Cars that are 'well built' ?
Discussion
would anyone like to name cars that they've worked on that are 'well built' and ones that are poorly built with specific examples of how a car achieves this sort of status. What makes them well built ? is it the arrangemnet and layout of stuff, the way certain components are protected, the materials used or general design and construction ?
i have looked under very very few cars in detail so have no idea how things can vary but would love to hear any examples
i have looked under very very few cars in detail so have no idea how things can vary but would love to hear any examples
Many modern cars are probably built to a similar level of well-built-ness, but they have varying amounts of accessibility, which I find to be much more important having big/wide hands. Most cars are designed to be hard to work on now to dissuade the DIYer from going near anything. This is why I try to avoid working on modern cars. One example is the fabia VRs. To change the filter you need to undo a plastic topped canister which requires a 36mm socket. Which would be fine if the thing wasn't made of the same cheap plastic that every new car has in/on it.
Good solid construction and lots of design innovations of the day. Many of which are to costly to replicate in modern times. Only the gearbox has a weakness if you tune the engine to far or so I've read.Its a good question... Ease of working on... or quality of build...
I did a clutch change a month ago on my Polo, I also did one on a mates KA...
The KA was a fair bit easier to get appart, less of a mission to get the gearbox back in...
However, on the polo its built in such a way that you could change the clutch hundreds of times....wheras on the KA if you tried to do it more than twice bits would start to wear out... (Cheap pipe clips, horrible plastic fixings)
I would rather work on the polo anyday...its bolted together with good quality bolts... the KA is just stuck together with blutac
I did a clutch change a month ago on my Polo, I also did one on a mates KA...
The KA was a fair bit easier to get appart, less of a mission to get the gearbox back in...
However, on the polo its built in such a way that you could change the clutch hundreds of times....wheras on the KA if you tried to do it more than twice bits would start to wear out... (Cheap pipe clips, horrible plastic fixings)
I would rather work on the polo anyday...its bolted together with good quality bolts... the KA is just stuck together with blutac
tegwin said:
wher as on the KA if you tried to do it more than twice bits would start to wear out... (Cheap pipe clips, horrible plastic fixings)
That's a good call. Hadn't really thought of that. On the Astra we had as a Rally car we were so used to stripping and rebuilding everything that anything not upto the job was replaced sharpish with a better part.Another vote for quality of fasteners. I have an old Alfa 164 which is getting on for a quarter of a million miles. My wife has a 156 which (I predict!) won't get anywhere near that before it dies! The 164 was designed when Alfa's reputation sucked. Their cars rusted in the showrooms and the "quality" of their electrics was infamous. I think they tried very had to achieve BMW-like levels of build quality and (in my view) very nearly succeeded. Lots of little things like how the wiring loom is supported, routed and clipped in areas that you can't see (e.g. behind the dash). Also, the fact that the car can be taken apart and put together again multiple times because the quality (and quantity) of fasteners is better. Every job I do on the 156 I end up snapping some crappy little plastic clip that has either gone brittle, or was designed to be replaced every time it was removed (or both). Generous specification of components is a good sign too. Wheel bearings, CV joints, "proper" hose clips instead of those "snap-together" one-piece bands that you can't really re-use more than a few times. The air filter housing on the 156 is a good example. A big plastic moulding whose lid is secured by three steel screws that go onto brass inserts moulded into the body of the housing. It's right near the front of the car where all the salt spray goes and surprise, surprise, due to the fact that the bolts and inserts are dissimilar metals, they corrode together and the inserts just rip out of the housing. How much extra per car would three brass screws have cost?! Decent seals on electrical connectors is another good example.
W124 Mercedes 500E
Behind the front bumper and quite low down is an oil cooler. The cooler is held in place on a solid pivot at the top, 2 springs reach forwards and pull the cooler vertical.
This is so if you drive up and hit a high kerb, the cooler simply swings out of the way and when you reverse swings back into position, a lovely little feature and great attention to detail.
Dave!
Behind the front bumper and quite low down is an oil cooler. The cooler is held in place on a solid pivot at the top, 2 springs reach forwards and pull the cooler vertical.
This is so if you drive up and hit a high kerb, the cooler simply swings out of the way and when you reverse swings back into position, a lovely little feature and great attention to detail.
Dave!
Toyota - Quality fastners, pretapped holes, excellent design for access & working on. 10,12,14,17mm spanners & sockets do most jobs. No stupid fastners. Quality sealed electrical plugs in critical places. Wheel studs that make wheel changing easy.
VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
cptsideways said:
Toyota - Quality fastners, pretapped holes, excellent design for access & working on. 10,12,14,17mm spanners & sockets do most jobs. No stupid fastners. Quality sealed electrical plugs in critical places. Wheel studs that make wheel changing easy.
VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
Spot on VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
but then i am very biased towards Japanese engineering quality that the others can only dream of.Some cars I have spannered on below;
BMW 325i E30 mid early 80's vintage - everything is just so nice to take apart, everything is torqued up just so and the fittings are a lovely quality.
Citroen Saxo 1999 - pile of poo in every aspect, I don't know why I was happy letting my daughter out driving the thing!
New Mini Cooper S 2004 - really plasticky poor quality fixtures but much better than the French car!
BMW 528i E39 1997 - in between the build quality of the E30 and the Cooper S but much nearer to the E30 so nice to work on but you can see its built to a price in some aspects.
BMW 325i E30 mid early 80's vintage - everything is just so nice to take apart, everything is torqued up just so and the fittings are a lovely quality.
Citroen Saxo 1999 - pile of poo in every aspect, I don't know why I was happy letting my daughter out driving the thing!
New Mini Cooper S 2004 - really plasticky poor quality fixtures but much better than the French car!
BMW 528i E39 1997 - in between the build quality of the E30 and the Cooper S but much nearer to the E30 so nice to work on but you can see its built to a price in some aspects.
That Daddy said:
cptsideways said:
Toyota - Quality fastners, pretapped holes, excellent design for access & working on. 10,12,14,17mm spanners & sockets do most jobs. No stupid fastners. Quality sealed electrical plugs in critical places. Wheel studs that make wheel changing easy.
VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
Spot on VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
but then i am very biased towards Japanese engineering quality that the others can only dream of.
The Excession said:
That Daddy said:
cptsideways said:
Toyota - Quality fastners, pretapped holes, excellent design for access & working on. 10,12,14,17mm spanners & sockets do most jobs. No stupid fastners. Quality sealed electrical plugs in critical places. Wheel studs that make wheel changing easy.
VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
Spot on VW - Crap fastners, a different clip, bolt, torx for every job, non retained fastners behind bulkheads (so you lose the poxy nuts) lots of post design add on bodges. In no way designed to be accessed with ease. Exposed electrical plugs unsealed in many critical places eg ABS units! Wheel bolts so you can't locate wheels easily. Utter crap
Rover - 90's vintage crap fastners that rust within a week, ecu mounted in engine bay where they get wet/hot/cold/damp. Alloys wheels that seize to hubs.
Honda - from same factory had cadnium fasters in same places no rust to this day. ECU's behind bulkheads. Non corroding alloys.
but then i am very biased towards Japanese engineering quality that the others can only dream of.
t,mind you a couple of well known german cars manufacturers electrics arnt what they once were 
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