Clutch failure - update and more advice
Discussion
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Things are getting nmessy 'tween BMW specialist (the term is loosely used) and son and I need to help point him in the right direction. He's been speaking to CAB and it all seems a little vague as to what he should do.
Since he's spoken to CAB we have managed to get a copy of the analysis report from LUK. The specialist has forwarded it to us as a photo and I can't get it reproduced here with sufficient clarity to be read.
The nub of the report...
1.the pressure plate has cracked due to excessive heat build up normally associated with clutch slip.
2.the findings confirm the clutch has been operated for an extended time in a partially disengaged state leading to the failure.
3.distortion of the cover plate around the dowel/bolt holes would suggest the cover plate has been overtightened most likely with an air gun
4.inspection of the driven plate reveals a pronounced ring of scoring on the flywheel side suggesting the flywheel is damaged...a replacement flywheel had been fitted at the time the clutch was replaced but was not available for inspection
5. failure cannot be attributed to a manufacturing defect.
Points 1&2 IMO were caused by driving the car in 2nd gear after the clutch had failed - there was a very strong smell of burnt clutch once the car arrived home. LUK haven't taken that into consideration it seems and I don't hold out much hope of making any headway by pursuing that with LUK or the specialist.
Point 3, cover plate fitted with an air gun! With my limited experience of clutch changes I always thought cover plate bolts should be progressively tightened to a specified torque not simply rammed on with an air gun. I don't hold out any hope that the latest clutch has been fitted with any more care.
Point 4, it seems that the latest clutch has been fitted to a scored flywheel and will do nothing in helping this clutch achieve its expected service life. The highlighted text certainly raised nmy eyebrows!
He's gone from the laughable position of calling me 3 weeks ago to ask what type of flywheel was fitted to the car (solid or dual mass) to telling me and LUK that a replacement flywheel was fitted!
Having spoken to garage he now tells me a used, but re-faced(refaced correctly) dual mass flywheel was fitted at the same time as the first clutch! I'm smelling a lot of BS.
Can dual mass flywheels be refaced? A quick ferret on the net suggests not.
He must have fitted it gratis because there is nothing on any invoice for the last clutch change.
I'm now getting myself into the horrible position of being piggy-in-the-middle. Garage wants paying in full now. Son is adamant that garage was less than professional in fitting the first clutch - and probably the second too. He has got a potential time bomb with the current clutch and he will pay him nothing.
Sadly I'm seeing more evidence of shoddy work appearing as a result of the work carried out by garage...new pads and discs were fitted in the middle of the year and the car just failed its MOT due to brake imbalance - one set of pads were found siezed in the caliper housing, had to be hammered out to be freed off. Underfilled sump after oil change because they thought it took 5lts and not 6.5ltrs oil.
Any comments on the above? particularly with reference to quality of work carried out, the fitting of a clutch to a less than satisfactory flywheel and the re-surfacing of a dual mass flywheel.
I'm inclined to tell son to offer him a percentage of the £238 the garage wants for the clutch kit (labour element has already been paid)and be done with it - thoughts?
Thanks
Things are getting nmessy 'tween BMW specialist (the term is loosely used) and son and I need to help point him in the right direction. He's been speaking to CAB and it all seems a little vague as to what he should do.
Since he's spoken to CAB we have managed to get a copy of the analysis report from LUK. The specialist has forwarded it to us as a photo and I can't get it reproduced here with sufficient clarity to be read.
The nub of the report...
1.the pressure plate has cracked due to excessive heat build up normally associated with clutch slip.
2.the findings confirm the clutch has been operated for an extended time in a partially disengaged state leading to the failure.
3.distortion of the cover plate around the dowel/bolt holes would suggest the cover plate has been overtightened most likely with an air gun
4.inspection of the driven plate reveals a pronounced ring of scoring on the flywheel side suggesting the flywheel is damaged...a replacement flywheel had been fitted at the time the clutch was replaced but was not available for inspection
5. failure cannot be attributed to a manufacturing defect.
Points 1&2 IMO were caused by driving the car in 2nd gear after the clutch had failed - there was a very strong smell of burnt clutch once the car arrived home. LUK haven't taken that into consideration it seems and I don't hold out much hope of making any headway by pursuing that with LUK or the specialist.
Point 3, cover plate fitted with an air gun! With my limited experience of clutch changes I always thought cover plate bolts should be progressively tightened to a specified torque not simply rammed on with an air gun. I don't hold out any hope that the latest clutch has been fitted with any more care.
Point 4, it seems that the latest clutch has been fitted to a scored flywheel and will do nothing in helping this clutch achieve its expected service life. The highlighted text certainly raised nmy eyebrows!
He's gone from the laughable position of calling me 3 weeks ago to ask what type of flywheel was fitted to the car (solid or dual mass) to telling me and LUK that a replacement flywheel was fitted!
Having spoken to garage he now tells me a used, but re-faced(refaced correctly) dual mass flywheel was fitted at the same time as the first clutch! I'm smelling a lot of BS.
Can dual mass flywheels be refaced? A quick ferret on the net suggests not.
He must have fitted it gratis because there is nothing on any invoice for the last clutch change.
I'm now getting myself into the horrible position of being piggy-in-the-middle. Garage wants paying in full now. Son is adamant that garage was less than professional in fitting the first clutch - and probably the second too. He has got a potential time bomb with the current clutch and he will pay him nothing.
Sadly I'm seeing more evidence of shoddy work appearing as a result of the work carried out by garage...new pads and discs were fitted in the middle of the year and the car just failed its MOT due to brake imbalance - one set of pads were found siezed in the caliper housing, had to be hammered out to be freed off. Underfilled sump after oil change because they thought it took 5lts and not 6.5ltrs oil.
Any comments on the above? particularly with reference to quality of work carried out, the fitting of a clutch to a less than satisfactory flywheel and the re-surfacing of a dual mass flywheel.
I'm inclined to tell son to offer him a percentage of the £238 the garage wants for the clutch kit (labour element has already been paid)and be done with it - thoughts?
Thanks
wildoliver said:
You shouldn't be paying anything IMO.
Luk are basically saying it is either user error or fitting error.
The fact the cover plate is distorted backs up fitting error.
The refaced flywheel sounds like a lie.
I'd be wanting money back from the first job never mind paying for the second.
That's certainly a valid POV...though at the moment I really do feel like throwing the garage a few bob and telling that's it. It's this mysterious flywheel he's suddenly "remembered" fitting FOC that's boiling my blood.Luk are basically saying it is either user error or fitting error.
The fact the cover plate is distorted backs up fitting error.
The refaced flywheel sounds like a lie.
I'd be wanting money back from the first job never mind paying for the second.
I've asked LUK to confirm by email that the incorrect fitting of the cover plate etc might have caused/contributed towards the failure.
None of this has answered the primary question of why the clutch failed, or started slipping in the first place, if that's in fact what caused the pressure plate to crack. As I told you to start with you need the parts back for an independent expert's opinion. You can hardly rely on the supplier, LUK, to say it's a manufacturing defect in their own product with any certainty if they think they can pass responsibility to someone else.
As for overtightening the pressure plate, well basically you can't. Where the bolts go it's just a flat surface clamping to another one, the flywheel. You could strip the bolts but no amount of force there can alter how the clutch operates. It sounds like LUK trying to find things to take the blame off their own product. Where the plate fits over the dowels doesn't even experience any load that so that part is nonsense too. I wouldn't believe a word that LUK have written to be honest.
The resurfaced flywheel is obviously b*llocks but whether it was bad enough to affect anything materially is debateable. You can resurface dual mass flywheels if the halves unbolt but I don't know if yours does. Clearly he would never have had that done without charging you though. You might ask him to supply an invoice for that work and see how much that discomforts him. Tell him you'll raise it in court if he can't back up his claim.
From my experience of county courts you'd win a small claim with appropriate expert opinion and probably even without because the lie about the resurfaced flywheel would really hurt the guy in court and the brakes, oil etc wouldn't hurt your case either. Howver the brake calipers could have seized anyway after the pads were replaced so there isn't much mileage there.
One question that springs to mind is why did the original clutch need replacing? If it had started slipping then it was probably down to the rivets and the flywheel would have been damaged by that to some extent. That should have been raised when the garage got the gearbox off.
You can do two things. Pay up and get on with your life or fight it. I always do the latter and most people can't take the grief and do the former. A court case will be mega stress, even in the small claims court, so I'm not going to advise one way or the other but you might at least write to the guy saying you want your money back or you'll sue and mention every salient point that will hurt him in court like the flywheel resurfacing, oil, brakes etc and see if he caves in. If he doesn't you can still back down but a few stroppy letters won't cost you anything. You might grind him down if you're determined enough. I'll bet good money you won't be though. You'll have a good whinge on here for a while which might make you feel better but you'll never see it through. Very few people do. If you, or at least your son, were that way inclined you wouldn't have paid up meekly for the first clutch to have been replaced again so soon. You'd have told him you wanted it done FOC to start with. Still, it takes up a bit of spare internet bandwidth eh?
As for overtightening the pressure plate, well basically you can't. Where the bolts go it's just a flat surface clamping to another one, the flywheel. You could strip the bolts but no amount of force there can alter how the clutch operates. It sounds like LUK trying to find things to take the blame off their own product. Where the plate fits over the dowels doesn't even experience any load that so that part is nonsense too. I wouldn't believe a word that LUK have written to be honest.
The resurfaced flywheel is obviously b*llocks but whether it was bad enough to affect anything materially is debateable. You can resurface dual mass flywheels if the halves unbolt but I don't know if yours does. Clearly he would never have had that done without charging you though. You might ask him to supply an invoice for that work and see how much that discomforts him. Tell him you'll raise it in court if he can't back up his claim.
From my experience of county courts you'd win a small claim with appropriate expert opinion and probably even without because the lie about the resurfaced flywheel would really hurt the guy in court and the brakes, oil etc wouldn't hurt your case either. Howver the brake calipers could have seized anyway after the pads were replaced so there isn't much mileage there.
One question that springs to mind is why did the original clutch need replacing? If it had started slipping then it was probably down to the rivets and the flywheel would have been damaged by that to some extent. That should have been raised when the garage got the gearbox off.
You can do two things. Pay up and get on with your life or fight it. I always do the latter and most people can't take the grief and do the former. A court case will be mega stress, even in the small claims court, so I'm not going to advise one way or the other but you might at least write to the guy saying you want your money back or you'll sue and mention every salient point that will hurt him in court like the flywheel resurfacing, oil, brakes etc and see if he caves in. If he doesn't you can still back down but a few stroppy letters won't cost you anything. You might grind him down if you're determined enough. I'll bet good money you won't be though. You'll have a good whinge on here for a while which might make you feel better but you'll never see it through. Very few people do. If you, or at least your son, were that way inclined you wouldn't have paid up meekly for the first clutch to have been replaced again so soon. You'd have told him you wanted it done FOC to start with. Still, it takes up a bit of spare internet bandwidth eh?
Edited by Pumaracing on Tuesday 25th November 18:12
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