Hydraulic lifter failure on a K series

[johny105]

Hi I have recently done the HG on a 140k 99plate kseries. I replaced the head as the old one was cracked. Rebuilt and run all good.
Today I got a phonecall from the owner saying it sounds like a diesel.
I went over and had a listen and it sounds as though the lifters are getting no oil to them.( I will get a vid up shortly)
I took the cover off and there is plenty of oil.
I checked the timing and all is good.
Also another report is that the car is totally gutless and won't pull away at all.

This has all developed after 2 weeks of normal use.

Suggestions?

Thanks

Johny

here is the youtube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbOfx02YEw4

[Sardonicus]

Although you have oil coming up to the cams have you checked the oil pressure? the gutless problem may be connected if enough valves are not getting adequate lift (i.e tappets bleeding down) The K when fitted to the Freelander hardly as a surplus of power anyway so needs all the help it can get

[DVandrews]

If the wrong sealant is used in the cam ladder (silicone instead of anaerobic) the oil feeds to the followers can clog and prevent oil delivery, also on some heads the oil delivery holes to the follower bores can be misaligned with the charge grooves on the followers, this can lead to bleed down of the followers. OTOH the follower may be trousered, they are a simple device. I would remove the cam cover and for each pair of followers, turn the engine so that the peak of the cam is pointing away from the follower, then see if the follower can be pressed down, if so then it is the faulty one. If the oil level is low then oil aeration can occur, this will lead to rattling followers. I have several sets of good ones here if you are in need of some.

Dave

Edited by DVandrews on Saturday 12th October 13:57

[johny105]

thankyou for your replies.
I dont have the kit to do an oil pressure test But i'm going to try and cobble something together.
I'M going to get the car over to my house and take it to bits again, luckily the owner goes to america for a month on wednesday and i have the week off.

any other suggestions are welcomed

[Pumaracing]

I would suggest that from the noise and symptoms it's 99.9% certain that this is not a hydraulic lifter failure. It's a lack of oil pressure to all the lifters which are therefore not pumping up and opening the valves properly. Whether this is from an oil pump / pump relief valve failure or a blockage in the oil supply from the block to the head or within the head is another matter. If you have good oil pressure inside the block and to the crank and bearings at the normal pressure take off point then it's the latter. If not it's obviously in the bottom end and could be the oil pump drive, the relief valve stuck open or a blocked sump strainer.

Not much point stripping anything down further until you can get an oil pressure reading and see where this points you.

[cannondale]

Have you checked the catalytic convertor? The convertor ceramics disintegrated on my old rover and after fitting a second hand cat it was running as normal again.

Worth a check.

[Pumaracing]

And a failed catalytic converter will cause hydraulic lifter tapping noises how exactly?

[cannondale]

Pumaracing said:

And a failed catalytic converter will cause hydraulic lifter tapping noises how exactly?

Is it definitely a hydraulic problem? Was only a suggestion. Don't necessarily have to do anything about checking the cat.

[johny105]

first off, WOW! a reply from pumaracing like a sort of PH engine celebrity in my eyes(sad i know)
secondly i've had the sealent thing pointed out to me on the landrover4x4 forum so i'm going to check this as the tube i have had gone hard in the nozzle so i had to whip a bit more off giving a wide thick bead.

not got the car back at mine until later today (hopefully) so in the meantime i'm going to get a pressure gauge


thankyou for your replys.


johny

[Pumaracing]

johny105 said:

the tube i have had gone hard in the nozzle so i had to whip a bit more off giving a wide thick bead.

johny

The laws of probability seem to be pointing inexorably to what I suspect you already surmise is the problem. The amount of sealant required between what are basically nearly perfect flat machined surfaces to start with is miniscule. Just the merest smear from a drop or two on your fingertip or a very fine bead that is then spread even more thinly with a roller so it ends up as a layer just a couple of thou thick. Then wipe off any that has already gone past the mating surfaces onto the sides of the ladder. I actually suspect that the K series could almost manage without any sealant at all as long as the carrier surfaces are not scratched enough to create oil leakage paths.

The only things that require a bead of sealant, and then only one maybe 3mm in diameter, are those like sump gaskets where the gasket is thick and compressible and the flange bolting to it is thin, flexible and imprecise.

Between machined and rigid surfaces any sealant at all that squeezes out really indicates an excess and a potential future problem. I'd be very careful about checking and cleaning out every lifter feed oilway before putting it back together and of course the correct thin liquid type anaerobic sealant is a must and anything remotely "silicony" a definite no-no.

[Sardonicus]

Pumaracing said:

The laws of probability seem to be pointing inexorably to what I suspect you already surmise is the problem. The amount of sealant required between what are basically nearly perfect flat machined surfaces to start with is miniscule. Just the merest smear from a drop or two on your fingertip or a very fine bead that is then spread even more thinly with a roller so it ends up as a layer just a couple of thou thick. Then wipe off any that has already gone past the mating surfaces onto the sides of the ladder. I actually suspect that the K series could almost manage without any sealant at all as long as the carrier surfaces are not scratched enough to create oil leakage paths.

The only things that require a bead of sealant, and then only one maybe 3mm in diameter, are those like sump gaskets where the gasket is thick and compressible and the flange bolting to it is thin, flexible and imprecise.

Between machined and rigid surfaces any sealant at all that squeezes out really indicates an excess and a potential future problem. I'd be very careful about checking and cleaning out every lifter feed oilway before putting it back together and of course the correct thin liquid type anaerobic sealant is a must and anything remotely "silicony" a definite no-no.

Not done a K head gasket in a couple of years now but previous to this did loads and always used sealant in the area's shown for the reason's Puma states a thin bead of Wurth RTV was my preferred sealer, lots of people slate RTV but IMO it's because many dont know how to use it correctly i.e in moderation and on totally grease free surfaces (this bit is imperative)

Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 13th October 17:37

[DVandrews]

The problem with using RTV is that any excess sets solid wherever it iss extruded, this can then peel off and block your pickup, or block the oil ways it surrounds. Anaerobic sealants only set in the abscence of oxygen, so any extruded from the join will simply wash away without causing a problem. I would NEVER use RTV inside an engine, I have seen far too many that have suffered due to blocked oil pickups etc., particularly the K series.

The reason people us RTV rather than the correct Anaerobic sealant is that is 1/30th of the price.

Check your followers as I suggested, if you have more than 2 that are soft then you have an ol delivery problem, just one could simply be a duffer.

Dave

[DVandrews]

The success or failure of something is not measured by the number of times it succeeds but more by the incidence and consequences of failures. You may not have had a problem, however In my experience very few know how much is the correct amount of sealant to apply, the salient point is that if you overdo RTV mayhem can result, if you overdo anaerobic sealant no harm is done. In such a situation as this where anaerobic sealant is recommended it would be foolhardy to use the incorrect sealant, Anaerobic sealant is recommended for a reason, RTV can and will give issues.

In the last month I have seen two K series heads with bearing and cam damage due to incorrect sealant used in the cam ladder, over the last 15 years I have seen many many more.

It would be irresponsible of me not to recommend binning the RTV and buying the correct Anaerobic sealant.

Dave

[Evoluzione]

DVandrews said:

The success or failure of something is not measured by the number of times it succeeds but more by the incidence and consequences of failures. You may not have had a problem, however In my experience very few know how much is the correct amount of sealant to apply, the salient point is that if you overdo RTV mayhem can result, if you overdo anaerobic sealant no harm is done. In such a situation as this where anaerobic sealant is recommended it would be foolhardy to use the incorrect sealant, Anaerobic sealant is recommended for a reason, RTV can and will give issues.

In the last month I have seen two K series heads with bearing and cam damage due to incorrect sealant used in the cam ladder, over the last 15 years I have seen many many more.

It would be irresponsible of me not to recommend binning the RTV and buying the correct Anaerobic sealant.

Dave

Did they come with sealant on them from the factory? Can you recommend a good Anaerobic sealant?

[DVandrews]

Loctite 574 is the factory sealant (although it is rebadged when supplied by Rover). Permatex do an equivalent.

Dave

[Sardonicus]

DVandrews said:

The success or failure of something is not measured by the number of times it succeeds but more by the incidence and consequences of failures. You may not have had a problem, however In my experience very few know how much is the correct amount of sealant to apply, the salient point is that if you overdo RTV mayhem can result, if you overdo anaerobic sealant no harm is done. In such a situation as this where anaerobic sealant is recommended it would be foolhardy to use the incorrect sealant, Anaerobic sealant is recommended for a reason, RTV can and will give issues.

In the last month I have seen two K series heads with bearing and cam damage due to incorrect sealant used in the cam ladder, over the last 15 years I have seen many many more.

It would be irresponsible of me not to recommend binning the RTV and buying the correct Anaerobic sealant.

Dave

Quite sure you hav seen many more K's than I have I can only speak from my own experience's it's all good

[johny105]

just looking at some stuff we have in the stores at work and its loctite 510 flange sealant
looks good better than rtv anyway

going to give it a try

[DVandrews]

Check the feeds from the top of the head to the followers for any blockage and check the follower oil holes for the same, make sure you clean the ladder oil grooves well...

Dave

[shoehorn]

Looking at this from a different perspective,although I suspect liberal use of the wrong sort of sealant is the most likely culprit,either on the cam chest faces as mentioned or around the small oil feed hole in the head gasket.

My old Honda 750 had been rebuilt using a lot of silicone and a 2 inch surplus stringy bit was being sucked up a feed to the head,
The only problem was that once turned off it would fall back down and be hidden only for it to be sucked back up at random and cause some nasty clatter and overheating.
I don`t expect it was doing the valve-train a lot of good either.

Did you,the OP use a complete cylinder head with cam carrier upper assembly,or did you re use the old one on the new head?
Just pondering if the upper assembly and cylinder head bores for the cams are not exact,i.e. aligning precisely and that maybe the cams were tight originally and now have worn some slack in the soft ally bearing surfaces at the high point/misaligned joint.
Thus being possibly the cause or part of the rattle,which would allow the oil pressure to drop off at the head through excess clearance also allowing the lifters to bleed down?

This was my experience with a 220 Rover coupe years ago,(the replacement,secondhand head was bare)It was fine for a few weeks then exactly the same symptoms occurred.
Oil pressure was spot on and plenty of oil at the top but it was getting out too easily and not being forced into the bearing surfaces and lifters.
The cam bearings showed highly polished areas where each half meets on alternate sides,meaning that the cap was slightly offset from the head.
Being Rover the allowed tolerance between engines was probably huge.
(could probably do with an opening a can of worms smilie for the last bit but,hey ho!)

[johny105]

The owner got the head off a guy on eBay ready skimmed and valves lapped and seated
Supplied with a ladder assembly.
Now weather this was Just one he had laying about the workshop I have no idea, but I used the one he supplied.
Cars at mine now although the rain has put me off today and I'm out tomorrow so should be able to all being we'll get stuck in