Car died and won't fire.
Discussion
Last night I got in my car (a 99 Legacy GTB), drove 200 yards down the road and it spluttered and died. Felt like either no fuel or spark.
Fuel pump is priming, it turns over and occationally tries to fire on one or maybe two cylinders but thats it.
I had a few errors showing up, namely...
poo66 Air assisted injector control circuit or circuit low
p0065 Air assisted injector control circuit range/performance
Which I've had and cleared many times before,
Another about heater control or something.
And another saying something like "wrong immobilizer key"
Not sure about this one as ever since I've had the car the immobilizer inside the standard key was removed. I assumed this was because it has a Clifford Concept 300 alarm.
I reset the ECU and the codes cleared and they do not come back while cranking.
Any ideas where to start with this one?
Fuel pump is priming, it turns over and occationally tries to fire on one or maybe two cylinders but thats it.
I had a few errors showing up, namely...
poo66 Air assisted injector control circuit or circuit low
p0065 Air assisted injector control circuit range/performance
Which I've had and cleared many times before,
Another about heater control or something.
And another saying something like "wrong immobilizer key"
Not sure about this one as ever since I've had the car the immobilizer inside the standard key was removed. I assumed this was because it has a Clifford Concept 300 alarm.
I reset the ECU and the codes cleared and they do not come back while cranking.
Any ideas where to start with this one?
Edited by Scoobycity on Saturday 7th February 12:14
As always...back to basics.
Are the relevant parts getting 12v power ? ecu, fuel pump, coils, injectors ?
Is the ecu getting a decent crank signal ? cam signal ?
Have you confirmed an actual spark at the plugs ( all 4 ) and with a timing light etc...that i is at a sensible time ?
Are the injectors triggering ?
Has the timing belt slipped a tooth ? rare..but possible.
Then obvious one about something stupid like a temperature sensor.
Doesnt the Evoscan software and cable hook up to 99 cars ? That would give you some feedback ( must get around to trying this myself )
Are the relevant parts getting 12v power ? ecu, fuel pump, coils, injectors ?
Is the ecu getting a decent crank signal ? cam signal ?
Have you confirmed an actual spark at the plugs ( all 4 ) and with a timing light etc...that i is at a sensible time ?
Are the injectors triggering ?
Has the timing belt slipped a tooth ? rare..but possible.
Then obvious one about something stupid like a temperature sensor.
Doesnt the Evoscan software and cable hook up to 99 cars ? That would give you some feedback ( must get around to trying this myself )
Hi Steve, glad to have your input again.
Are the relevant parts getting 12v power ? ecu, fuel pump, coils, injectors ?
ECU - Its giving me info via ECUexplorer so I assume its at least getting power.
Fuel pump - I can hear it priming but I don't have a pressure tester to check pressure. Is there another way? Like putting the hose in a jar and cranking.
There's no fault codes for the crank and timing sensors but I've disconnected, cleaned and wiggled them anyway. Is there an easy way of testing them?
As for coils, injectors, Plugs, timing belt & temp sensor - Again what are the easiest ways of checking each of these?
Doesnt the Evoscan software and cable hook up to 99 cars ? That would give you some feedback ( must get around to trying this myself )
As I said I'm connected with ecuexplorer which is returning live data from every parameter. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for to check each thing you've mentioned.
Are the relevant parts getting 12v power ? ecu, fuel pump, coils, injectors ?
ECU - Its giving me info via ECUexplorer so I assume its at least getting power.
Fuel pump - I can hear it priming but I don't have a pressure tester to check pressure. Is there another way? Like putting the hose in a jar and cranking.
There's no fault codes for the crank and timing sensors but I've disconnected, cleaned and wiggled them anyway. Is there an easy way of testing them?
As for coils, injectors, Plugs, timing belt & temp sensor - Again what are the easiest ways of checking each of these?
Doesnt the Evoscan software and cable hook up to 99 cars ? That would give you some feedback ( must get around to trying this myself )
As I said I'm connected with ecuexplorer which is returning live data from every parameter. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for to check each thing you've mentioned.
stevieturbo said:
As always...back to basics.
Even more basic: What state are the plugs in? If they're wet with petrol either it's an ignition fault or over-fuelling. If they're dry it's probably lack of fuel that's the problem. For lack of fuel I would then stick an analogue meter or test lamp across an injector and see whether it is being triggered.Scoobycity said:
Hi Steve, glad to have your input again.
Are the relevant parts getting 12v power ? ecu, fuel pump, coils, injectors ?
ECU - Its giving me info via ECUexplorer so I assume its at least getting power.
Fuel pump - I can hear it priming but I don't have a pressure tester to check pressure. Is there another way? Like putting the hose in a jar and cranking.
There's no fault codes for the crank and timing sensors but I've disconnected, cleaned and wiggled them anyway. Is there an easy way of testing them?
As for coils, injectors, Plugs, timing belt & temp sensor - Again what are the easiest ways of checking each of these?
Doesnt the Evoscan software and cable hook up to 99 cars ? That would give you some feedback ( must get around to trying this myself )
As I said I'm connected with ecuexplorer which is returning live data from every parameter. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for to check each thing you've mentioned.
if you have an rpm signal on explorer, then you have a crank signal.Are the relevant parts getting 12v power ? ecu, fuel pump, coils, injectors ?
ECU - Its giving me info via ECUexplorer so I assume its at least getting power.
Fuel pump - I can hear it priming but I don't have a pressure tester to check pressure. Is there another way? Like putting the hose in a jar and cranking.
There's no fault codes for the crank and timing sensors but I've disconnected, cleaned and wiggled them anyway. Is there an easy way of testing them?
As for coils, injectors, Plugs, timing belt & temp sensor - Again what are the easiest ways of checking each of these?
Doesnt the Evoscan software and cable hook up to 99 cars ? That would give you some feedback ( must get around to trying this myself )
As I said I'm connected with ecuexplorer which is returning live data from every parameter. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for to check each thing you've mentioned.
Plugs...simple, remove them, and crank the engine over. Dont forget to ensure the steel section of the plug is touching earth to allow the plug to fire.
Injectors getting a signal....multimeter or similar with pulse width or duty cycle feature.
Temp sensor...what is explorer telling you for a coolant temperature reading ? If it says hot engine ( ie circa 90degC, then cold starting will be very difficult.
As GreenV8 says....check the plugs, are they wet ? If so...I'd say bin them, but others would suggest they can be dried. They can...but sometimes not.
If they are wet, then you could assume it is getting a crank signal, as it needs this in order to know the engine is turning, and hance fire injectors and spark.
if you have an rpm signal on explorer, then you have a crank signal.
Yup I have a signal on ecuexplorer. Its reading 25rpm before trying to start and a peak of 305 after cranking. (It stops logging during cranking so I can only give peak figures) Can this rule out crank sensor?
Plugs...simple, remove them, and crank the engine over. Dont forget to ensure the steel section of the plug is touching earth to allow the plug to fire.
I don't have the right tools here to remove the plugs unfortunatly but should be able to get them out tomorrow.
Injectors getting a signal....multimeter or similar with pulse width or duty cycle feature.
I have a basic cheapie multimeter but where would I put the probe? Would sticking it in the plug on top of the injector give me what I needed and what should I see.
Not sure if it helps but I'm showing a reading on "Fuel Injector #1 Duty" of 0.02% before cranking and between 2-5% during
Temp sensor...what is explorer telling you for a coolant temperature reading ? If it says hot engine ( ie circa 90degC, then cold starting will be very difficult.
4 deg C so I assume that can be ruled out.
One thing I have noticed is that "Ignition Timing (degBTDC)" is always reading 10. Is this the cam sensor and if so shouldn't this be constantly changing?
Yup I have a signal on ecuexplorer. Its reading 25rpm before trying to start and a peak of 305 after cranking. (It stops logging during cranking so I can only give peak figures) Can this rule out crank sensor?
Plugs...simple, remove them, and crank the engine over. Dont forget to ensure the steel section of the plug is touching earth to allow the plug to fire.
I don't have the right tools here to remove the plugs unfortunatly but should be able to get them out tomorrow.
Injectors getting a signal....multimeter or similar with pulse width or duty cycle feature.
I have a basic cheapie multimeter but where would I put the probe? Would sticking it in the plug on top of the injector give me what I needed and what should I see.
Not sure if it helps but I'm showing a reading on "Fuel Injector #1 Duty" of 0.02% before cranking and between 2-5% during
Temp sensor...what is explorer telling you for a coolant temperature reading ? If it says hot engine ( ie circa 90degC, then cold starting will be very difficult.
4 deg C so I assume that can be ruled out.
One thing I have noticed is that "Ignition Timing (degBTDC)" is always reading 10. Is this the cam sensor and if so shouldn't this be constantly changing?
Scoobycity said:
if you have an rpm signal on explorer, then you have a crank signal.
Yup I have a signal on ecuexplorer. Its reading 25rpm before trying to start and a peak of 305 after cranking. (It stops logging during cranking so I can only give peak figures) Can this rule out crank sensor?
Plugs...simple, remove them, and crank the engine over. Dont forget to ensure the steel section of the plug is touching earth to allow the plug to fire.
I don't have the right tools here to remove the plugs unfortunatly but should be able to get them out tomorrow.
Injectors getting a signal....multimeter or similar with pulse width or duty cycle feature.
I have a basic cheapie multimeter but where would I put the probe? Would sticking it in the plug on top of the injector give me what I needed and what should I see.
Not sure if it helps but I'm showing a reading on "Fuel Injector #1 Duty" of 0.02% before cranking and between 2-5% during
Temp sensor...what is explorer telling you for a coolant temperature reading ? If it says hot engine ( ie circa 90degC, then cold starting will be very difficult.
4 deg C so I assume that can be ruled out.
One thing I have noticed is that "Ignition Timing (degBTDC)" is always reading 10. Is this the cam sensor and if so shouldn't this be constantly changing?
300rpm would be a good cranking speed.Yup I have a signal on ecuexplorer. Its reading 25rpm before trying to start and a peak of 305 after cranking. (It stops logging during cranking so I can only give peak figures) Can this rule out crank sensor?
Plugs...simple, remove them, and crank the engine over. Dont forget to ensure the steel section of the plug is touching earth to allow the plug to fire.
I don't have the right tools here to remove the plugs unfortunatly but should be able to get them out tomorrow.
Injectors getting a signal....multimeter or similar with pulse width or duty cycle feature.
I have a basic cheapie multimeter but where would I put the probe? Would sticking it in the plug on top of the injector give me what I needed and what should I see.
Not sure if it helps but I'm showing a reading on "Fuel Injector #1 Duty" of 0.02% before cranking and between 2-5% during
Temp sensor...what is explorer telling you for a coolant temperature reading ? If it says hot engine ( ie circa 90degC, then cold starting will be very difficult.
4 deg C so I assume that can be ruled out.
One thing I have noticed is that "Ignition Timing (degBTDC)" is always reading 10. Is this the cam sensor and if so shouldn't this be constantly changing?
You dont need to remove the plugs to check spark....just stick any plug in the end of the lead, or remove the coil and stick a plug in it. 99/00 coil pack and leads ?
Then wind the engine over.
Duty Cycle sounds ok....in as much as the ecu seems to be telling the injector what to do ok. It would be nice to confirm this at the injector, but chances are it is fine.
Not sure how to check with a basic multimeter.
Temeprature sounds good.
Ign timing....sometimes a default setting is used during cranking, so 10deg is possible.
Im also sure that if the engine isnt getting a cam signal, it wont start either. But aside from that, Ive never used explorer or similar, so cant help more there.
Have you asked over on 22B ? Some of the guys more familiar with the standard ecu's, could perhaps help more
Cheers Steve, I've just posted up there aswell.
Although I've had the battery on charge constantly since this first happened and the charger says its fully charged the cranking speed seems be getting slower and its stops turning at all after 2 or 3 turns now. I'm now thinking its something more serious like cambelt slipped and this bogging down is the valves hitting.
Is there an easy way to check this without pulling it apart? I've taken off the n/s camcover and the belt is at least still there and seems tight.
Although I've had the battery on charge constantly since this first happened and the charger says its fully charged the cranking speed seems be getting slower and its stops turning at all after 2 or 3 turns now. I'm now thinking its something more serious like cambelt slipped and this bogging down is the valves hitting.
Is there an easy way to check this without pulling it apart? I've taken off the n/s camcover and the belt is at least still there and seems tight.
Unlikely.
You really need the plugs out before going any further. My money's currently on an ignition amplifier or possibly the air bypass valve (as alluded to in your initial post). I don't know the Scooby stuff as it rarely goes wrong, but if you have a seperate valve for air bypass then crimping the hose off can ascertain whether it's working or not, or even looking down it and seeing if the valve oscillates.
But we need those plugs out first.
You really need the plugs out before going any further. My money's currently on an ignition amplifier or possibly the air bypass valve (as alluded to in your initial post). I don't know the Scooby stuff as it rarely goes wrong, but if you have a seperate valve for air bypass then crimping the hose off can ascertain whether it's working or not, or even looking down it and seeing if the valve oscillates.
But we need those plugs out first.
Hi guys,
I've still had no joy with this car. Luckily I've had my nice reliable Cerbera to drive about in through all this snow
Finally had a warm'ish dry day today so took another look.
I removed one of the coil packs and put an old plug in and there is definitely a good spark.
I also removed one of the injector plugs and stuck a multimeter in the plug and it was flicking between 00.00 and --.-- while cranking so I assume they're getting some sort of signal?
I'm now pretty sure its unrelated to the alarm as there is no sign of either starter, fuel or spark not working.
I've pulled off the n/side cam cover and the pulley wheels are at least lined up. I'll strip it down more when I get some more dry daylight.
I assume we can rule out the ignition amplifier as there's a spark but wheres this air bypass valve?
Thanks
Danny
I've still had no joy with this car. Luckily I've had my nice reliable Cerbera to drive about in through all this snow
Finally had a warm'ish dry day today so took another look.
I removed one of the coil packs and put an old plug in and there is definitely a good spark.
I also removed one of the injector plugs and stuck a multimeter in the plug and it was flicking between 00.00 and --.-- while cranking so I assume they're getting some sort of signal?
I'm now pretty sure its unrelated to the alarm as there is no sign of either starter, fuel or spark not working.
I've pulled off the n/side cam cover and the pulley wheels are at least lined up. I'll strip it down more when I get some more dry daylight.
I assume we can rule out the ignition amplifier as there's a spark but wheres this air bypass valve?
Thanks
Danny
Edited by Scoobycity on Wednesday 18th February 20:03
Scoobycity said:
Hi guys,
I assume we can rule out the ignition amplifier as there's a spark but wheres this air bypass valve?
Thanks
Danny
Spark...amp is ok.I assume we can rule out the ignition amplifier as there's a spark but wheres this air bypass valve?
Thanks
Danny
Edited by Scoobycity on Wednesday 18th February 20:03
Air bypass = usually indicates some sort if idle valve. On a 99/00 this is a stepper motor, as opposed to a solenoid.
Still no nearer to identifying or checking this Air assisted injector control/air bypass/stepper motor thingamyjig but I'll press on with that over the weekend.
I got a spanner on the crank last night and it seems to turn round smoothly enough. I also took the other side cam cover off and the marks all line up perfectly on all four cam pulleys. Is this enoughf to rule out the belt slipping or should the two dots on the crank pully also be pointing somewhere specific?
At the moment they're about 7 o'clock and 10 o'clock.
I got a spanner on the crank last night and it seems to turn round smoothly enough. I also took the other side cam cover off and the marks all line up perfectly on all four cam pulleys. Is this enoughf to rule out the belt slipping or should the two dots on the crank pully also be pointing somewhere specific?
At the moment they're about 7 o'clock and 10 o'clock.
If all four small lines align up on the cam pulleys, you could assume cam timing is ok.
The crank could be out a tooth or two, but this is highly unlikely. Timing belt setting is set with teh crank at 90deg from TDCC. With the crank sensor out, you can just barely see the little notch marker through the sensor hole when at the correct belt fitting position, to save taking pulley/plastics off to confirm.
Other than that...diagnosing without the car is tricky.
The crank could be out a tooth or two, but this is highly unlikely. Timing belt setting is set with teh crank at 90deg from TDCC. With the crank sensor out, you can just barely see the little notch marker through the sensor hole when at the correct belt fitting position, to save taking pulley/plastics off to confirm.
Other than that...diagnosing without the car is tricky.
Finally found it.
When turning the engine over again with a spanner I noticed the top left cam pully was sticking out slightly. I then realised to my horror that there was no allen bolt holding the sprocket on.
I first thought I must've left this out when I built the engine but I eventually found the bolt laying beneath the car sheared off. It must've dropped out when I pulled the cam cover off that side.
Could this have been anything other over tighning the bolt when fitting?
I'll try and drill out whats left of the bolt and refit the sproket and cam belt and see what we get although I won't hold my breath.
Its not looking good I know but i'm pleased I finally found it. Thanks for everyones help.
When turning the engine over again with a spanner I noticed the top left cam pully was sticking out slightly. I then realised to my horror that there was no allen bolt holding the sprocket on.
I first thought I must've left this out when I built the engine but I eventually found the bolt laying beneath the car sheared off. It must've dropped out when I pulled the cam cover off that side.
Could this have been anything other over tighning the bolt when fitting?
I'll try and drill out whats left of the bolt and refit the sproket and cam belt and see what we get although I won't hold my breath.
Its not looking good I know but i'm pleased I finally found it. Thanks for everyones help.
Those bolts should be renewed when a new belt is fitted. They are known to get very very tight, and hard to remove.
Dont recall seeing any sheared ones...but anything is possible.
In that pic, I cant see the little timing notch through the crank sensor hole. But it might just be the pic.
Is the cam pulley no longer fixed securely to the camshaft ? Has it spun ?
Dont recall seeing any sheared ones...but anything is possible.
In that pic, I cant see the little timing notch through the crank sensor hole. But it might just be the pic.
Is the cam pulley no longer fixed securely to the camshaft ? Has it spun ?
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