Question for Emerld users
Discussion
Just wondered what the latest situation was regarding running the Emerald in closed loop with a wideband lambda?I know a few on here have the Emeralds on their Tivs,and the subject of running one in the above mentioned way has had mixed results in the past.Has anything developed that has altered the situation?I'd like to hear from peeps out there if they are running thiers this way,or if they arent for whatever reasons.I'm about to try mine in closed loop with the AJP engine and am wondering what to expect.Any hints/tips and advice most appreciated.Cheers,Mike
Not got a lot of time to post at the moment so I'll explain more later on but I run mine in full adaptive mode and it is very good indeed providing you have a decent AFR source - I use a Dynojet wideband commander and it has performed flawlessly so far. The only thing you want to watch is the percentage change and idle/zero throttle stuff - if left too large, it can take too much fuel out, and then not be able to get back to the cell to put more back in, resulting in lumpy running. To overcome this, I've just limited the swing to 2% so it adjusts very gradually giving much smoother results. Leave Idle and +/- 500 revs out completely as it doesn't seem to be able to balance it as well as I can 
I think the choice of wideband controller is important. Emerald supplied an Innovate LC1 with my ECU kit. The installation was carried out by V8 Developments. Neither they, nor Emerald were able to get it to operate to their satisfaction. The reading was inaccurate and they felt it was likely to damage the engine. Emerald no longer supplies the Innovate kit.
As a result mine is fitted but not operational.
As a result mine is fitted but not operational.
Uncle Fester said:
I think the choice of wideband controller is important. Emerald supplied an Innovate LC1 with my ECU kit. The installation was carried out by V8 Developments. Neither they, nor Emerald were able to get it to operate to their satisfaction. The reading was inaccurate and they felt it was likely to damage the engine. Emerald no longer supplies the Innovate kit.
As a result mine is fitted but not operational.
same here although about to fit the dynojet one, peed off having fitted two LC1,s for each bankAs a result mine is fitted but not operational.
Interesting replies,thanks.Just why is it that the LC1 doesn't work? I've had one for a couple of years now,and always found it to be accurate,so this problem interests me.Is it a situation where you just cant use the LC1 at all,or does it make using the closed loop just harder,as opposed to impossible? I'd love to know what the problem is here
The AJP Griff said:
Interesting replies,thanks.Just why is it that the LC1 doesn't work? I've had one for a couple of years now,and always found it to be accurate,so this problem interests me.Is it a situation where you just cant use the LC1 at all,or does it make using the closed loop just harder,as opposed to impossible? I'd love to know what the problem is here
I think the results are varied from the LC1, Emerald took one look and didnt even bother to set it up as they were not impressed by them, just look at the Innovate forum and you will see mixed opinions, although mine are installed they are not setup, also maybe the way the LC1 has been installed as they are sensitive to earthing. I think also they need calibrating frequently, ask Nick450 as he has tried one.Been looking at the Dynojet Wideband Commander that nick uses, just been in tact with them a few days ago and they have just released the Wideband 2 new version, which has digital gauges and I/P for extra monitoring and O/P 0-5 Volt AFR for the emerald.
And it gets better !!!! (Cheaper than the Commander)
The Wideband base kit is part no. 15-7003, retail price £209.99 - The digital gauges part no. 15-7020 for white face or 15-7021 for black face, both priced at £49.76.
If anyone else is interested maybe we could do a group buy.
And it gets better !!!! (Cheaper than the Commander)
The Wideband base kit is part no. 15-7003, retail price £209.99 - The digital gauges part no. 15-7020 for white face or 15-7021 for black face, both priced at £49.76.
If anyone else is interested maybe we could do a group buy.
Yes it has the later Bosch 4.2 wideband, they say the sampling is quicker on the new model. To get info goto http://www.dynojetwb2.com/
The only thing I'm waiting for answer is if an extra lead is required for AFR output and the cost.
The only thing I'm waiting for answer is if an extra lead is required for AFR output and the cost.
Yes the WBC2 has just come out and it will be fine for Emerald use. I remember speaking to Dynojet when I bought mine and they said that the basic system is the same as the MK1, with a slightly quicker sensor and different gauges (though I prefered the analogue style one of the original (it is also digital though)). I'm not sure the quicker sensor is required though as I still have to use 3ms smoothing as the Emerald doesn't have time to lock on otherwise, with zero smoothing, the response is too fast to read on the readout! The difference between the 1 and the 2 is the size of the box (smaller with the mk2) and the functions. The MK1 has much more scope for datalogging and control of relays for water injection/nos etc which weren't included in the 2 IIRC. Being that you don't need any of these functions though in our case, the 2 does everything you need for cheaper. I don't use half of the features of the mk1 as the Emerald does it all, but the relay output might be useful one day. Due to the mk2 coming out though, you can pick up the mk1 kits for peanuts (even though they are essentially the same system in a slightly bigger box). Got mine all in for £280 which comes with the sensor, gauge and controller and it outputs a 0-5v signal as accepted by Emerald.
The benefits of the system are that it utilises higher quality circuitry than the LC-1, so no inline resistor is needed to smooth the signal, and it is self calibrating so you will never need to calibrate in free air or any other manor. It appears not to suffer from earth noise either, though I have wired mine direct to the -ive battery terminal to be sure. I have checked several times, and the analogue readout in the Emerald software tallys up EXACTLY with the digital readout given when plugged directly into the WBC box, which is again mirrored exactly by the gauge. So no need for voltage offsets or excessive signal smoothing as with the LC-1. All in all a great bit of kit, and I found them cheapest from a company called Carbon Can (google it) who run them on drag cars and the like. Both they and TVR Power said they had never seen a kit put a foot wrong (TVR Power have installed around 10 kits to SC and n/a cars before).
Regarding the LC-1, when I originally put together the Emerald group buy, Emerald themselves specified the LC-1 specifically as being the best kit for the money and as such provided specific LC-1 instructions in their manual. Shortly after, they changed tune when they realised that the kits weren't quite as good as they had hoped which I was slightly peeved by but it couldn't really be avoided. It really was a well regarded bit of kit when it came out so no one is really to blame. Suffice to say, Emerald won't reccomend or sell the kit any more. I went through an original and a replacement, neither of which worked or stayed in tune despite numerous calibrations, earth tests and head scratching. With the Dynojet unit I have had no problems and therefore trust it far more with the safeguarding of my engine.
I have tested my WBC against a gas analyser and it came out about 0.1 AFR different to a £3000 exhaust tip mounted unit used on the dyno at Austec. The difference could just be due to the difference in distance from the engine with each unit so I'm happy that it's accurate. I'm getting a bit of an ear for it now, so I can pretty much tell what AFR it's running at by the sound of the engine and can relate that to the gauge to check if it's giving a reasonable reading. I will be checking it periodically though and will report if I find a fault. Going in its track record though, it is unlikely to happen.
Having said all of that though, you may be lucky and get an LC-1 that works. I know that Pete (GreenV8S) has a reliable one, as do a few others but having had bad experience with them, I don't now trust them enough to run full adaptive hence the replacement.
To be sure that adaptive works though, I have kept the standard dyno map in open loop on one map setting so I can always check back to that if I think I or the system has made a bad change. I tend to allow the system to make up to a 2% change in all areas apart from idle then drive it for a while to see if I feel it has improved things. If so, I'll compare it to the original open loop map by flicking the switch periodically between maps on a drive, then update the change into the fuel map on the adaptive map. The process then begins again and it can make a further 2% change and so on. I've got two of these adaptive maps running, one with fuel cut, the other without (lots of pops and crackles) and now I've got the idle and settings where I want them, its a really smooth car to drive and is returning some impressive mileage - often up to 300 miles from a tank which would never have happened before! I've also managed to lean the idle and most cruising out to around 15 AFR, and have a red light on my AFR gauge that comes on at 15AFR to alert me to the fact - useful for telling me that I'm getting good mpg on the motorway!
Anyway this has turned into a bit of a ramble, but if you have any questions about the system or want to see a copy of my map for reference then feel free to ask and I'll do my best to help out
The benefits of the system are that it utilises higher quality circuitry than the LC-1, so no inline resistor is needed to smooth the signal, and it is self calibrating so you will never need to calibrate in free air or any other manor. It appears not to suffer from earth noise either, though I have wired mine direct to the -ive battery terminal to be sure. I have checked several times, and the analogue readout in the Emerald software tallys up EXACTLY with the digital readout given when plugged directly into the WBC box, which is again mirrored exactly by the gauge. So no need for voltage offsets or excessive signal smoothing as with the LC-1. All in all a great bit of kit, and I found them cheapest from a company called Carbon Can (google it) who run them on drag cars and the like. Both they and TVR Power said they had never seen a kit put a foot wrong (TVR Power have installed around 10 kits to SC and n/a cars before).
Regarding the LC-1, when I originally put together the Emerald group buy, Emerald themselves specified the LC-1 specifically as being the best kit for the money and as such provided specific LC-1 instructions in their manual. Shortly after, they changed tune when they realised that the kits weren't quite as good as they had hoped which I was slightly peeved by but it couldn't really be avoided. It really was a well regarded bit of kit when it came out so no one is really to blame. Suffice to say, Emerald won't reccomend or sell the kit any more. I went through an original and a replacement, neither of which worked or stayed in tune despite numerous calibrations, earth tests and head scratching. With the Dynojet unit I have had no problems and therefore trust it far more with the safeguarding of my engine.
I have tested my WBC against a gas analyser and it came out about 0.1 AFR different to a £3000 exhaust tip mounted unit used on the dyno at Austec. The difference could just be due to the difference in distance from the engine with each unit so I'm happy that it's accurate. I'm getting a bit of an ear for it now, so I can pretty much tell what AFR it's running at by the sound of the engine and can relate that to the gauge to check if it's giving a reasonable reading. I will be checking it periodically though and will report if I find a fault. Going in its track record though, it is unlikely to happen.
Having said all of that though, you may be lucky and get an LC-1 that works. I know that Pete (GreenV8S) has a reliable one, as do a few others but having had bad experience with them, I don't now trust them enough to run full adaptive hence the replacement.
To be sure that adaptive works though, I have kept the standard dyno map in open loop on one map setting so I can always check back to that if I think I or the system has made a bad change. I tend to allow the system to make up to a 2% change in all areas apart from idle then drive it for a while to see if I feel it has improved things. If so, I'll compare it to the original open loop map by flicking the switch periodically between maps on a drive, then update the change into the fuel map on the adaptive map. The process then begins again and it can make a further 2% change and so on. I've got two of these adaptive maps running, one with fuel cut, the other without (lots of pops and crackles) and now I've got the idle and settings where I want them, its a really smooth car to drive and is returning some impressive mileage - often up to 300 miles from a tank which would never have happened before! I've also managed to lean the idle and most cruising out to around 15 AFR, and have a red light on my AFR gauge that comes on at 15AFR to alert me to the fact - useful for telling me that I'm getting good mpg on the motorway!
Anyway this has turned into a bit of a ramble, but if you have any questions about the system or want to see a copy of my map for reference then feel free to ask and I'll do my best to help out
Edited by 450Nick on Friday 27th March 17:51
The dynojet stuff looks very good. I've been using an LC-1 for a couple of years without any real problems, except for one sensor that consistently gave results that were wrong by about 2AFR for no obvious reason. They do seem to have very mixed results but I'm planning to keep using mine as long as it works OK.
Well explained Nick,, i have gone for the MK1 model as its proven, The issue of water injection could be useful as the last supercharged car I had had this more for protection.
someday we should have an Emerald meet are you going to the big meet next month at chatsworth ?
ps I need to see a copy of the settings for the EGT setup
someday we should have an Emerald meet are you going to the big meet next month at chatsworth ?
ps I need to see a copy of the settings for the EGT setup
Edited by hiltonig on Saturday 28th March 09:47
Edited by hiltonig on Saturday 28th March 10:26
GreenV8S said:
The dynojet stuff looks very good. I've been using an LC-1 for a couple of years without any real problems, except for one sensor that consistently gave results that were wrong by about 2AFR for no obvious reason. They do seem to have very mixed results but I'm planning to keep using mine as long as it works OK.
Ditto , my LC-1 works well no problems since its install( touches woodlike head), I have said this before, when I went to Emerald to have it mapped and they could seem to get it working ok until they got there ecu builder out in the workshop and he chaged what output it was on and hey bingo it worked...They thought this may be possibly be the reason why they had problems in the past,I dunnoBB
LC1=POS, tried 2 which packed in within hours. They then said they have addressed a problem with the outputs frying themselves so I tried a third on another car, that lasted a couple of days. The warranty replacement was dead out of the box. Utter utter s
te. Even when they worked briefly they were inaccurate and slow to respond and the radio interference from the last couple was horrendous.
Techedge is the way to go in my opinion having tried both extensively. Can't comment of the others never having tried them.
te. Even when they worked briefly they were inaccurate and slow to respond and the radio interference from the last couple was horrendous.Techedge is the way to go in my opinion having tried both extensively. Can't comment of the others never having tried them.
I'm thinking about changing to a Dynojet WideBand 2 to use with my Emerald K3 ECU. Can anyone describe how you hook the two together?
Reading the install PDF, it looks as though the Violet '5v Data Aquisition output' wire would be the one to feed the Emerald with it's Wideband signal. Is that right?
It's also got the option to connect via the CAN bus link which is another alternative I suppose; the Emerald K3 has CAN capability. I'm currently using this to hook the Emerald up to an AIM MXL dash display but I suppose there's no reason I couldn't daisy-chain off that.
I was also wondering how useful the little dynojet touchscreen display would be for setting everything up. It could be useful to compare the dynojet values with the Emerald ones without switching a laptop between the two. Connecting a laptop to the Emerald means you have to disconnect its CAN link in any case. Anyone tried one of these little displays?
Reading the install PDF, it looks as though the Violet '5v Data Aquisition output' wire would be the one to feed the Emerald with it's Wideband signal. Is that right?
It's also got the option to connect via the CAN bus link which is another alternative I suppose; the Emerald K3 has CAN capability. I'm currently using this to hook the Emerald up to an AIM MXL dash display but I suppose there's no reason I couldn't daisy-chain off that.
I was also wondering how useful the little dynojet touchscreen display would be for setting everything up. It could be useful to compare the dynojet values with the Emerald ones without switching a laptop between the two. Connecting a laptop to the Emerald means you have to disconnect its CAN link in any case. Anyone tried one of these little displays?
You just connect the analogue output from the WBC (data acquisition wire) to an Emerald aux in port, set that port as the lambda feed in the settings menu, then update the conversion table with 5 values from the values table available from Dynojet here: http://dynojet.co.uk/wideband/downloads/dataacq.xl...
Any problems, post them up or pm me!
Any problems, post them up or pm me!
450Nick said:
You just connect the analogue output from the WBC (data acquisition wire) to an Emerald aux in port, set that port as the lambda feed in the settings menu, then update the conversion table with 5 values from the values table available from Dynojet here: http://dynojet.co.uk/wideband/downloads/dataacq.xl...
Any problems, post them up or pm me!
Hi Nick you if your free tomorrow (saturday could you give me a ring) thanks leigh.Any problems, post them up or pm me!
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