Head gasket? Only firing on 3 cylinders (1.25 Zetec)
Discussion
Hello.
Im 19, on my second car and second engine and gearbox in my beloved mk4 fiesta lx.
During the heatwave week, a few weeks ago now. I was on my home from work in london stuck in traffic. My temperature gauge was rising and hanging around 3/4 hot. I put the heating on full and kept the revs low etc and it hang at 3/4 till i got home. I went to the shops later that evening and on the way home, ive glanced at the temp gauge and its in the red, and rising. I was only a corner from home so got there, popped the bonnet, to find there was no water in the tank.
Ive left it over night, and proceeded to fill her up with a 50/50 antifreeze/water mix (as recomended by the guy who fitted the engine, who runs a small garage but has years of experience building and racing ford engines)It took 5l odd, so that tells me it dumped the whole lot? Surely not possible through a pressure release valve? I got all the airlocks out and tried looking for any signs of any leaks... nothing. Pressure building up in all the pipes (including heating pipework once turned the heater on...) and no signs of leaks from anywhere.
Spoke to a few friends and they agreed my worst fear; headgasket. I took it to a different local garage who carried out a 'head gasket test' with a Snap-on piece of wizardry testing for combustion gases in the coolant gas. He said there were early signs of headgasket failure, a tiny amount of combustion gas present.
Ok, fine, so ive booked it in with the fella who fitted my engine, as he did a good job with it and was reasonably priced. Ive recieved a phonecall at 12 the day after i dropped it too him, saying there's nothing wrong with this vehicle, why do i think i need a headgasket? So i've explained, and and he's proceeded to tell me he's done Co tests, compression tests, had the system under pressure for ages, road tested it etc, and they cant see anything wrong with it, and therefore dont want to charge me 350 for a new headgasket, but i owe them 65 for the tests they've done. Ok great, but where's my 5l of water gone? He had no answer.
Ive carried on driving the car, albeit not very enthusiasticly, until today. Driving along at normal speeds. I think i was in 3rd, doing around 25, and ive applied the throttle slightly and noticed a drop in power, and a strange V8 burble from the exhaust and vibration from the engine. Straight away ive thought its only running on 3 cylinders. Ive got home and had a look, starting with pulling off the HT leads in turn to try and find the cylinder. Ive removed the 1st HT lead (first from the left, looking from the front of the car), turned it over and it was idleing extreamly bumpy, so ive ruled out that cylinder and re-attached the lead. ive done the same with the 2nd lead, and the idle was exactly the same as before id touched it. Therefore telling me that hopefully that spark plug has just died. ive headed to my local car parts place. and got myself 4 new shiny plugs, whacked em in, And no change.. So ive replaced the HT leads. Still the same. Next on the list is coil pack, but i dont want to be chucking a 50 quid coil pack on it, ontop of the plugs n leads. So ive sent it back to my engine man to be looked at.
Whilst speaking to him on the phone today, he said he'll do a compression test. But im sure he said he'd done that before (all the invoice says is 'investigate possible headgasket failue') When i asked him what he thought, he said either my headgasket has finaly gonne ( should he have not noticed it was going after his numerous tests?) or a valve could have gone... Gone in which way? bent or broken or..? He agreed it could be a clogged or dead injector, but i was just wondering if you guys had any ideas?
Also, should he have done a cylinder compression test during the headgasket investigation?
Any comments or suggestions welcomed.
Thanks, Josh.
Im 19, on my second car and second engine and gearbox in my beloved mk4 fiesta lx.
During the heatwave week, a few weeks ago now. I was on my home from work in london stuck in traffic. My temperature gauge was rising and hanging around 3/4 hot. I put the heating on full and kept the revs low etc and it hang at 3/4 till i got home. I went to the shops later that evening and on the way home, ive glanced at the temp gauge and its in the red, and rising. I was only a corner from home so got there, popped the bonnet, to find there was no water in the tank.
Ive left it over night, and proceeded to fill her up with a 50/50 antifreeze/water mix (as recomended by the guy who fitted the engine, who runs a small garage but has years of experience building and racing ford engines)It took 5l odd, so that tells me it dumped the whole lot? Surely not possible through a pressure release valve? I got all the airlocks out and tried looking for any signs of any leaks... nothing. Pressure building up in all the pipes (including heating pipework once turned the heater on...) and no signs of leaks from anywhere.
Spoke to a few friends and they agreed my worst fear; headgasket. I took it to a different local garage who carried out a 'head gasket test' with a Snap-on piece of wizardry testing for combustion gases in the coolant gas. He said there were early signs of headgasket failure, a tiny amount of combustion gas present.
Ok, fine, so ive booked it in with the fella who fitted my engine, as he did a good job with it and was reasonably priced. Ive recieved a phonecall at 12 the day after i dropped it too him, saying there's nothing wrong with this vehicle, why do i think i need a headgasket? So i've explained, and and he's proceeded to tell me he's done Co tests, compression tests, had the system under pressure for ages, road tested it etc, and they cant see anything wrong with it, and therefore dont want to charge me 350 for a new headgasket, but i owe them 65 for the tests they've done. Ok great, but where's my 5l of water gone? He had no answer.
Ive carried on driving the car, albeit not very enthusiasticly, until today. Driving along at normal speeds. I think i was in 3rd, doing around 25, and ive applied the throttle slightly and noticed a drop in power, and a strange V8 burble from the exhaust and vibration from the engine. Straight away ive thought its only running on 3 cylinders. Ive got home and had a look, starting with pulling off the HT leads in turn to try and find the cylinder. Ive removed the 1st HT lead (first from the left, looking from the front of the car), turned it over and it was idleing extreamly bumpy, so ive ruled out that cylinder and re-attached the lead. ive done the same with the 2nd lead, and the idle was exactly the same as before id touched it. Therefore telling me that hopefully that spark plug has just died. ive headed to my local car parts place. and got myself 4 new shiny plugs, whacked em in, And no change.. So ive replaced the HT leads. Still the same. Next on the list is coil pack, but i dont want to be chucking a 50 quid coil pack on it, ontop of the plugs n leads. So ive sent it back to my engine man to be looked at.
Whilst speaking to him on the phone today, he said he'll do a compression test. But im sure he said he'd done that before (all the invoice says is 'investigate possible headgasket failue') When i asked him what he thought, he said either my headgasket has finaly gonne ( should he have not noticed it was going after his numerous tests?) or a valve could have gone... Gone in which way? bent or broken or..? He agreed it could be a clogged or dead injector, but i was just wondering if you guys had any ideas?
Also, should he have done a cylinder compression test during the headgasket investigation?
Any comments or suggestions welcomed.
Thanks, Josh.
Engines with good cooling systems don't overheat whether you're in a heatwave and stuck in traffic or not. The fact that it did tells you you had a problem either with lack of coolant or a fault in the cooling system. The sensible thing to do is then immediately STOP RUNNING IT and check the coolant level!!
You don't say how long the engine has been fitted for and working ok or how long it had been since you checked the coolant level. Maybe it had never been right since it was fitted. The fact that it had apparently almost no coolant in it maybe says you hadn't checked it for ages or it chucked it all out when it overheated. It was a bit bloody silly driving it again after it had overheated without checking the coolant first.
Two things need to be done.
1) A compression test certainly and you might as well buy yourself a compression tester. It'll be cheaper than paying someone to do it for you so you end up with a free compression tester. Instructions for use are on my website. http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/comp.htm
2) A coolant system pressure test. Basically an adaptor is screwed onto the expansion bottle or fitted into a coolant hose and the system is pressurised with a pump to see if it leaks anywhere either externally or internally. You could also make your own from an old expansion cap, a tyre valve, some glue and a footpump or just buy one.
If you ran it for a long time without coolant and seriously overheated it then this may have blown the headgasket, and probably warped the head which will then need straightening or at least skimming, rather than a pre-existing headgasket fault having actually caused the overheating. You'll probably now never know which.
DO NOT just get the headgasket changed without having the head checked too or you'll just end up back at square one!!!
In future check the coolant level more often.
If the head is badly warped you can straighten most of the bend out of it before it gets skimmed by stripping it down, popping it in the oven at 200C and leaving it for a couple of hours then cooling slowly. Skimming a very badly warped head doesn't fix the bent cam journals and other stuff - just the head gasket face, so you always get the worst of the bend out first before skimming.
You don't say how long the engine has been fitted for and working ok or how long it had been since you checked the coolant level. Maybe it had never been right since it was fitted. The fact that it had apparently almost no coolant in it maybe says you hadn't checked it for ages or it chucked it all out when it overheated. It was a bit bloody silly driving it again after it had overheated without checking the coolant first.
Two things need to be done.
1) A compression test certainly and you might as well buy yourself a compression tester. It'll be cheaper than paying someone to do it for you so you end up with a free compression tester. Instructions for use are on my website. http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/comp.htm
2) A coolant system pressure test. Basically an adaptor is screwed onto the expansion bottle or fitted into a coolant hose and the system is pressurised with a pump to see if it leaks anywhere either externally or internally. You could also make your own from an old expansion cap, a tyre valve, some glue and a footpump or just buy one.
If you ran it for a long time without coolant and seriously overheated it then this may have blown the headgasket, and probably warped the head which will then need straightening or at least skimming, rather than a pre-existing headgasket fault having actually caused the overheating. You'll probably now never know which.
DO NOT just get the headgasket changed without having the head checked too or you'll just end up back at square one!!!
In future check the coolant level more often.
If the head is badly warped you can straighten most of the bend out of it before it gets skimmed by stripping it down, popping it in the oven at 200C and leaving it for a couple of hours then cooling slowly. Skimming a very badly warped head doesn't fix the bent cam journals and other stuff - just the head gasket face, so you always get the worst of the bend out first before skimming.
Welcome to PH Josh.
I don't think many 19 year olds would have had the presence of mind to turn on the cabin heater (never mind pulling the HT leads to check which was misfiring). If my engine temp crept up rather than shooting off the scale, I'd do that as well. I wonder if the header tank pressure cap has gone iffy, allowing the coolant to boil and airlock, making the situation worse. Coil packs certainly do fail on these engines, and it may be that the overheating has caused it to fail.
I think we need to wait for the results of the compression test and/or hydrocarbon in coolant sniffer. Any sign of mayonnaise in the oil or coolant?
I don't think many 19 year olds would have had the presence of mind to turn on the cabin heater (never mind pulling the HT leads to check which was misfiring). If my engine temp crept up rather than shooting off the scale, I'd do that as well. I wonder if the header tank pressure cap has gone iffy, allowing the coolant to boil and airlock, making the situation worse. Coil packs certainly do fail on these engines, and it may be that the overheating has caused it to fail.
I think we need to wait for the results of the compression test and/or hydrocarbon in coolant sniffer. Any sign of mayonnaise in the oil or coolant?
Thanks for the helpful replies. I did forget to mention that id checked, and topped up the water two days before. After the engine was fitted i had a problem with the standard hose clamps being too weak on certain hoses, so i reinforced the leaking ones with jubilee clips, but i like to keep an eye on the water and the rest of the hose's.
The engine has been in around a year now and ive had no trouble except the gearbox (me learning the need to rev match the hard way), clogged idle control valve and a dead crankcase breather hose. The engine had 46k when it went in, roughly 55k now.
I would be getting the head skimmed etc, definately. I understand the full extent of what the damage could be, and its exactly why i sent it to a garage for a head gasket, and they told me it was fine.
They did a coolant system pressure check, with the car on and off before the most recent problem, and said it was fine...
The engine has been in around a year now and ive had no trouble except the gearbox (me learning the need to rev match the hard way), clogged idle control valve and a dead crankcase breather hose. The engine had 46k when it went in, roughly 55k now.
I would be getting the head skimmed etc, definately. I understand the full extent of what the damage could be, and its exactly why i sent it to a garage for a head gasket, and they told me it was fine.
They did a coolant system pressure check, with the car on and off before the most recent problem, and said it was fine...
Glad you got it sorted and the overheating hasn't done any further damage. However, I still suggest every home mechanic needs a compression tester in their toolbox.
I always recommend people take a set of baseline readings on their car even, or in fact especially, when there's no problem manifesting so they have something to compare against when things do go wrong. It's a lot easier than trying to guess if a low reading on one cylinder, or indeed all of them, is something new or has always been there and is nothing to do with the current problem.
For competition cars a test should be done immediately after every event. It's the best early warning system for things starting to go wrong inside while you still have time to fix it before the next event.
Finally anyone about to take their car for a rolling road setup should do a compression test without even thinking twice about it. I've seen so many people waste their money on fuel and ignition mapping while the operator tries to find out why the power is not what the owner was expecting when in fact the bottom end was on the way out and they could have discovered this before even going there. It's pretty pointless trying to map a buggered engine.
A couple of years ago I was up in Aberdeen at a well known set of rollers working away on my own stuff but watching someone setting up a race Crossflow as I passed by every now and then. After a couple of hours getting the basic fuel and ignition settings something like right the power was still well down on what everyone present was hoping for. "Do a compression test" I muttered on the way past one time. "Nah, it'll be fine" said the bloke and carried on tinkering with the settings in the vain hope that further tiny adjustments to fuel or ignition would find the missing 20 bhp. I shrugged my shoulders and carried on with my own work.
Another hour later I repeated my advice but again it fell on deaf ears. Finally the beast ran out of petrol because the owner had only put a couple of gallons in the tank and had no idea how much fuel a rolling road setup uses. While he and his mates were off down the road getting a can filled at the petrol station I finally persuaded the operator to do a comp test. 200, 200, 180, 160. The session ended there, no doubt to the great benefit of the owner's pocket but he could have saved all of it by doing his own test beforehand and getting the engine rebuilt immediately rather than squandering money first on tuning a tired old dog.
I always recommend people take a set of baseline readings on their car even, or in fact especially, when there's no problem manifesting so they have something to compare against when things do go wrong. It's a lot easier than trying to guess if a low reading on one cylinder, or indeed all of them, is something new or has always been there and is nothing to do with the current problem.
For competition cars a test should be done immediately after every event. It's the best early warning system for things starting to go wrong inside while you still have time to fix it before the next event.
Finally anyone about to take their car for a rolling road setup should do a compression test without even thinking twice about it. I've seen so many people waste their money on fuel and ignition mapping while the operator tries to find out why the power is not what the owner was expecting when in fact the bottom end was on the way out and they could have discovered this before even going there. It's pretty pointless trying to map a buggered engine.
A couple of years ago I was up in Aberdeen at a well known set of rollers working away on my own stuff but watching someone setting up a race Crossflow as I passed by every now and then. After a couple of hours getting the basic fuel and ignition settings something like right the power was still well down on what everyone present was hoping for. "Do a compression test" I muttered on the way past one time. "Nah, it'll be fine" said the bloke and carried on tinkering with the settings in the vain hope that further tiny adjustments to fuel or ignition would find the missing 20 bhp. I shrugged my shoulders and carried on with my own work.
Another hour later I repeated my advice but again it fell on deaf ears. Finally the beast ran out of petrol because the owner had only put a couple of gallons in the tank and had no idea how much fuel a rolling road setup uses. While he and his mates were off down the road getting a can filled at the petrol station I finally persuaded the operator to do a comp test. 200, 200, 180, 160. The session ended there, no doubt to the great benefit of the owner's pocket but he could have saved all of it by doing his own test beforehand and getting the engine rebuilt immediately rather than squandering money first on tuning a tired old dog.
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