Which part of a car determines it's identity? Chassis?
Discussion
I am making a car using the parts from two or three same cars, for example one has good bodywork but high mileage, the other has low mileage parts but busted body.
Which part of the car determines it's identity? I would have thought it's the chassis but I see that Land Rover owners commonly change their chassis and I don't know that they then have to re register the car or anything.
Does anyone have any idea of the rules?
Which part of the car determines it's identity? I would have thought it's the chassis but I see that Land Rover owners commonly change their chassis and I don't know that they then have to re register the car or anything.
Does anyone have any idea of the rules?
rcx106 said:
I am making a car using the parts from two or three same cars, for example one has good bodywork but high mileage, the other has low mileage parts but busted body.
Which part of the car determines it's identity? I would have thought it's the chassis but I see that Land Rover owners commonly change their chassis and I don't know that they then have to re register the car or anything.
Does anyone have any idea of the rules?
In the UK, points make prizes!Which part of the car determines it's identity? I would have thought it's the chassis but I see that Land Rover owners commonly change their chassis and I don't know that they then have to re register the car or anything.
Does anyone have any idea of the rules?
rcx106 said:
I am making a car using the parts from two or three same cars, for example one has good bodywork but high mileage, the other has low mileage parts but busted body.
Which part of the car determines it's identity? I would have thought it's the chassis but I see that Land Rover owners commonly change their chassis and I don't know that they then have to re register the car or anything.
Does anyone have any idea of the rules?
That would depend on vehicle and exactly what you're proposing.Which part of the car determines it's identity? I would have thought it's the chassis but I see that Land Rover owners commonly change their chassis and I don't know that they then have to re register the car or anything.
Does anyone have any idea of the rules?
Technically the only parts with recorded ID numbers are the engine and chassis.
For most cars, the chassis isnt something that can be swapped easily, so how that applies to vehicles with a separate body and chassis, not sure.
And in the case of LR's where change is usually due to rust, I doubt swapping is considered a big deal.
The VIN is the vehicle identity.
In the case of a Monocoque the VIN is stamped into the body shell in one or more places. You cannot change/modify the body without having an IVA inspection. You can only replace the body shell with a new shell from a recognised supplier of like-for-like shells.
In the case of a vehicle with a separate chassis the VIN is stamped into the chassis. You can change the body pretty much as you like but you can't change the chassis without authority from DVLA. Again a new chassis has to come from a recognised supplier.
Steve
In the case of a Monocoque the VIN is stamped into the body shell in one or more places. You cannot change/modify the body without having an IVA inspection. You can only replace the body shell with a new shell from a recognised supplier of like-for-like shells.
In the case of a vehicle with a separate chassis the VIN is stamped into the chassis. You can change the body pretty much as you like but you can't change the chassis without authority from DVLA. Again a new chassis has to come from a recognised supplier.
Steve
In the case of Land Rovers, you can buy new chassis and copy the number over from the old one provided that it is like for like: you can't replace a leaf spring chassis with a coil spring one or a S2A chassis with a S3 one (even though DVLA would probably never notice the difference between 2A and 3). You have to copy the chassis number over from the old one and make sure the old chassis is destroyed (I'm not sure if you have to keep the old number, but it has to be removed from the scrap chassis). Fortunately for many, the chassis number is in a place that seems to suffer the most rot and the area has been plated before a new chassis is ever considered!
With something like a Mini, which has two subframes, it is the body that "owns" the VIN - so changing subframes isn't a problem - but changing the body is.
As others have posted, it's all down to points now - if you have enough components from the old car in the body you are going to use, it isn't a problem. Changing engines, gearboxes and rear axles reduces the points total and can lead to the latest version of IVA test (I don't know the name, but it is why Top Gear don't build compete vehicles now). The "however" is that gearboxes don't have numbers - so a 1300 Escort box can probably be fitted to a different 1300 Escort without anyone noticing - it may be different if one was auto and the other manual!
With something like a Mini, which has two subframes, it is the body that "owns" the VIN - so changing subframes isn't a problem - but changing the body is.
As others have posted, it's all down to points now - if you have enough components from the old car in the body you are going to use, it isn't a problem. Changing engines, gearboxes and rear axles reduces the points total and can lead to the latest version of IVA test (I don't know the name, but it is why Top Gear don't build compete vehicles now). The "however" is that gearboxes don't have numbers - so a 1300 Escort box can probably be fitted to a different 1300 Escort without anyone noticing - it may be different if one was auto and the other manual!
Ok, so this points system is going to make things complicated? What's the systenm called so that I can Google it. I have two Suzuki 4x4 cars.
Car A is low mileage but had a bad body (pink, rusty, and wasn't a hard top like I wanted). I kept the engine, drive train and all wearable items like ventilation system, power steering pump, steering column. Rest of car was scrapped.
Car B has no rust and good body, but is super high milage, engine is shot.
Plan is to fit parts from car A into car B.
As for anyone noticing, I do believe that a lot of parts are date stamped :/
Car A is low mileage but had a bad body (pink, rusty, and wasn't a hard top like I wanted). I kept the engine, drive train and all wearable items like ventilation system, power steering pump, steering column. Rest of car was scrapped.
Car B has no rust and good body, but is super high milage, engine is shot.
Plan is to fit parts from car A into car B.
As for anyone noticing, I do believe that a lot of parts are date stamped :/
Edited by rcx106 on Saturday 24th May 21:24
Ok, I found this, it seems fairly simple and clear. Reading it now: http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/vosalaw.htm
You need 8 Points from one vehicle (or new parts)
Chassis/Bodyshell 5
Suspension (both) 2
Axles (both) 2
Transmission 2
Steering assembly 2
Engine 1
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
You don't say which Suzuki, but Jimmy and Vitara have a chassis not monocoque, and given your description it seems the majority (if not all) of the critical parts are from Car A.
Chassis/Bodyshell 5
Suspension (both) 2
Axles (both) 2
Transmission 2
Steering assembly 2
Engine 1
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
You don't say which Suzuki, but Jimmy and Vitara have a chassis not monocoque, and given your description it seems the majority (if not all) of the critical parts are from Car A.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Saturday 24th May 21:38
Thanks Martin. I just read an article and also the .gov web link you just gave. I believe my car would be a Rebuilt Vehicle and not a Radically Altered Vehicle. The rules are (in my case), I need to keep the original chassis and one of two items from the list:
suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine
suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine
The IVA points system is to determine the registration not wether it needs IVA
not enough points Q reg
Enough points Age related reg
All new parts ( one reconditioned allowed) new reg
In your particular case you are reconditioning your best chassis with parts from another vehicle and only need to inform DVLA of engine change ( engine number)
It would probably prudent after completing the rebuild and after getting new engine number on the V5
Officially scrapping the donor car
not enough points Q reg
Enough points Age related reg
All new parts ( one reconditioned allowed) new reg
In your particular case you are reconditioning your best chassis with parts from another vehicle and only need to inform DVLA of engine change ( engine number)
It would probably prudent after completing the rebuild and after getting new engine number on the V5
Officially scrapping the donor car
wildoliver said:
Stop worrying, fit the bits you need to fit and if asked you replaced the dead engine with a replacement unit.
Would agree with this.You're replacing some unimportant parts, the only thing that might ever be noticed or questioned is the engine.
just update the V5 with this change and there wont be a problem. Especially as you're just replacing Suzuki parts with more Suzuki parts
PaulKemp said:
The IVA points system is to determine the registration not wether it needs IVA
not enough points Q reg
Enough points Age related reg
All new parts ( one reconditioned allowed) new reg
In your particular case you are reconditioning your best chassis with parts from another vehicle and only need to inform DVLA of engine change ( engine number)
It would probably prudent after completing the rebuild and after getting new engine number on the V5
Officially scrapping the donor car
True - I would just let them know the engine has been changed and that the donor vehicle has been scrapped. Though I gather that more radical swapping has led to cars needing to be inspected before it could be used (this is probably where I got "confused" with testing!)not enough points Q reg
Enough points Age related reg
All new parts ( one reconditioned allowed) new reg
In your particular case you are reconditioning your best chassis with parts from another vehicle and only need to inform DVLA of engine change ( engine number)
It would probably prudent after completing the rebuild and after getting new engine number on the V5
Officially scrapping the donor car
I fitted a 1750 engine in my 1500 Maxi about 30 years ago and the log book came back with the model as "Maxi 1500" and the correct 1750 engine number. It was a bit OTT as the only differences between the two models were the final drive ratio and the badges!
The Landy that I'm trying to get sorted has a Montego diesel engine and S2a gearbox. It is supposed to be a S2a, but the only other obvious S2a bit is the radiator grille! The DVLA are happy because it has the right chassis number (according to the plate that is on my desk). It was down as a petrol version when I got it, so I wrote in the engine number and "Heavy Fuel" and they sent a new V5c without any questions. I'm waiting for a S3 gearbox to come (the S2a one has issues), so there will be very little of the original vehicle left soon and I haven't found the chassis number - just welded patches where it should be (as per many older Land Rovers).
Interesting that this topic keeps coming up in the sense of queries about obtaining registration of an altered or radically altered vehicle. I have it contributed to at least six of these topics recently and in every case there has been a different appreciation and concern from questions and answers from the contributors. I build about five kit cars every year and IVA all of them. I make no money indeed i lose money on these cars. I am a retired Chsrtered Accountant whose hobby is kit cars. Has been for 50 years. I thoroughly enjoy building kits. It keeps me apply and busy. As an aside I will ask the local HMIT inspector whether this is an allowable loss for tax purposes. He will ( I know him of old) undoubtedly declare it hobby trading and not allowable (quite rightly).
There are currently a preponderance of "Barn find" "Projects" and unfinished, indeed not started kit cars being advertised on the web. There are also a great many half finished radically altered vehicles being advertised with "all it needs is an mot" or similar nonsense. These adverts are IMO in the main fundamentally misinforming the majority of buyers who probably have no real understanding or experience of the change there has been on the process of registering correctly radically altered cars and kit car in recent years.
It seems to me that many if these adverts are deliberately hiding the reality that in many cases these cars will not be easy to register and cannot legally be used on the roads under their old donor identity. The DVLA/VOSA have clearly changed the requirements for MOT garages to satisfy themselves that the V5 does in fact contain an accurate description of the car concerned. A Sierra Saphire that is in fact a locost/whatever in reality in the flesh clearly does not meet that requirement.
At the moment there are such cars about but as time goes by they're going to get spotted. For that reason I urge all buyers to be very very cautious in considering a part built radically altered car or unfinished kit car at anything more than scrap value. I recently registered two such kits I completed one a Banham Sprint which was based on a Mini and one a Quantum RS Turbo based on a Fiesta RSTurbo. Despite having full and complete records for the initial build for both cars with full documentary evidence and photographs of both builds and having all the service history on both cars with full V5 back up and the compete history on the cars and with original receipts for both cars it has taken me 6 months of correspondence and 10 meetings with the DVLA to get the cars registered.
Both are now registered properly and both are on age related plates. But Q plates were definitely a possibility and indeed getting registration, despite the fact that mechanically both cars are identical to the donor vehicle, was anything but easy. I therefore urge all prospective buyers to excerise extreme caution in viewing and considering buying an uncompleted altered car or unfinished kit from the web. It is easy for a distant seller to proffer easy solutions but actually getting this through the DVLA Is not a simple process and when kits are offered without full documentation such cars are certainly best left alone. I would hate to see a builder working for months on a car which actually is very unlikely to meet the required standards. Most certainly not a reasonable cost because the costs could so easily become prohibitive.
There are currently a preponderance of "Barn find" "Projects" and unfinished, indeed not started kit cars being advertised on the web. There are also a great many half finished radically altered vehicles being advertised with "all it needs is an mot" or similar nonsense. These adverts are IMO in the main fundamentally misinforming the majority of buyers who probably have no real understanding or experience of the change there has been on the process of registering correctly radically altered cars and kit car in recent years.
It seems to me that many if these adverts are deliberately hiding the reality that in many cases these cars will not be easy to register and cannot legally be used on the roads under their old donor identity. The DVLA/VOSA have clearly changed the requirements for MOT garages to satisfy themselves that the V5 does in fact contain an accurate description of the car concerned. A Sierra Saphire that is in fact a locost/whatever in reality in the flesh clearly does not meet that requirement.
At the moment there are such cars about but as time goes by they're going to get spotted. For that reason I urge all buyers to be very very cautious in considering a part built radically altered car or unfinished kit car at anything more than scrap value. I recently registered two such kits I completed one a Banham Sprint which was based on a Mini and one a Quantum RS Turbo based on a Fiesta RSTurbo. Despite having full and complete records for the initial build for both cars with full documentary evidence and photographs of both builds and having all the service history on both cars with full V5 back up and the compete history on the cars and with original receipts for both cars it has taken me 6 months of correspondence and 10 meetings with the DVLA to get the cars registered.
Both are now registered properly and both are on age related plates. But Q plates were definitely a possibility and indeed getting registration, despite the fact that mechanically both cars are identical to the donor vehicle, was anything but easy. I therefore urge all prospective buyers to excerise extreme caution in viewing and considering buying an uncompleted altered car or unfinished kit from the web. It is easy for a distant seller to proffer easy solutions but actually getting this through the DVLA Is not a simple process and when kits are offered without full documentation such cars are certainly best left alone. I would hate to see a builder working for months on a car which actually is very unlikely to meet the required standards. Most certainly not a reasonable cost because the costs could so easily become prohibitive.
rcx106 said:
Steffan, do you know if any exceptions are made if the parts being fitted are exactly the same as those that they are replacing? I read an article that says like-for-like is acceptable.
In theory that should be the case. But what happens if the parts are missing identity numbers etc? The DVLA are getting fairly paranoid about parts which may not be supported by original receipts and identity numbers. When is a Triumph engine not a Triumph engine? When there are no numbers supporting that identity apparently.The DVLA are operating through a number of outlets and there are clearly differences between the approach off these outlets. Which approach will be adopted will depend on which DVLA office you are dealing with. There is as yet not much consistency.
My concern is to ensure that kit builders and radically altered car completers understand that this is not a simple process. If you do everything right you should be ok. But when the DVLA require ORIGINAL receipts for cars incorporated into uncompleted kit cars 25 years ago it gets a bit tricky. In reality unless you have a complete file of all the parts used in the build and all the original receipts for those parts there could be trouble.
The IVA test itself is not the problem and in my experience the IVA testers are very helpful and constructive. The problem is in the heart of the bureaucracy which is the DVLA and therein lies the problem. In time this may improve but currently I urge all builders to err on the side of getting every possible piece of paper when buying such vehicles. Otherwise it can get very vexed and take some resolution.
Over the years I have bought literally hundreds of parts seats, interiors, engines, gearboxes chassis with docs and without docs, and so on. I rarely bothered with receipts but I do now! Without genuine provenance and provable paperwork such purchases may be a real poisened chalice as things are. The DVLA are making the rules and they are the only authority on this. I think anyone trying to register cars which are not supported by such paperwork are going to be in real trouble.
I have acquired an MG Midget which has been rebodied as an Austin Healey Frog Eye Sprite and very good it looks. I now have four such pastiches and they are all variously registered in different forms. Does it require rerigistration as a radically altered vehicle. I wonder? I think that when I i finally get the 5 speed sierra box fitted to offer reasonable cruising I will ask the question of the DVLA. Any suggestions as to what they will say?
It is mechanically identical (not a bad pastiche) to the Spridgets which shared the same body once the MG models were made. I would be very interested to hear what other enthusiasts think. It is exactly the same mechanically as the later Mk 2 Austin Healey Sprites down to the curved sills etc. in reality only the badging is different. That's is a conundrum which remains to be solved but I can provide the paperwork whichever way the DVLA decide.
It's great fun is this, sn't it? Well it is for me and I hopefully it will be for the cautious kit builders. But you must be aware of the possible problems in this post IVA world!! Do not underestimate this difficulty and be prepared with paperwork in profusion. That is my advice! And Good Luck to all builders!
Steffan, in my case, where all the parts came from an identical car (a few years newer but the parts are the same), and I have a receipt and V5 for the entire donor car....?
Ah, I spoke too soon.. I no longer have the receipt
But the V5 was in my name and then the car was declared scrapped.
Will there be any problems notifying the DVLA that a new engine has been fitted in my car from a car that they know has been scrapped?
Ah, I spoke too soon.. I no longer have the receipt
But the V5 was in my name and then the car was declared scrapped.Will there be any problems notifying the DVLA that a new engine has been fitted in my car from a car that they know has been scrapped?
rcx106 said:
Steffan, in my case, where all the parts came from an identical car (a few years newer but the parts are the same), and I have a receipt and V5 for the entire donor car....?
Ah, I spoke too soon.. I no longer have the receipt But the V5 was in my name and then the car was declared scrapped.
Will there be any problems notifying the DVLA that a new engine has been fitted in my car from a car that they know has been scrapped?
Ah, I spoke too soon.. I no longer have the receipt
But the V5 was in my name and then the car was declared scrapped.Will there be any problems notifying the DVLA that a new engine has been fitted in my car from a car that they know has been scrapped?
Ideally you need a genuine original receipt for the car identifying the car and confirming the sale. The DVLA may accept your explanation but bureaucracies like paperwork. Have you transferred the car into your name and are the details in the V5 correct for the car as you bought it? I think you should be all right but if the DVLA require receipts for kit sold 25 years ago which they have done from me it is getting a bit tricky. I suggest you begin the process and see what the DVLA require?
Edited by Steffan on Monday 26th May 19:45
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