Please Help Audi A3 engine ceased whilst at garage
Discussion
Hi, I have no ideas about engines and im going through a dilemma that i cant argue because I dont know the facts. For 2 weeks my EPC and Engine management light was coming on intermittently . My car did feel in limp mode when the lights where on but would then drive like a dream when they went off again. Took it to the local garage and he did a diagnostics with the computer , this came up with an airflow problem. He advised I have a service and a filer change. I had only had a service 6 mths prior and I only use the car for the short journey to work and back but all the same I had the service done. Picked it up and no lights came on for 2 days and it drove very smooth but then the lights came back on and off again. I took it back to the garage and they gave me a number for an auto electrician. He said it was a pipe that was split going to the air filter and he could replace it so i paid him and he did the job. Another few days later the lights came back on plus my coolant light had come on , it was topped up but came on again. I was so frustrated that I decided to take it to the manufactures garage. They said they would do a diagnostic , visual check ect to see whats wrong , it would cost £60 for this initial check and they would email me the findings along with a quote for any work that needs to be carried out. Sure enough i got the email and it stated the air flow pipe was full of glue and that it needed replacing ( this was obviously shoddy work by the auto electrician who i thought had replaced the pipe?) I rang my dealer garage back to say ok i will got ahead with the work but she interrupted me and said I am so sorry but your engine as ceased under a pressure test and that the engine was flooded with water and would not start again unless it was rebuilt. They are now trying to bill me for this and refusing to admit any liability , stating they believe my head gasket was on its way out anyway and that the block pipe as caused this, so its not their fault. can anyone shed any light on this please. I drove my car in there for a check and now its completely broke and they wont fix it. they are even threatening me to pick it up or i will get charged £25 a day. Iv had no car for 6 weeks and i have a child with disabilities and its causing me so much stress. Im going through the ombudsman but that takes months. I just need to know if anyone can shed light on what might of happened and whos at fault here. :0(
Paragraphs would be good.
What do you mean by 'ceased'? Or do you mean the engine has seized?
If you were losing coolant & there was no apparent reason for it then a cooling system pressure test would be necessary as this can often reveal minor exernal leaks which would not be easily spottable on a hot & running engine.
If there is still no obvious leakage then suspicion would fall on the head gasket.
A chemical test to check for the presence of combustion gases would help to point to head gasket failure but I would want to do both the pressure test AND the gases test.
Appears that the head gasket may have been the cause of your coolant loss & to confirm & repair then the cylinder head would need to be removed.
Have they tried to start the engine & the quantity of coolant in the cylinder due to the pressure test has hydrolocked the engine causing damage - & seizure?
Having dealt with a few hg issues on our own cars - incl a biggie on my Scimitar which used as much coolant as petrol on the homeward trip after it went! - I'm not entirely convinced that there would be sufficient water entering the cylinder to cause this as the hydrolock incidents I've seen occured when driving a car through flood water & a large quantity of water is inhaled through the air intake. I stand to be corrected!
I can't see any good reason for saying that a blocked pipe that only passes air & that isn't connected to the cooling system could be the reason for the engine failure.
What do you mean by 'ceased'? Or do you mean the engine has seized?
If you were losing coolant & there was no apparent reason for it then a cooling system pressure test would be necessary as this can often reveal minor exernal leaks which would not be easily spottable on a hot & running engine.
If there is still no obvious leakage then suspicion would fall on the head gasket.
A chemical test to check for the presence of combustion gases would help to point to head gasket failure but I would want to do both the pressure test AND the gases test.
Appears that the head gasket may have been the cause of your coolant loss & to confirm & repair then the cylinder head would need to be removed.
Have they tried to start the engine & the quantity of coolant in the cylinder due to the pressure test has hydrolocked the engine causing damage - & seizure?
Having dealt with a few hg issues on our own cars - incl a biggie on my Scimitar which used as much coolant as petrol on the homeward trip after it went! - I'm not entirely convinced that there would be sufficient water entering the cylinder to cause this as the hydrolock incidents I've seen occured when driving a car through flood water & a large quantity of water is inhaled through the air intake. I stand to be corrected!
I can't see any good reason for saying that a blocked pipe that only passes air & that isn't connected to the cooling system could be the reason for the engine failure.
Edited by paintman on Friday 15th February 11:31
It seems like you have unfortunately been poorly advised etc by the 2 previous people to work on the car as I have no idea why a service would be advised for an "airflow problem" nor why a mechanic would send you to an auto-electrician to change a pipe.
On the point of the main dealer, I would have expected better too.
They charge you £60 for a diagnostic, give you a diagnosis & then carry on working without the go-ahead to continue.
That being said, without being there at the time I can only say I would have expected better.
You say the water was topped up & the warning came on again, but not whether it was ever low for either top-up/warning light occurrence.
On the point of the main dealer, I would have expected better too.
They charge you £60 for a diagnostic, give you a diagnosis & then carry on working without the go-ahead to continue.
That being said, without being there at the time I can only say I would have expected better.
You say the water was topped up & the warning came on again, but not whether it was ever low for either top-up/warning light occurrence.
paintman said:
I'm not entirely convinced that there would be sufficient water entering the cylinder to cause this
It's happened to me. The engine was producing noticeably more power than usual during a long pull, and then seized the moment I lifted off. I couldn't prove exactly what happened because the engine had reverted to a kit by the time everything came to a halt, but my theory is it had been ingesting water through a failed HG at a significant rate which started accumulating in the cylinder when the power was removed.misstimp said:
Hi, I have no ideas about engines and im going through a dilemma that i cant argue because I dont know the facts.
For 2 weeks my EPC and Engine management light was coming on intermittently . My car did feel in limp mode when the lights where on but would then drive like a dream when they went off again.
Took it to the local garage and he did a diagnostics with the computer , this came up with an airflow problem. He advised I have a service and a filer change. I had only had a service 6 mths prior and I only use the car for the short journey to work and back but all the same I had the service done.
Picked it up and no lights came on for 2 days and it drove very smooth but then the lights came back on and off again. I took it back to the garage and they gave me a number for an auto electrician. He said it was a pipe that was split going to the air filter and he could replace it so i paid him and he did the job.
Another few days later the lights came back on plus my coolant light had come on , it was topped up but came on again. I was so frustrated that I decided to take it to the manufactures garage. They said they would do a diagnostic , visual check etc. to see whats wrong , it would cost £60 for this initial check and they would email me the findings along with a quote for any work that needs to be carried out. Sure enough i got the email and it stated the air flow pipe was full of glue and that it needed replacing ( this was obviously shoddy work by the auto electrician who i thought had replaced the pipe?)
I rang my dealer garage back to say ok i will got ahead with the work but she interrupted me and said I am so sorry but your engine as ceased (has seized?) under a pressure test and that the engine was flooded with water and would not start again unless it was rebuilt. They are now trying to bill me for this and refusing to admit any liability , stating they believe my head gasket was on its way out anyway and that the blocked pipe has caused this, so its not their fault.
Can anyone shed any light on this please. I drove my car in there for a check and now its completely broken and they wont fix it. They are even threatening me to pick it up or i will get charged £25 a day.
I've had no car for 6 weeks and i have a child with disabilities and its causing me so much stress. Im going through the ombudsman but that takes months. I just need to know if anyone can shed light on what might of happened and who's at fault here. :0(
I've tried to tidy up the OP in the hope that it will encourage more replies.For 2 weeks my EPC and Engine management light was coming on intermittently . My car did feel in limp mode when the lights where on but would then drive like a dream when they went off again.
Took it to the local garage and he did a diagnostics with the computer , this came up with an airflow problem. He advised I have a service and a filer change. I had only had a service 6 mths prior and I only use the car for the short journey to work and back but all the same I had the service done.
Picked it up and no lights came on for 2 days and it drove very smooth but then the lights came back on and off again. I took it back to the garage and they gave me a number for an auto electrician. He said it was a pipe that was split going to the air filter and he could replace it so i paid him and he did the job.
Another few days later the lights came back on plus my coolant light had come on , it was topped up but came on again. I was so frustrated that I decided to take it to the manufactures garage. They said they would do a diagnostic , visual check etc. to see whats wrong , it would cost £60 for this initial check and they would email me the findings along with a quote for any work that needs to be carried out. Sure enough i got the email and it stated the air flow pipe was full of glue and that it needed replacing ( this was obviously shoddy work by the auto electrician who i thought had replaced the pipe?)
I rang my dealer garage back to say ok i will got ahead with the work but she interrupted me and said I am so sorry but your engine as ceased (has seized?) under a pressure test and that the engine was flooded with water and would not start again unless it was rebuilt. They are now trying to bill me for this and refusing to admit any liability , stating they believe my head gasket was on its way out anyway and that the blocked pipe has caused this, so its not their fault.
Can anyone shed any light on this please. I drove my car in there for a check and now its completely broken and they wont fix it. They are even threatening me to pick it up or i will get charged £25 a day.
I've had no car for 6 weeks and i have a child with disabilities and its causing me so much stress. Im going through the ombudsman but that takes months. I just need to know if anyone can shed light on what might of happened and who's at fault here. :0(
OP - could you add some details - the age of the car, how many miles, how long you've had it - this may help people to give you better advice.
From my understanding the main problem seems to be that the pressure test the garage carried out - in order to identify why it was losing water - has forced water into the engine because the head gasket failed. Hopefully this means that the engine is hydro-locked rather than mechanically seized (which would mean broken parts).
I guess how the garage reacts to this will depend on your relationship. If you've bought the car from them, and always had it serviced there, I would hope that they would be more accommodating. My reading of your opening post suggests that this may not be the case.
Do you not have a friend or work colleague who would help you with this?
misstimp said:
Hi, I have no ideas about engines and im going through a dilemma that i cant argue because I dont know the facts.
For 2 weeks my EPC and Engine management light was coming on intermittently . My car did feel in limp mode when the lights where on but would then drive like a dream when they went off again.
Took it to the local garage and he did a diagnostics with the computer , this came up with an airflow problem. He advised I have a service and a filer change. I had only had a service 6 mths prior and I only use the car for the short journey to work and back but all the same I had the service done.
Picked it up and no lights came on for 2 days and it drove very smooth but then the lights came back on and off again. I took it back to the garage and they gave me a number for an auto electrician. He said it was a pipe that was split going to the air filter and he could replace it so i paid him and he did the job.
Another few days later the lights came back on plus my coolant light had come on , it was topped up but came on again. I was so frustrated that I decided to take it to the manufactures garage. They said they would do a diagnostic , visual check etc. to see whats wrong , it would cost £60 for this initial check and they would email me the findings along with a quote for any work that needs to be carried out. Sure enough i got the email and it stated the air flow pipe was full of glue and that it needed replacing ( this was obviously shoddy work by the auto electrician who i thought had replaced the pipe?)
I rang my dealer garage back to say ok i will got ahead with the work but she interrupted me and said I am so sorry but your engine as ceased (has seized?) under a pressure test and that the engine was flooded with water and would not start again unless it was rebuilt. They are now trying to bill me for this and refusing to admit any liability , stating they believe my head gasket was on its way out anyway and that the blocked pipe has caused this, so its not their fault.
Can anyone shed any light on this please. I drove my car in there for a check and now its completely broken and they wont fix it. They are even threatening me to pick it up or i will get charged £25 a day.
I've had no car for 6 weeks and i have a child with disabilities and its causing me so much stress. Im going through the ombudsman but that takes months. I just need to know if anyone can shed light on what might of happened and who's at fault here. :0(
Too many cooks…For 2 weeks my EPC and Engine management light was coming on intermittently . My car did feel in limp mode when the lights where on but would then drive like a dream when they went off again.
Took it to the local garage and he did a diagnostics with the computer , this came up with an airflow problem. He advised I have a service and a filer change. I had only had a service 6 mths prior and I only use the car for the short journey to work and back but all the same I had the service done.
Picked it up and no lights came on for 2 days and it drove very smooth but then the lights came back on and off again. I took it back to the garage and they gave me a number for an auto electrician. He said it was a pipe that was split going to the air filter and he could replace it so i paid him and he did the job.
Another few days later the lights came back on plus my coolant light had come on , it was topped up but came on again. I was so frustrated that I decided to take it to the manufactures garage. They said they would do a diagnostic , visual check etc. to see whats wrong , it would cost £60 for this initial check and they would email me the findings along with a quote for any work that needs to be carried out. Sure enough i got the email and it stated the air flow pipe was full of glue and that it needed replacing ( this was obviously shoddy work by the auto electrician who i thought had replaced the pipe?)
I rang my dealer garage back to say ok i will got ahead with the work but she interrupted me and said I am so sorry but your engine as ceased (has seized?) under a pressure test and that the engine was flooded with water and would not start again unless it was rebuilt. They are now trying to bill me for this and refusing to admit any liability , stating they believe my head gasket was on its way out anyway and that the blocked pipe has caused this, so its not their fault.
Can anyone shed any light on this please. I drove my car in there for a check and now its completely broken and they wont fix it. They are even threatening me to pick it up or i will get charged £25 a day.
I've had no car for 6 weeks and i have a child with disabilities and its causing me so much stress. Im going through the ombudsman but that takes months. I just need to know if anyone can shed light on what might of happened and who's at fault here. :0(
None of this makes sense.
The blocked pipe going to the air filter is related to air flow. I don’t think it could’ve caused the head gasket failure as the dealer has said. So that’s a lie?
The air flow problem was probably an un-related but coincidental issue.
From what you said about the coolant light and topping up the coolant I think it’s likely that your head gasket was on its way out at that point, so that part might be true.
It’s probable that your car needed a head gasket when you took it to the main dealer but now because of their actions (pressure test) it may also have damage to the bottom end of the engine. The damage to the bottom end would not have been there were it not for the main dealer’s actions. This is probably why they are ‘so sorry’.
IMO you need to stop complicating the issue with the main dealer by mentioning the air flow problem / local garage / auto electrician and concentrate on the fact that when you delivered the car to them it needed a head gasket only but now because of them it may need a full rebuild
Depending on the age and warranty status of the car you may have been better off taking it to a cheaper independent specialist garage than the main dealer anyway but now they have exacerbated the issue you need to persuade them to make a contribution to the investigation and repair work.
This is going to end up costing someone four figure sums, possibly multiples depending on make / model etc.
GreenV8S said:
paintman said:
I'm not entirely convinced that there would be sufficient water entering the cylinder to cause this
It's happened to me. The engine was producing noticeably more power than usual during a long pull, and then seized the moment I lifted off. I couldn't prove exactly what happened because the engine had reverted to a kit by the time everything came to a halt, but my theory is it had been ingesting water through a failed HG at a significant rate which started accumulating in the cylinder when the power was removed.
We had a spate of damaged engines when the force switched to diesels as pandas some years ago & these were as a consequence of the low position of the air intake meeting standing water and fords. Item on weekly orders that they weren't to be driven through such things.
The supposed savings of running diesels didn't happen & they went back to petrol engined ones.
Edited by paintman on Friday 15th February 14:19
Firstly , thank you very much for your replies. yes sorry about no paragraphs eek! I was just rushing trying to get some answers before I write a 3 page essay to the motor ombudsman again.
I wish I could upload the letter that I have received from them , one part actually states ,its because of the Air flow pipe that the coolant light came on? I'm not a mechanic or know anything about cars but even Im sure this isn't the case. The problem is they have had a million people deal with this so every time I speak to someone they have a different version of events or have the information the wrong way around. very un professional for a big company like this.
I was told on day one of this that the pressure test caused the water to leak into the engine , it was so bad it was pouring out when they removed the spark plugs. If the car was in that condition when I brought it there Im sure it wouldn't of started up that morning and drove there with no coolant warning light ?
Im not arguing maybe my head gasket was at some point of going but not to that extent. Could they have found this without using such force ?
My car is 2011 reg and it has around 59,000 miles on the clock. It has been serviced every year and I only use it to go to work and back , which is a ten minute journey. I walk / run to the gym and even sometimes to work when im trying to be fit, so it isn't used often.
Its them that keep mentioning the shoddy work on the Air flow pipe as I think they want to use that as a get out clause.
As it stands I have now had a voice message left saying they are no longer offering to repair the car at any cost and that I need to arrange to pick up the vehicle asap or I stand to be charged £25 per day why it is there. the consumer rights said don't collect it till they put all that in writing as it will look like I'm accepting the situation.
fed up !!
I wish I could upload the letter that I have received from them , one part actually states ,its because of the Air flow pipe that the coolant light came on? I'm not a mechanic or know anything about cars but even Im sure this isn't the case. The problem is they have had a million people deal with this so every time I speak to someone they have a different version of events or have the information the wrong way around. very un professional for a big company like this.
I was told on day one of this that the pressure test caused the water to leak into the engine , it was so bad it was pouring out when they removed the spark plugs. If the car was in that condition when I brought it there Im sure it wouldn't of started up that morning and drove there with no coolant warning light ?
Im not arguing maybe my head gasket was at some point of going but not to that extent. Could they have found this without using such force ?
My car is 2011 reg and it has around 59,000 miles on the clock. It has been serviced every year and I only use it to go to work and back , which is a ten minute journey. I walk / run to the gym and even sometimes to work when im trying to be fit, so it isn't used often.
Its them that keep mentioning the shoddy work on the Air flow pipe as I think they want to use that as a get out clause.
As it stands I have now had a voice message left saying they are no longer offering to repair the car at any cost and that I need to arrange to pick up the vehicle asap or I stand to be charged £25 per day why it is there. the consumer rights said don't collect it till they put all that in writing as it will look like I'm accepting the situation.
fed up !!
I would suggest you write to the garage in the following terms. "For the avoidance of doubt (this is a legalish term meaning they get a chance to put their case in writing) please describe what you believe the problems with my car to be, the work you did to diagnose it and why my car, which was running whwn I brought it to you, is not running now. I asked you to diagnose the problem not do any destructive testing which would cause the engine to fail. Once I have your detailed reply I will take independent advice on it."
It's a difficult situation, and what Mignon asks is quite reasonable for the garage to put a response into writing.
As for the story so far, for a non mechanical person, your train of thought is not unreasonable at all, and sadly you have been a victim ( as are far too many ) of incompetent garages.
It's easy to say dont go to a dealer, dont go here etc etc..but always much harder for someone to recommend where to go because there are so many incompetent ones out there.
What about the likes of paying AA/RAC for some sort of inspection on the vehicle ? As some sort of independent body on the matter ?
For the engine to seize at random needing a full rebuild whist in the care of the garage whilst not impossible to happen, should be incredibly unlikely to happen.
But without more details on the mode of seizure etc....even that is difficult to say whether it's plausible or not.
As for the story so far, for a non mechanical person, your train of thought is not unreasonable at all, and sadly you have been a victim ( as are far too many ) of incompetent garages.
It's easy to say dont go to a dealer, dont go here etc etc..but always much harder for someone to recommend where to go because there are so many incompetent ones out there.
What about the likes of paying AA/RAC for some sort of inspection on the vehicle ? As some sort of independent body on the matter ?
For the engine to seize at random needing a full rebuild whist in the care of the garage whilst not impossible to happen, should be incredibly unlikely to happen.
But without more details on the mode of seizure etc....even that is difficult to say whether it's plausible or not.
Probably not what you want to hear but...
Based on all the above I'd suggest that you've been driving around with a failing head gasket for some time and that's probably caused the various warning lights.
Unfortunately, misdiagnoses by the various garages has caused you to continue driving the car, probably causing more damage, and it's just chosen to gasp it's last at the Audi garage.
It's just bad luck.
Frankly, I doubt you have any case against the Audi garage. They'll just say: “You brought in a failing car and it died when it got here”.
And they're almost certainly right.
Based on all the above I'd suggest that you've been driving around with a failing head gasket for some time and that's probably caused the various warning lights.
Unfortunately, misdiagnoses by the various garages has caused you to continue driving the car, probably causing more damage, and it's just chosen to gasp it's last at the Audi garage.
It's just bad luck.
Frankly, I doubt you have any case against the Audi garage. They'll just say: “You brought in a failing car and it died when it got here”.
And they're almost certainly right.
It does sound very much like there has been an undiagnosed issue lurking around that the earlier garages have not spotted & that it's pretty much come to a head when the dealer have properly gotten in about it.
This isn't as uncommon as you may think - a car with a potentially serious internal issue goes round the independent houses, who either misdiagnose in error or figure what's going on but don't want involved. The customer, having had enough decides to go to the main dealer who have the joy of opening an unhappy can of worms up for the customer.
If you car has had some ongoing, unresolved issues that have included undiagnosed water consumption, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that there is a potentially serious issue & depending on how far the issue had developed it's not unrealistic that the lump may go bang during testing - it has to go bang somewhere.
This isn't as uncommon as you may think - a car with a potentially serious internal issue goes round the independent houses, who either misdiagnose in error or figure what's going on but don't want involved. The customer, having had enough decides to go to the main dealer who have the joy of opening an unhappy can of worms up for the customer.
If you car has had some ongoing, unresolved issues that have included undiagnosed water consumption, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that there is a potentially serious issue & depending on how far the issue had developed it's not unrealistic that the lump may go bang during testing - it has to go bang somewhere.
Novexx said:
It does sound very much like there has been an undiagnosed issue lurking around that the earlier garages have not spotted & that it's pretty much come to a head when the dealer have properly gotten in about it.
This isn't as uncommon as you may think - a car with a potentially serious internal issue goes round the independent houses, who either misdiagnose in error or figure what's going on but don't want involved. The customer, having had enough decides to go to the main dealer who have the joy of opening an unhappy can of worms up for the customer.
If you car has had some ongoing, unresolved issues that have included undiagnosed water consumption, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that there is a potentially serious issue & depending on how far the issue had developed it's not unrealistic that the lump may go bang during testing - it has to go bang somewhere.
It would be more realistic that someone at the dealers fThis isn't as uncommon as you may think - a car with a potentially serious internal issue goes round the independent houses, who either misdiagnose in error or figure what's going on but don't want involved. The customer, having had enough decides to go to the main dealer who have the joy of opening an unhappy can of worms up for the customer.
If you car has had some ongoing, unresolved issues that have included undiagnosed water consumption, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that there is a potentially serious issue & depending on how far the issue had developed it's not unrealistic that the lump may go bang during testing - it has to go bang somewhere.
ked up and caused the problem.The amount of rubbish on this page is amazing.
You had two people try and fix something and didn’t do a great job.
Then u have had a separate fault - losing coolant- which u have taken to a dealer. They have quite sensibly done a pressure test which is used to find leaks in the system a they found the leak - as a consequence they have forced more coolant into the area where it was leaking into, but this time without the engine running, and therefore not getting burnt off as it leaks.
They can probably get the car running again by removing the plugs and turning it over but I can’t see why they would be interested in doing that as whatever goodwill may have been shown has evaporated as a person with little knowledge of cars has decided to blame them for breaking a broken car.
Even if they got it running again - it still needs fixing, so what’s the point? The car can run with blown head gasket
You had two people try and fix something and didn’t do a great job.
Then u have had a separate fault - losing coolant- which u have taken to a dealer. They have quite sensibly done a pressure test which is used to find leaks in the system a they found the leak - as a consequence they have forced more coolant into the area where it was leaking into, but this time without the engine running, and therefore not getting burnt off as it leaks.
They can probably get the car running again by removing the plugs and turning it over but I can’t see why they would be interested in doing that as whatever goodwill may have been shown has evaporated as a person with little knowledge of cars has decided to blame them for breaking a broken car.
Even if they got it running again - it still needs fixing, so what’s the point? The car can run with blown head gasket
Mignon said:
They didn't need to continue a pressure test until the cylinders were full of water and even so the least they could do is remove the plugs and pump that out and squirt some oil or WD40 down there. The bores and rings will be fooked if it's left like that.
Perhaps they were spending time looking for an external leak to begin with, as u do, the whole time your testing it u leave it under pressure. Yes they could remove the plugs to get it clear of water- and actually maybe bad communication from the garage has made the problem worse, but if someone took a car into a garage with a noisy diff, but during a road test that diff then failed I don’t believe it’s down to the garage to fix for free just because it was drivable beforehand - cars gone in with a fault - during testing the fault got worse till it failed- it still had the fault and was always going to need to be repaired
The worrying bit is the seized thing (incorrect diagnosis) is probably no more than hyd lock that they created anyway by pressure testing a failed HG 
lots of opinions on here that I cant disagree with TBH 
purely because it sounds like the car was toast anyway (poor prior work) previous to your visit to the main stealer 
they just made things worse is all 
lots of opinions on here that I cant disagree with TBH purely because it sounds like the car was toast anyway (poor prior work) previous to your visit to the main stealer they just made things worse is all Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff