HHO Hydrogen IC Boost Systems....Do they work??
Discussion
Does anyone have any genuine knowledge of, made one, or has one of these on-board Hydrogen generation systems fitted to their vehicle as an addition to either squeezing more MPG or BHP out of their engine?
Does anyone have dyno prints or engine logs as proof of one or the other?
I have read and looked at many plans and ideas for building one of these systems and i have my own ideas about building and plumbing a system into my Subaru.
I've done a shedload of reading on the subject, and digested and thought a lot about opinions from both the pro's and con's lobby on whether or not this really works. On average opinions seem divided at 50% for and 50% against with lots of science being thrown in from both sides to backup claims and opinions. These systems seem to be pretty popular in the USA...but that's the USA. I'm more interested about people using these kits in the UK!!
So...can these things really save MPG, run your engine cleanly, and potentially make more power seeing as the actual combustion of fuel is more complete via the addition of HHO, or is this all just a load of old tosh!!
Does anyone have dyno prints or engine logs as proof of one or the other?
I have read and looked at many plans and ideas for building one of these systems and i have my own ideas about building and plumbing a system into my Subaru.
I've done a shedload of reading on the subject, and digested and thought a lot about opinions from both the pro's and con's lobby on whether or not this really works. On average opinions seem divided at 50% for and 50% against with lots of science being thrown in from both sides to backup claims and opinions. These systems seem to be pretty popular in the USA...but that's the USA. I'm more interested about people using these kits in the UK!!
So...can these things really save MPG, run your engine cleanly, and potentially make more power seeing as the actual combustion of fuel is more complete via the addition of HHO, or is this all just a load of old tosh!!
This isn't about bending the laws of physics and after much reading that is absolutely the case.
It's about the addition of a gas (HHO) produced in-vehicle that is fed into the combustion chamber along with a mixture of petrol and air, making for a more complete burn of all the fuel in the cylinder, leading to increased compression, cooler cylinder temps, reduced emissions, more MPG and more BHP. I'm not bothered about more MPG. just more BHP.
I'm treating this a bit like fuel additives and other such methods of producing more power. This isn't bending the laws of physics is it??.
It's about the addition of a gas (HHO) produced in-vehicle that is fed into the combustion chamber along with a mixture of petrol and air, making for a more complete burn of all the fuel in the cylinder, leading to increased compression, cooler cylinder temps, reduced emissions, more MPG and more BHP. I'm not bothered about more MPG. just more BHP.
I'm treating this a bit like fuel additives and other such methods of producing more power. This isn't bending the laws of physics is it??.
ScoobieWRX said:
This isn't about bending the laws of physics and after much reading that is absolutely the case.
It's about the addition of a gas (HHO) produced in-vehicle that is fed into the combustion chamber along with a mixture of petrol and air, making for a more complete burn of all the fuel in the cylinder, leading to increased compression, cooler cylinder temps, reduced emissions, more MPG and more BHP. I'm not bothered about more MPG. just more BHP.
I'm treating this a bit like fuel additives and other such methods of producing more power. This isn't bending the laws of physics is it??.
It just goes to show how many loony ideas it takes to immunise a sentient population against change.It's about the addition of a gas (HHO) produced in-vehicle that is fed into the combustion chamber along with a mixture of petrol and air, making for a more complete burn of all the fuel in the cylinder, leading to increased compression, cooler cylinder temps, reduced emissions, more MPG and more BHP. I'm not bothered about more MPG. just more BHP.
I'm treating this a bit like fuel additives and other such methods of producing more power. This isn't bending the laws of physics is it??.
There is no reason why using such a system could not be an advantage, but how much of an advantage, is in the realm of experiment. Some people have suggested that it could be so much of an advantage that a source fuel is not required, but that is surely false.
At the very least it's going to save the loss of energy from your alternator, which is not always operating at 100%, but which always presents some sort of load. There is undoubtedly an efficiency gain to be had there, without any of the arguments for or against the improvement in fuel burn gained through using HHO.
It may be the case that a simple automatic clutch presents more of an efficiency gain than using spare energy generated to produce HHO and then burn it. I suspect that is the case.
Edited by dilbert on Monday 17th November 18:45
I'm genuinely thinking of building my own, more out of curiosity and as a bit of a winter garage project than anything else. It may well be a very effective method of generating some more bhp or may well be a complete pile of poo, in anycase i will find out for myself as i don't know of anyone using an HHO system in the UK.
I will of course put it to the dyno test and see if it makes any differnce in before and after, and as i've already stated more MPG isn't a requirement here.
You never know...there might be something in it and even if it only generated 10% more power on a car that's already running c.350bhp 35 extra ponies for very little money is a serious bargain!! Even at 5% extra bhp it's worth it. How many of us have installed induction systems for a net gain of only 5 or ten bhp and spent a lot of money in the process.
I think it's worth a bash although others may just completely dismiss it as hogwash!!
I will of course put it to the dyno test and see if it makes any differnce in before and after, and as i've already stated more MPG isn't a requirement here.
You never know...there might be something in it and even if it only generated 10% more power on a car that's already running c.350bhp 35 extra ponies for very little money is a serious bargain!! Even at 5% extra bhp it's worth it. How many of us have installed induction systems for a net gain of only 5 or ten bhp and spent a lot of money in the process.
I think it's worth a bash although others may just completely dismiss it as hogwash!!
If all you're bothered about is bhp then the most restrictive thing in your engine is the cylinder head. The Subaru head is shockingly inefficient with a big restriction in the inlet port design. No matter how high you raise the boost they run into a brick wall at about 360 bhp because the engine can't get any more air in. The EVOs by comparison go on to easily beat 400 bhp with similar boost increases and better intercoolers etc.
I did a head for a guy in Aberdeen last year, still just on the standard valve sizes, and on an otherwise standard engine it's now producing nearly 500 bhp at about 1.7 bar boost and is still as tractable as a standard car on the road. It did however rip all the teeth off third gear (I think it was third) when they first hit 400 bhp. Some fancy Australian gearbox was needed to solve that if I recall correctly but it's now pretty much bulletproof. With cams it would be 550 bhp at the same boost. With a capacity increase and other work it could be higher still. So getting power out of them is not a problem. What these HHO systems do I'm not going to comment on other than agree with what others have said.
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines
I did a head for a guy in Aberdeen last year, still just on the standard valve sizes, and on an otherwise standard engine it's now producing nearly 500 bhp at about 1.7 bar boost and is still as tractable as a standard car on the road. It did however rip all the teeth off third gear (I think it was third) when they first hit 400 bhp. Some fancy Australian gearbox was needed to solve that if I recall correctly but it's now pretty much bulletproof. With cams it would be 550 bhp at the same boost. With a capacity increase and other work it could be higher still. So getting power out of them is not a problem. What these HHO systems do I'm not going to comment on other than agree with what others have said.
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines
ScoobieWRX said:
rev-erend said:
When you see how much hydrogen is produced.. well you just know it's a con.
Wanna buy some snake oil
Snake oil sounds good so long as it's applied liberally by a naked female Thai masuse, and not using her hands!! Wanna buy some snake oil
piquet said:
sorry if i'm being dumb, but isn't HHO just H2O?
When in liquid form WATER is H2O, all the molecules are stuck together.When you seperate the gas from water the molecules also seperate from eachother and collectively these molecules become known as HHO, Brown's Gas or Oxyhydrogen.
rev-erend said:
ScoobieWRX said:
rev-erend said:
When you see how much hydrogen is produced.. well you just know it's a con.
Wanna buy some snake oil
Snake oil sounds good so long as it's applied liberally by a naked female Thai masuse, and not using her hands!! Wanna buy some snake oil
ScoobieWRX said:
OK...i now have a way of keeping the Oxygen and Hydrogen gasses separate from eachother so i will only be using the Hydrogen for a bigger bang rather than introducing oxygen as well that leans off the air fuel mix as i'm not interested in economy.
Err. I'm not sure you want to do that. I mean HHO is the ultimate volatile gas. If you burn it, it turns to water, and if you electrolyse the water, you get HHO. Admittedly nothing in this world is perfect, and you can easily separate the gasses if you want, but the thing is that HHO as produced is the perfect gas for buring since the "mixture" is already correct for combustion.Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 18th November 17:33
Pumaracing said:
If all you're bothered about is bhp then the most restrictive thing in your engine is the cylinder head. The Subaru head is shockingly inefficient with a big restriction in the inlet port design. No matter how high you raise the boost they run into a brick wall at about 360 bhp because the engine can't get any more air in. The EVOs by comparison go on to easily beat 400 bhp with similar boost increases and better intercoolers etc.
I did a head for a guy in Aberdeen last year, still just on the standard valve sizes, and on an otherwise standard engine it's now producing nearly 500 bhp at about 1.7 bar boost and is still as tractable as a standard car on the road. It did however rip all the teeth off third gear (I think it was third) when they first hit 400 bhp. Some fancy Australian gearbox was needed to solve that if I recall correctly but it's now pretty much bulletproof. With cams it would be 550 bhp at the same boost. With a capacity increase and other work it could be higher still. So getting power out of them is not a problem. What these HHO systems do I'm not going to comment on other than agree with what others have said.
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines
I'd have to strongly disagree with you there.I did a head for a guy in Aberdeen last year, still just on the standard valve sizes, and on an otherwise standard engine it's now producing nearly 500 bhp at about 1.7 bar boost and is still as tractable as a standard car on the road. It did however rip all the teeth off third gear (I think it was third) when they first hit 400 bhp. Some fancy Australian gearbox was needed to solve that if I recall correctly but it's now pretty much bulletproof. With cams it would be 550 bhp at the same boost. With a capacity increase and other work it could be higher still. So getting power out of them is not a problem. What these HHO systems do I'm not going to comment on other than agree with what others have said.
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines
Making 400bhp in standard heads with a Subaru, is a doddle. Even 500bhp on standard heads and cams isnt overly difficult.
The first major internal limitation you will hit, is conrods. They might last...or they might not, and that is in the 350-400 area.
Even standard UK or non STI cast pistons can tolerate 400bhp reliably if well tuned.
360bhp is very easy to achieve on virtually any Subaru, with basic bolt on mods and supported tuning.
Surpassing it most definately does not require cylinder head upgrades.
There is already plenty of oxygen/air in the combustion chamber (forced induction) without adding any more to it to lean it out more than it already is. I've currently mapped my Air Fuel Ratio around mid 11's at at peak power with 99RON fuel only and based upon my current configuration that's lean enough as it is without knocking, and i don't want to mess with the AFR either, however if i end up having to use the whole gas so be it and i will map accordingly.
I'm more interested in completely burning all the fuel in the cylinder that normally gets wasted and chucked out of the exhaust, i don't want to lean the mix any further so taking out the oxygen bit should provide the desired result, in theory.
There is already water vapour being pulled in to the engine from the HHO generator so that should keep cylinders cool. I think Hydrogen burns cool anyway so with a bit of luck internal temps should be down all round which would be great.
It's all theory though and it may be i end up having to use the whole gas for better results, who knows and i won't be able to tell until i experiment and do some logs. Perhaps someone with a bit of knowledge of these things can advise before i turn my car into an experimental Atom Bomb!!
and PUMARACING.... Talk to Vixpy1 as he knows a chap with an STi8 engined scooby, with standard internals, head etc..., running 500bhp. My WRX to STi8 conversion kicks out about 350 currently and i know for a fact it will take 400bhp on standard internals all day long without a worry and without messing about with head mods. All i need is a bigger turbo and modify my injectors to get 400bhp, add an FMIC and we'll be seeing 450bhp no probs, but that's not to say i am willing to push it that far on std internals.
As stevieturbo has said, the heads aren't a restriction.
I'm more interested in completely burning all the fuel in the cylinder that normally gets wasted and chucked out of the exhaust, i don't want to lean the mix any further so taking out the oxygen bit should provide the desired result, in theory.
There is already water vapour being pulled in to the engine from the HHO generator so that should keep cylinders cool. I think Hydrogen burns cool anyway so with a bit of luck internal temps should be down all round which would be great.
It's all theory though and it may be i end up having to use the whole gas for better results, who knows and i won't be able to tell until i experiment and do some logs. Perhaps someone with a bit of knowledge of these things can advise before i turn my car into an experimental Atom Bomb!!
and PUMARACING.... Talk to Vixpy1 as he knows a chap with an STi8 engined scooby, with standard internals, head etc..., running 500bhp. My WRX to STi8 conversion kicks out about 350 currently and i know for a fact it will take 400bhp on standard internals all day long without a worry and without messing about with head mods. All i need is a bigger turbo and modify my injectors to get 400bhp, add an FMIC and we'll be seeing 450bhp no probs, but that's not to say i am willing to push it that far on std internals.
As stevieturbo has said, the heads aren't a restriction.
Edited by ScoobieWRX on Tuesday 18th November 18:33
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