieturbo]

Obviously a Westfield is a small car so there wouldnt be the same space available as a passenger car.

Is the car track only, or would you carry a passenger at times ? ie space available there for a chargecooler and water reservoir, freeing up space for a much larger front mounted rad.
Then modify the inlet manifold for entry from the passenger area.

Any pics or details of the existing parts ? It really does seem that it only takes a relatively small chargecooler to yield great results.
The area most seem to fall down that I've heard of locally are they use tiny front rads, dont have enough water capacity and they use crap pumps.

[jontysafe]

Apologies for not thanking everyone that`s chipped in btw.

There`s a couple of pics on this thread:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I do use the passenger seat, although my wife hates going out in it, my son and neighbour loves it!

ETA- just seen vid of your Granada Stevie, what`s the spec?

Edited by jontysafe on Saturday 20th July 11:09

[stevieturbo]

It does look like you have room for a much larger unit in front of the engine if you wanted. Not sure whether you need that or not though.

Also, I assume the front rad is the one at the front ? ie, you arent passing hot air from the engine rad through the chargecooler rad ?

I think it would be worth monitoring water temps in the system at present.

Mainly water going into the engine core, and out of it. To see if the frontal rad is doing it's job, and also to see if the actual engine core is doing anything.

Charge temps before and after the IC unit would help too.

[jontysafe]

stevieturbo said:

It does look like you have room for a much larger unit in front of the engine if you wanted. Not sure whether you need that or not though.

Also, I assume the front rad is the one at the front ? ie, you arent passing hot air from the engine rad through the chargecooler rad ?

I think it would be worth monitoring water temps in the system at present.

Mainly water going into the engine core, and out of it. To see if the frontal rad is doing it's job, and also to see if the actual engine core is doing anything.

Charge temps before and after the IC unit would help too.

Yes the chargecooler rad is in front next to oil cooler. I intend to do this after summer, I.e monitoring temps. What could be done is relocating oil cooler, using a high efficiency radiator for charge cooler and a larger chargecooler. May still install water injection for track use.

The actual engine cooling circuit is pretty good, I was stuck on the A303 today in the heat and it reached 90 and stuck there.
Really I need a live mapping session as well as the car is frighteningly thirsty.
Also does 1 bar of boost at 4200rpm with a GT3076r .82 sound about right? I`m thinking it`s a bit late? Maybe should be 3700?

[stevieturbo]

You'd be better asking the boost question over on Passion Ford or something.
But it certainly doesnt sound bad to me. It's not a small turbo, and you've only a 2.0 engine.

Check out the temps to see how effective the current setup is, no sense spending money if there isnt actually a problem

And throughout the entire thread...havent actually seen you state any charge temps either ?

[jontysafe]

I`m in the process of installing a sensor, don't actually have any readings yet. Probably would be fine at 1.3 bar, I just want to head possible track day problems off.

[Evoluzione]

jontysafe said:

I`m in the process of installing a sensor, don't actually have any readings yet. Probably would be fine at 1.3 bar, I just want to head possible track day problems off.

You need to take an air temp reading before the cooler and after to see how effective it is.
Also a before and after water temp reading to see how effective the rad is at cooling and the actual CC core is at transferring heat to the water.

[stevieturbo]

Can you not access ecu data ? Whoever tuned the car should be able to hook up and check temps.

Something like Innovate's TC-4 would allow you 4 x thermocouples and be able to log them.

Although it might not be the cheapest route

[jontysafe]

stevieturbo said:

Can you not access ecu data ? Whoever tuned the car should be able to hook up and check temps.

Something like Innovate's TC-4 would allow you 4 x thermocouples and be able to log them.

Although it might not be the cheapest route

I Can`t at the mo no, tis running a weber L8 with a Pectel board and a custom written chip from Motorsport developments. However it is going to be live mapped so I will get more of an idea then.

[stevieturbo]

MSD would be able to tell you if charge temps are actually something you need to work on.

[chuntington101]

Has anyone tried using the Ford Cossworth 4x4 intercooler cores? Single cores seem to work great for the bike powered cars up to and over 400bhp. Thinking two of the cores stacked on top of each other should provide plenty of cooling and be a lot lighter than a charger-cooler system.

Obviously air to air cores are much thicker than the charge-cooler radiators and this could impact engine cooling.

Is there any room to remote mount an additional radiator for the charge cooler somewhere else on the car? Maybe at the rear?