What pistons + rods on a 2.0T FSI EA113 BWA?
Discussion
So, think the cam chain slipped on my Leon FR, and caused interference between the top and bottom end. It's tuned to 280BHP, the interference occured at around 6,000rpm, and the engine still ran well enough for me to drive the car into the workshop (but was missing on cylinders 2 and 4 due to valve damage) - so I'm kind of guessing the bottom end is fine, and will just be replacing the pistons and rods for peace of mind, considering piston 4 is the only one with surface damage from making contact with one of the intake valves.
However, I was wondering:
1. Where's the best place to get replacement parts such as pistons and rods at a relatively good price? I was hoping to get a set that would stop the motor burning oil, as that has been a problem for me. Is that just slightly larger rings - or larger pistons too?
2. Any weak-links I should replace whilst I've got the bottom end free? I know the bottom end is fairly tough, and I don't see myself going anywhere beyond 340bhp for the time being, but I do have a heavy foot, and I enjoy using everybit of the rev counter - so anything I can do to ensure reliability?
However, I was wondering:
1. Where's the best place to get replacement parts such as pistons and rods at a relatively good price? I was hoping to get a set that would stop the motor burning oil, as that has been a problem for me. Is that just slightly larger rings - or larger pistons too?
2. Any weak-links I should replace whilst I've got the bottom end free? I know the bottom end is fairly tough, and I don't see myself going anywhere beyond 340bhp for the time being, but I do have a heavy foot, and I enjoy using everybit of the rev counter - so anything I can do to ensure reliability?
lots of thinking and guessing here. Few actual facts from inspection or testing ? Probably makes more sense to find out what is actually wrong first, instead of guessing.
And chains jumping or slipping would be rather unusual.
No doubt there are various tuning companies that can sell parts or do the rebuild properly for you who won't do so much guessing. But Bartek do sell a lot of parts if you're gambling doing it yourself.
And chains jumping or slipping would be rather unusual.
No doubt there are various tuning companies that can sell parts or do the rebuild properly for you who won't do so much guessing. But Bartek do sell a lot of parts if you're gambling doing it yourself.
FakeCarGuy said:
...I was hoping to get a set that would stop the motor burning oil, as that has been a problem for me. Is that just slightly larger rings - or larger pistons too?
You need to ascertain why it's burning oil. Is it valve-gear related or piston group problems? Or elsewhere? As far as larger rings/pistons go, you can't fit anything bigger unless you rebore it to the first oversize. You may be confusing this with having the bores deglazed and new rings fitted of the same size (if that's what is needed).Sounds like some accurate measurements are needed and an experienced eye to assess the internals.
stevieturbo said:
lots of thinking and guessing here. Few actual facts from inspection or testing ? Probably makes more sense to find out what is actually wrong first, instead of guessing.
And chains jumping or slipping would be rather unusual.
No doubt there are various tuning companies that can sell parts or do the rebuild properly for you who won't do so much guessing. But Bartek do sell a lot of parts if you're gambling doing it yourself.
Thanks for the reply mate, I'm not going to pretend I know what I'm doing as I'm only just finishing my level 3 as a dealer tech, and you're right, I am just guessing so far as I don't have any working experience with this kind of stuff - I'm just going by my limited knowledge - as I obviously understand the inner workings of an engine to an extent, but admittedly I can't say that I have the experience or depth of knowledge required to make sure I carry this out adequately. And chains jumping or slipping would be rather unusual.
No doubt there are various tuning companies that can sell parts or do the rebuild properly for you who won't do so much guessing. But Bartek do sell a lot of parts if you're gambling doing it yourself.
It's something I'm really interested in getting better at though, so I am kind of wanting to do it myself, but I mostly just want the job done properly. How would you go about it mate? What kind of things should I be measuring, and what kind of tools will I be needing? Or would you just recommend me take it to a tuner?
I've got an engineering company that are happy to refurb the head for around £500, so maybe it's best if I take the block to them also. That way I can still save costs on putting everything back together in the vehicle (which I'm much more confident in getting done properly). The only thing is, I feel like I might aswell fit some peace-of-mind upgrades whilst I've got the block out the car - but I wouldn't know where to start or what to ask for from the engineering place. Thanks pal.
Also, the only reason I thought that the chain slipped is because the car had an agressive pops and bang map (which i was planning on getting removed, as I only had the car less than a month before the engine experienced internal damage). I was under the impression that the unburnt fuel and rich exhaust gasses were getting into the cylinder head, thinning out the oil and causing premature wear. That's just pure conjecture/speculation though to be honest.
Edited by FakeCarGuy on Thursday 29th July 18:09
littleredrooster said:
You need to ascertain why it's burning oil. Is it valve-gear related or piston group problems? Or elsewhere? As far as larger rings/pistons go, you can't fit anything bigger unless you rebore it to the first oversize. You may be confusing this with having the bores deglazed and new rings fitted of the same size (if that's what is needed).
Sounds like some accurate measurements are needed and an experienced eye to assess the internals.
My impression was that these engines are known to burn oil as the cylinder tolerances are quite large (An ex VW tech told me that they allow upto 1L of oil every 1000miles). Sounds like some accurate measurements are needed and an experienced eye to assess the internals.
I thought I'd seen an updated piston and ring kit that is supposed to get rid of the issue by being just slightly larger than the original ones. I could be wrong though mate as I'm just going by what little I've heard and read.
You're massively jumping the gun when you haven't even a clue what is wrong.
If you're a "dealer tech" at any level...finding out what is wrong should be very basic stuff. Unless they only teach you to wash cars.
Whilst Im wouldn't be keen on starting it....does it start and run ?
Have you pulled the plugs ? what do they look like ?
Can you scope crank/cam triggers to see if they are no longer in sync, comparing against a known good ? That will easily confirm if timing has jumped.
Can you do a compression test ? ( assuming plugs look ok ), and/or stick a bore camera down there for a nosey. And/or an in cylinder pressure test on the scope.
And what would I do ? I wouldn't be doing or buying s
t til I knew exactly what was wrong.
If you're a "dealer tech" at any level...finding out what is wrong should be very basic stuff. Unless they only teach you to wash cars.
Whilst Im wouldn't be keen on starting it....does it start and run ?
Have you pulled the plugs ? what do they look like ?
Can you scope crank/cam triggers to see if they are no longer in sync, comparing against a known good ? That will easily confirm if timing has jumped.
Can you do a compression test ? ( assuming plugs look ok ), and/or stick a bore camera down there for a nosey. And/or an in cylinder pressure test on the scope.
And what would I do ? I wouldn't be doing or buying s
t til I knew exactly what was wrong.And you're saying it is missing on cyls 2 and 4 due to valve damage...exactly how has this been confirmed ?
If valves were damged on either....it wouldnt be missing, it wouldnt be firing at all
A recent Pico diagnosis without ripping things apart.....and doing some simple tests ( with the right equipment and knowhow. )
https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/non-...
If valves were damged on either....it wouldnt be missing, it wouldnt be firing at all
A recent Pico diagnosis without ripping things apart.....and doing some simple tests ( with the right equipment and knowhow. )
https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/non-...
stevieturbo said:
You're massively jumping the gun when you haven't even a clue what is wrong.
If you're a "dealer tech" at any level...finding out what is wrong should be very basic stuff. Unless they only teach you to wash cars.
Whilst Im wouldn't be keen on starting it....does it start and run ?
Have you pulled the plugs ? what do they look like ?
Can you scope crank/cam triggers to see if they are no longer in sync, comparing against a known good ? That will easily confirm if timing has jumped.
Can you do a compression test ? ( assuming plugs look ok ), and/or stick a bore camera down there for a nosey. And/or an in cylinder pressure test on the scope.
And what would I do ? I wouldn't be doing or buying st til I knew exactly what was wrong.
I haven't jumped the gun on anything pal, that's why I'm on here asking questions... I was only stating what my initial thoughts were. Nowhere have I said that it's definitely a cam chain or that I definitely need to do anything on the bottom end. I'm only an apprentice dealer tech, and I've not got much experience. My diagnostic skills are obviously not anything to praise, and I never said they were...If you're a "dealer tech" at any level...finding out what is wrong should be very basic stuff. Unless they only teach you to wash cars.
Whilst Im wouldn't be keen on starting it....does it start and run ?
Have you pulled the plugs ? what do they look like ?
Can you scope crank/cam triggers to see if they are no longer in sync, comparing against a known good ? That will easily confirm if timing has jumped.
Can you do a compression test ? ( assuming plugs look ok ), and/or stick a bore camera down there for a nosey. And/or an in cylinder pressure test on the scope.
And what would I do ? I wouldn't be doing or buying s
t til I knew exactly what was wrong.I've already took the head off the engine as I used a boroscope and could see some damage on piston 4. I also had misfire codes on cylinder 2 and 4. I had the car recovered to my place of work when the engine initially went boom, and it was driveable into the garage before I started taking it apart. But obviously only running on 2 cylinders.
The plugs looked fine. Just black from running rich, but no real noticeable differences on any of the cylinders.
I actually did have compression on all 4 cylinders when I performed the tests, but 1 of each of the intake valves on cylinders 2 and 4 were bent and stuck closed.
I will admit I'm an idiot for not scoping the cams and crank, but due to time constraints at the time I was just trying to get the head off the engine as quick as possible (manager didn't want me taking up space on the ramp for too long) so I just tore it all apart and forgot to check the timing like an absolute donut.
stevieturbo said:
A recent Pico diagnosis without ripping things apart.....and doing some simple tests ( with the right equipment and knowhow. )
https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/non-...
To be honest pal I don't have that kind of software. If you've got any recommendations for good diagnostic software then please let me know cause I am on the look for some. https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/non-...
So we're getting info piecemeal and it's already partially apart.
For it to have compression with damaged valves...is extremely unusual, as there is no way the springs alone would have the ability to close a valve with a bent stem and it then to actually seal. It just borders on impossible. Even more so on 2 cylinders
But as it's apart anyway...hardly matters. If what you say about the head having issues is correct, get the head to someone competent so they can assess whether it just needs valves, or there is more extensive damage like damaged guides or seats.
As to whether there may be any piston or other damage....impossible to guess without a visual
TSR could be one place to ask about engine work.
https://tsr-performance.com/
For it to have compression with damaged valves...is extremely unusual, as there is no way the springs alone would have the ability to close a valve with a bent stem and it then to actually seal. It just borders on impossible. Even more so on 2 cylinders
But as it's apart anyway...hardly matters. If what you say about the head having issues is correct, get the head to someone competent so they can assess whether it just needs valves, or there is more extensive damage like damaged guides or seats.
As to whether there may be any piston or other damage....impossible to guess without a visual
TSR could be one place to ask about engine work.
https://tsr-performance.com/
My son has an A5 with the 2.0TFSI engine and has recently had similar problems. He took it in for repair and was told that there is a known issue on this engine with sub-standard piston rings (from new) which leads to excessive oil consumption. If that's not kept on top of, the timing chain tensioner gets starved of oil and then fails leading to the chain jumping and valve/piston contact.
How much of that is true and factual I don't know, and definitely don't want to argue about, however from a purely mechanical point of view it makes sense.
He ended up getting his engine rebuilt, with a number of new parts including, I believe, rings but not pistons, by a company with less than glowing reviews (that's a long story in itself). He's had it back a week and we wait to see how the longer term goes.
How much of that is true and factual I don't know, and definitely don't want to argue about, however from a purely mechanical point of view it makes sense.
He ended up getting his engine rebuilt, with a number of new parts including, I believe, rings but not pistons, by a company with less than glowing reviews (that's a long story in itself). He's had it back a week and we wait to see how the longer term goes.
stevieturbo said:
So we're getting info piecemeal and it's already partially apart.
For it to have compression with damaged valves...is extremely unusual, as there is no way the springs alone would have the ability to close a valve with a bent stem and it then to actually seal. It just borders on impossible. Even more so on 2 cylinders
But as it's apart anyway...hardly matters. If what you say about the head having issues is correct, get the head to someone competent so they can assess whether it just needs valves, or there is more extensive damage like damaged guides or seats.
As to whether there may be any piston or other damage....impossible to guess without a visual
TSR could be one place to ask about engine work.
https://tsr-performance.com/
Just found a used (70k miles) BWJ K1 cupra engine for £1100, (£1700 with the ancilliaries and Ko4 turbo, which I will opt for) that I'm going to shove in instead. For it to have compression with damaged valves...is extremely unusual, as there is no way the springs alone would have the ability to close a valve with a bent stem and it then to actually seal. It just borders on impossible. Even more so on 2 cylinders
But as it's apart anyway...hardly matters. If what you say about the head having issues is correct, get the head to someone competent so they can assess whether it just needs valves, or there is more extensive damage like damaged guides or seats.
As to whether there may be any piston or other damage....impossible to guess without a visual
TSR could be one place to ask about engine work.
https://tsr-performance.com/
Will take apart the old block and see whether or not it's worth rebuilding to sell on then. Atleast then I can still get some experience doing a job like that. Thanks for your helpful replies anyway bud.
Make sure both engines are identical and can be swapped, and even though they are same platform, some ancilliaries may be different too for teh different chassis. So pay attention to both when taking them apart or swapping parts over.
No idea if modern petrol DI injectors need coded to the ecu like diesel ones do, never really worked with DI petrol.
And if others are saying there are inherent oil system problems...might be worth looking at that while the other engine is out, prior to use.
No idea if modern petrol DI injectors need coded to the ecu like diesel ones do, never really worked with DI petrol.
And if others are saying there are inherent oil system problems...might be worth looking at that while the other engine is out, prior to use.
stevieturbo said:
Make sure both engines are identical and can be swapped, and even though they are same platform, some ancilliaries may be different too for teh different chassis. So pay attention to both when taking them apart or swapping parts over.
No idea if modern petrol DI injectors need coded to the ecu like diesel ones do, never really worked with DI petrol.
And if others are saying there are inherent oil system problems...might be worth looking at that while the other engine is out, prior to use.
Yeah I've spoke to a specialist 2.0T FSI tuner (r-tech) and they were the ones who recommended that I go this route as the ancilliaries are all the same thankfully. I've asked for the ECU with the engine too as the replacement engine would surely run like a bag of sNo idea if modern petrol DI injectors need coded to the ecu like diesel ones do, never really worked with DI petrol.
And if others are saying there are inherent oil system problems...might be worth looking at that while the other engine is out, prior to use.
t using my old one. This is very true, I mean VW have said that 1L per 1000miles is 'normal' - but will burning oil cause any major issues, apart from efficiency and staining the inlet manifold and such? I was only going to do something about it because I was already planning on swapping the pistons to be honest.
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