Ford Ka & forced induction
Discussion
I have just driven my Mum's Ford Ka, and apart from the simply appalling brakes it's incredibly good fun to drive, in the same vein as a proper Mini. I guess the wheel-at-each-corner approach is as valid as ever.
So... I was thinking of getting one, and endowing it with the same power-to-weight of a decent tweaked Mini. The brakes issue is easily sorted, but what to do with the engine?
I understand there are two sorts of engines in the Ka, the old iron development of the crossflow and the newer Zetec thingy (is this only in the Sport Ka?)
I don't fancy trad atmo tuning as returns are likely to be small and cost a lot on such a small capacity engine, so my options are:
1) engine swap
2) use a cheap, available supercharger
3) turbo conversion
Anyone here with info to help me out? Space is tight in the engine bay, but so is the Mini and people have done all sorts of nonsense with those :)
So... I was thinking of getting one, and endowing it with the same power-to-weight of a decent tweaked Mini. The brakes issue is easily sorted, but what to do with the engine?
I understand there are two sorts of engines in the Ka, the old iron development of the crossflow and the newer Zetec thingy (is this only in the Sport Ka?)
I don't fancy trad atmo tuning as returns are likely to be small and cost a lot on such a small capacity engine, so my options are:
1) engine swap
2) use a cheap, available supercharger
3) turbo conversion
Anyone here with info to help me out? Space is tight in the engine bay, but so is the Mini and people have done all sorts of nonsense with those :)
I believe a 2.0l zetec lump will fit in. These are very tuneable. I'm not sure what it will do to the hahdling with such a big engine over the front wheels though. Heres a link to someone who has stucl a 1800zetec in his www.cardomain.com/ride/834408
The Ka already has a light pressure turbo kit on the market, it was put together by Van Aaiken Developments.
The blower only provides 0.3bar boost, so there was no need to upgrade the internals.
There have also been several Ka's fitted with the Puma's 1.7VCT engine.
The newer Ka uses the rocam ohc engine now in both 1.6 and 1.3 form, the old OHv lump has been put out to pasture now.
If you want to take the Ka to stupid levels, have a look around the net for MAD and their conversions involving a bluetop cossie lump and RWD
The blower only provides 0.3bar boost, so there was no need to upgrade the internals.
There have also been several Ka's fitted with the Puma's 1.7VCT engine.
The newer Ka uses the rocam ohc engine now in both 1.6 and 1.3 form, the old OHv lump has been put out to pasture now.
If you want to take the Ka to stupid levels, have a look around the net for MAD and their conversions involving a bluetop cossie lump and RWD
Theres a kid local to me who stuck a small turbocharger onto his Ka.
I havent actually seen the conversion myself although a friend has, but he made an adaptor palce to bolt the turbo to the std manifold.
He modified an RS Turbo intercooler to fit, and basically stuck on a rising rate fuel pressure regulator !!!
Its never going to set the tarmac on fire, but it has helped things along a bit, and has cost virtually nothing.
I havent actually seen the conversion myself although a friend has, but he made an adaptor palce to bolt the turbo to the std manifold.
He modified an RS Turbo intercooler to fit, and basically stuck on a rising rate fuel pressure regulator !!!
Its never going to set the tarmac on fire, but it has helped things along a bit, and has cost virtually nothing.
small turbo sounds like a good idea! what size unit was he running and what are they off?
could also go for a new mini blower! £100 off ebay! but this would require more work than the turbo kit (if it really is that simple).
thaks Chris.
PS. you could always rip all the interior out, stick a cage in there, bigger brakes and then a 160bhp 1.6 zetec lump from a focus! hmmmmmmm
could also go for a new mini blower! £100 off ebay! but this would require more work than the turbo kit (if it really is that simple).
thaks Chris.
PS. you could always rip all the interior out, stick a cage in there, bigger brakes and then a 160bhp 1.6 zetec lump from a focus! hmmmmmmm
love machine said:
Get a full race BDA and bung that in. 320deg cam on a 5 speed SCCR dogbox. Weber DCOE 50's Yeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!
Nutball - I've only just talked myself out of slinging an Integra type R engine in a Mini, so less of the class-A stuff
From what I've seen anything involving carbs or TBs won't fit under the bonnet of a Ka without poking out of the front. This is a NO for me since I like stealth and silly little cars with silly performance
I've got an Eaton blower on my Porker so the Bini blower may work, not sure about space to fit though.
I've checked out the Van Aaken website re: their turbo conversion, and even though it's cheap and proven, it's not enough power
On a serious note, I would knock the CR up to about 11:1, ditch the fuel injection (as I like webers) bugger about with the head a tad. See about running about a 280/290 cam (8V) freeflow exhaust, a couple of 40's would probably do. Get it set up on a rolling road. PLUS it would sound cracking.
I reckon forced induction is one thing but if you have an engine which is capable of revving, it would be rude not to put a lairy cam and webers on it. The only reason my mini is running a blower is that I can't afford an EN40 bottom end.
Personally, for an 8V I reckon running less than a 300deg cam/12:1 is bad practice!!!
I reckon forced induction is one thing but if you have an engine which is capable of revving, it would be rude not to put a lairy cam and webers on it. The only reason my mini is running a blower is that I can't afford an EN40 bottom end.
Personally, for an 8V I reckon running less than a 300deg cam/12:1 is bad practice!!!
heya LM. Just done a bit of research and found a website called kaklub.co.uk - looks like there are a few engine transplant options.
If I were to do this I'd buy an older cheap car and do something mental to it, so that rules out later Sport Ka models with the decent engine. AFAIK the older ones have 'endura' iron block engines. Not sure they were really intended to rev high, and if the bottom end isn't up to the job then I'm not going to the expense of a full build.
It's apparently a 3k job to sling in a Puma 1.7 engine - I had a Racing Puma a while ago and that had 155 bhp standard, though I really want 200.
I hear you re: Webers - I had a 205 GTi with an Mi16 engine on twin 45s revving to 8500 for track days a couple of years ago it was utter mentalism, until a major brake failure completely destroyed my confidence in the car.
However twin carbs won't fit easily on a standard 1.3 endura engine, let alone bolting them onto a transplanted 1.7 Puma engine, unless I have a sodding great hole in the bonnet Mad Max style, which isn't really my style. The bonnet braces had to be cut to get twin 45s under the Pug bonnet, let alone the tiny front end of the Ka...
Looks like all the cars around the 200 bhp area are basically RS Turbo transplants (or a hybrid between the Zetec bottom end and the CVH head). Don't fancy 200 bhp from a 1.6 turbo because it'll be laggy, and I like corners, not trying to build a qtr mile special here.
Do you reckon the Bini blower will pump enough air for a 1.7 Racing Puma engine? Alternatively I could head / cam / manifolds on the Racing Puma engine, it would be a peaky bugger but it's lighter than the Puma was.
I'd have to get that silly ECU program off the FRP that deliberately overfuelled on overrun to generate pops and bangs in the exhaust
If I were to do this I'd buy an older cheap car and do something mental to it, so that rules out later Sport Ka models with the decent engine. AFAIK the older ones have 'endura' iron block engines. Not sure they were really intended to rev high, and if the bottom end isn't up to the job then I'm not going to the expense of a full build.
It's apparently a 3k job to sling in a Puma 1.7 engine - I had a Racing Puma a while ago and that had 155 bhp standard, though I really want 200.
I hear you re: Webers - I had a 205 GTi with an Mi16 engine on twin 45s revving to 8500 for track days a couple of years ago
it was utter mentalism, until a major brake failure completely destroyed my confidence in the car. However twin carbs won't fit easily on a standard 1.3 endura engine, let alone bolting them onto a transplanted 1.7 Puma engine, unless I have a sodding great hole in the bonnet Mad Max style, which isn't really my style. The bonnet braces had to be cut to get twin 45s under the Pug bonnet, let alone the tiny front end of the Ka...
Looks like all the cars around the 200 bhp area are basically RS Turbo transplants (or a hybrid between the Zetec bottom end and the CVH head). Don't fancy 200 bhp from a 1.6 turbo because it'll be laggy, and I like corners, not trying to build a qtr mile special here.
Do you reckon the Bini blower will pump enough air for a 1.7 Racing Puma engine? Alternatively I could head / cam / manifolds on the Racing Puma engine, it would be a peaky bugger but it's lighter than the Puma was.
I'd have to get that silly ECU program off the FRP that deliberately overfuelled on overrun to generate pops and bangs in the exhaust
The Eaton Spec for the M45 says that 1.6>2.0 is a valid capacity. Looking at the blower spec, I'd use it for smaller engines. Horribly inefficient, however despite this it would give good results. How about a Ka Twinny? It would be simple to rig, you'd be able to have twice the power, 4WD, tune the response via throttle quadrants, learn to drive it differently (as it would need careful setting up). Basically, having identical engines would give you big understeer, so you'd have to have a more energetic front engine under full tilt for around corners which you'd have to use.
I wasted a Ka^2 in a 998 mini and I reckon his shortcoming was handling. It needed to be stiffer and lower to say the least.
Twinnies are the way to go, John Cooper was adament until his death that they were the future, a few people did a load of research into making the things handle properly and I've thought about it some more and reckon I've come up with a few ideas. If you're curious email me.
I wasted a Ka^2 in a 998 mini and I reckon his shortcoming was handling. It needed to be stiffer and lower to say the least.
Twinnies are the way to go, John Cooper was adament until his death that they were the future, a few people did a load of research into making the things handle properly and I've thought about it some more and reckon I've come up with a few ideas. If you're curious email me.
LM - I'm talking reliable, stealthy performance here. It's going to be my girlfriend's car and station car, but given I like they way they handle, I'd like a power to weight ratio good enough to drive like an old Mini with a decently prepped 1380. I reckon 180-200 bhp would be adequate.
Twin engines sound like a *real* engineering job, twice the points of failure, packaging and cooling aggro for the rear engine, and a shit-load of bespoke parts. Mucho respect for considering this Not really ideal for what I want though.
Having done more research it looks like the Puma 1.7 engine is a drop-in job, with firms like Pumaspeed doing the entire conversion for 3k vat included. Tuning questions for the Puma 1.7 therefore in a new thread!!!!
Thanks for the advice all
Twin engines sound like a *real* engineering job, twice the points of failure, packaging and cooling aggro for the rear engine, and a shit-load of bespoke parts. Mucho respect for considering this
Not really ideal for what I want though. Having done more research it looks like the Puma 1.7 engine is a drop-in job, with firms like Pumaspeed doing the entire conversion for 3k vat included. Tuning questions for the Puma 1.7 therefore in a new thread!!!!
Thanks for the advice all
cyberface said:
LM - I'm talking reliable, stealthy performance here. It's going to be my girlfriend's car and station car, but given I like they way they handle, I'd like a power to weight ratio good enough to drive like an old Mini with a decently prepped 1380. I reckon 180-200 bhp would be adequate.
Twin engines sound like a *real* engineering job, twice the points of failure, packaging and cooling aggro for the rear engine, and a shit-load of bespoke parts. Mucho respect for considering this
Having done more research it looks like the Puma 1.7 engine is a drop-in job, with firms like Pumaspeed doing the entire conversion for 3k vat included. Tuning questions for the Puma 1.7 therefore in a new thread!!!!
Thanks for the advice all
No, you could put an auto engine in the back. if you positioned it right, you could do a "D" gear linkage where you weld a boss on the front of the box and a "D" to take it around the back where the selector rod is. You should have the ground clearance if you did it right. Mount the engines stiffly and link the rods, a custom selector is just a couple of plastic bushes and a rod welded to the top. Bearing in mind the engines are half as stressed (as you'd be running the same final drives) it would be a win-win situation. You could up the wheel size and jack it up a tad for extra (rally style) clearance and higher top speed. It would definately be doable. I agree with your thoughts about boost though, it would be a doable idea. With a budget of £3K, I'd be looking at putting in 2 transverse RV8's on princess gearboxes!!!
It would be rude not to breathe on the engine, if you're spending proper bucks and not going properly bad manners race style, forced induction is definately the go. You may as well not do things by halves.
(Tonight I have mostly been doodling with a 200hp/tonne mountfield lawnmower for next weekends lawnmover race!!! Will post pics in due course)
Stu
love machine said:Do you need any pit crew ???
(Tonight I have mostly been doodling with a 200hp/tonne mountfield lawnmower for next weekends lawnmover race!!! Will post pics in due course)
Stu
We ran Lawn bugs for years, but the team's sort of disbanded now
(actually just thought it's probably 6/7th isn't it ? I'm racing up north that weekend)
Incorrigible said:
(Tonight I have mostly been doodling with a 200hp/tonne mountfield lawnmower for next weekends lawnmover race!!! Will post pics in due course)
Stu
Do you need any pit crew ???
We ran Lawn bugs for years, but the team's sort of disbanded now
(actually just thought it's probably 6/7th isn't it ? I'm racing up north that weekend)
It's not that romantic, it's just a Suzuki jeep engine shoehorned into the mower. (The briggs shat itself last year running nitromethane/methanol!)
Soo...
I'd like to ask this question again. What sort of easy, cheap tuning options are available for a shagged out 2000 Ford Ka?
I could find nothing of the alleged turbo kits, so am thinking an engine swap would be easiest.
Dropping another Ford engine in there seems best, but what will go in? You could source one off ebay dead cheap that way. What engines would fit?
1.6 Zetec? 1.7 Puma engine? 1.8, 2.0??
Russell
I'd like to ask this question again. What sort of easy, cheap tuning options are available for a shagged out 2000 Ford Ka?
I could find nothing of the alleged turbo kits, so am thinking an engine swap would be easiest.
Dropping another Ford engine in there seems best, but what will go in? You could source one off ebay dead cheap that way. What engines would fit?
1.6 Zetec? 1.7 Puma engine? 1.8, 2.0??
Russell
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