Bosch 044 as lifter pump
Discussion
What are the down side of using a high pressure pump as a lifter pump into a swirl pot... Im using a very large high pressure pump and am considering adding in a swirl pot with an in tank pump... I know a high pressure pump will flow more if its running free flow but have no idea how much and if it will be reliable etc?
any views?
any views?
It will work of course, but why you would want to use an expensive high pressure pump as a lift pump escapes me??
As the lift pump does not have to work against any significant head, just about any pump will work, std oem in-tank pumps for example may only do say 200l/hr into 3 or 4 bar, but will do double that into 0.25 bar !!
Also, generally the lift pump should have some form of screening on the entry, which would have to be added seperately for an 044.
Also an 044 without any head will be generating a lot of fuel heating, noise and using a lot of current for no useful work, so all in all, it's not recommended really!
As the lift pump does not have to work against any significant head, just about any pump will work, std oem in-tank pumps for example may only do say 200l/hr into 3 or 4 bar, but will do double that into 0.25 bar !!
Also, generally the lift pump should have some form of screening on the entry, which would have to be added seperately for an 044.
Also an 044 without any head will be generating a lot of fuel heating, noise and using a lot of current for no useful work, so all in all, it's not recommended really!
Main reason is I actually already have a number of high pressure pumps and would need to buy a low pressure one... will a stock ford cosworth one flow enough rather than using the 044, I have a brand new one on the shelf or i could use the original Noble.
Approx how much more will they flow without any pressure than with say 3bar? is it double?
Approx how much more will they flow without any pressure than with say 3bar? is it double?
I'm with Mr Torque on this one. I certainly wouldn't recommend the pump as a lift pump.
The 044 doesn't like to pull, its more of a push pump, and so unless the pump was mounted within the fuel tank, it will cause heat build up.
Why not use a Facet pump? Or you can buy a cheap in tank pump that will do the same job. I know you have them on the shelf, but surely all you will be doing is just filling up the swirl pot for it then to vent straight back to the tank again?
The 044 doesn't like to pull, its more of a push pump, and so unless the pump was mounted within the fuel tank, it will cause heat build up.
Why not use a Facet pump? Or you can buy a cheap in tank pump that will do the same job. I know you have them on the shelf, but surely all you will be doing is just filling up the swirl pot for it then to vent straight back to the tank again?
Am I not right that the 044 and other bosch ones are designed to run in tank?... i'm intending to put the lifter pump in the tank.
I've forgotten to mention that an 044 alone will not flow enough fuel for my engine hence I have had to upgrade from it to a larger pump and why i'm thinking it may be man enough as a lifter?
I've forgotten to mention that an 044 alone will not flow enough fuel for my engine hence I have had to upgrade from it to a larger pump and why i'm thinking it may be man enough as a lifter?
Typically you'd see a 50% increase in massflow at a low pressure head when compared to a 3bar head.
Here's some data from a Bosch pump i characterised:
Remember also that for most cars the lift pump does not need to "keep up" with the main pump (assuming you return the fuel overspill line from the PRV back to the swirl pot) as you only actually use peak fuel flow for a very short period of time, and the "mean" fuel flow is much smaller, which can be delt with by the swirl pot volume. (extreme race cars (ovals etc) this is not the case, but most cars, inc most race cars it is)
I should have thought that the original noble pump would be fine as the lift pump, which makes just adding a remote swirl pot a cinch, as you can leave the entire tank as std !!
It is however a sensible idea to design your swirl pot return with a slight restriction, something like 0.5bar in the swirl pot really helps the main pump prime and maximised it's efficiency (reduces cavitation etc)
Here's some data from a Bosch pump i characterised:
Remember also that for most cars the lift pump does not need to "keep up" with the main pump (assuming you return the fuel overspill line from the PRV back to the swirl pot) as you only actually use peak fuel flow for a very short period of time, and the "mean" fuel flow is much smaller, which can be delt with by the swirl pot volume. (extreme race cars (ovals etc) this is not the case, but most cars, inc most race cars it is)
I should have thought that the original noble pump would be fine as the lift pump, which makes just adding a remote swirl pot a cinch, as you can leave the entire tank as std !!
It is however a sensible idea to design your swirl pot return with a slight restriction, something like 0.5bar in the swirl pot really helps the main pump prime and maximised it's efficiency (reduces cavitation etc)
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 5th November 17:39
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 5th November 17:40
044 will be perfectly fine in tank. The last few Ive seen have already had a small gauze built in to the intake anyway, so thats covered.
But it absolutely must be gravity fed and mounted below the level of fuel in the tank/car. Never have an efi pump suck fuel.
But a Walbro at a fraction of the price would also work just fine as a lift pump.
But it absolutely must be gravity fed and mounted below the level of fuel in the tank/car. Never have an efi pump suck fuel.
But a Walbro at a fraction of the price would also work just fine as a lift pump.
Just to give you an idea of were my head is at, let me explain the standard Noble M12 setup....
The Noble basically usually runs a bosch unit externally (similar spec to the sierra cossie pump) and just has a pipe sticking out the bottom of the tank around 1inch from the bottom.... this pipe extends to the centre of the tank internally and rests on the bottom of the tank.
as std it then has a 1meter run of -10 fuel line and into the filter which is actually only 10mm from the tank but the other side to the exit!!! and then into the fuel pump.. they then top it off with wire only man enough for a 200bhp pump (std is 350bhp!!!)
Its basically terrible design and means they issued a genuine letter disclaimer saying that anyone running their car below third tank of fuel would not be covered by manufacturer guarentee!!!!
What I did was move the outlet to the other side of the tank and had 2inches into the fuel filter and then into the bosch 044 used the existing wire to switch a relay and ran new possitive and earth to the relay and thus pump.... this works perfectly but still means I have to maintain third of tank of fuel to be safe...
Im going motec now so will have safety in it as going to monitor fuel temp and pressure... however Im considering doing it right and slapping one of the 3 bosch units I have lying around (044 included)...
Trouble is if I do as a swirl pot I do not want to return the A1000 fuel back to the pot but rather the tank so that I can avoid heating the fuel which the noble is prone to being a mid engine car and the shear amount of fuel that will be moving on mild throttle... this means the lifter pump needs to be able to flow at least twice as much fuel as a standard noble.
Now to me this is all theory so im spending a lot of time researching this... i'm really trying to build a totally safe, bullet proof high power motor with belt and braces.
The Noble basically usually runs a bosch unit externally (similar spec to the sierra cossie pump) and just has a pipe sticking out the bottom of the tank around 1inch from the bottom.... this pipe extends to the centre of the tank internally and rests on the bottom of the tank.
as std it then has a 1meter run of -10 fuel line and into the filter which is actually only 10mm from the tank but the other side to the exit!!! and then into the fuel pump.. they then top it off with wire only man enough for a 200bhp pump (std is 350bhp!!!)
Its basically terrible design and means they issued a genuine letter disclaimer saying that anyone running their car below third tank of fuel would not be covered by manufacturer guarentee!!!!
What I did was move the outlet to the other side of the tank and had 2inches into the fuel filter and then into the bosch 044 used the existing wire to switch a relay and ran new possitive and earth to the relay and thus pump.... this works perfectly but still means I have to maintain third of tank of fuel to be safe...
Im going motec now so will have safety in it as going to monitor fuel temp and pressure... however Im considering doing it right and slapping one of the 3 bosch units I have lying around (044 included)...
Trouble is if I do as a swirl pot I do not want to return the A1000 fuel back to the pot but rather the tank so that I can avoid heating the fuel which the noble is prone to being a mid engine car and the shear amount of fuel that will be moving on mild throttle... this means the lifter pump needs to be able to flow at least twice as much fuel as a standard noble.
Now to me this is all theory so im spending a lot of time researching this... i'm really trying to build a totally safe, bullet proof high power motor with belt and braces.
So the main tank actually has a totally crap design which could allow fuel slosh away from the pickup ??
Sounds good.
On that note. Most sensible route would be a Carter/Holley/Federal Moghul low pressure high volume pump. These can be purchased for not a lot of money and in the flow range 100-140gph ( US gallons ) They do make a little noise, but not that bad. No worse than the Aeromotive, just a different type of noise.
This wont mind seeing air now and again. Real Steel and some of the other US V8 type parts suppliers would be able to supply one. Or Summit, Jegs etc.
Use this to feed your swirl tank. For the most part, this should satisfy demand for the A1000 too Although it might do no harm to offer a return tee to both swirl tank, and main tank, just to make sure it is always full.
Sounds good.
On that note. Most sensible route would be a Carter/Holley/Federal Moghul low pressure high volume pump. These can be purchased for not a lot of money and in the flow range 100-140gph ( US gallons ) They do make a little noise, but not that bad. No worse than the Aeromotive, just a different type of noise.
This wont mind seeing air now and again. Real Steel and some of the other US V8 type parts suppliers would be able to supply one. Or Summit, Jegs etc.
Use this to feed your swirl tank. For the most part, this should satisfy demand for the A1000 too Although it might do no harm to offer a return tee to both swirl tank, and main tank, just to make sure it is always full.
With the tank arrangement I think you still need to go the swirl pot route.
Also your concern about fuel heating points to the need for a pump speed controller for both the HP and LP pumps. I have been discussing this on other threads but have so far only found one commercial system which only does 2 speeds rather than the PWM which I would have thought would be fairly easy to achieve with the appropriate electronics skills (sadly lacking in me).
Steve
Also your concern about fuel heating points to the need for a pump speed controller for both the HP and LP pumps. I have been discussing this on other threads but have so far only found one commercial system which only does 2 speeds rather than the PWM which I would have thought would be fairly easy to achieve with the appropriate electronics skills (sadly lacking in me).
Steve
andygtt said:
Trouble is if I do as a swirl pot I do not want to return the A1000 fuel back to the pot but rather the tank so that I can avoid heating the fuel which the noble is prone to being a mid engine car
It won't make any difference to the "fuel upheat" as to where you return it!At part load, >l/min of fuel will be wanging around both "loops" (tank - lift pump - swirl pot - tank, and swirl pot - pressure pump - fuel rail - prv - either tank or swirl pot) so the heat will just get transfered exactly the same (and because of the high velocity due to the high flow, this heat transfer will be pretty good. If you want to avoid up-heat, don't pump lots of fuel around when you don't need to, that is the true answer!!
I wonder if there is a market for my "fuel pump controller"? i might have enough time to comercialise it possibly?
eliot said:
My tank can get quite warm in the summer when its not completely full. I was thinking of feeding the low pressure (return) side of the fuel rail through a ducted oil cooler at the back of the car - but never got round to it or considered the warm fuel to be much of a problem.
But how warm is warm ?When the engine and pumps are running, only the odd time do I see temps over 30degC.
Whilst I do have a cooler in place, it is situated very badly in the car, so suspect it doesnt offer much cooling, and certainly none when stationary.
On a very very hot sunny day at TOTB, with lots of sitting about, and perhaps 1/2 tank of fuel ( 35 litres max ) I did see temps as high as 46degC towards end of the day.
At the start of the day they were around 32degC
As for the Volvo above....fantastic build !!!! But using any efi pump in tank, assumes the tank has adequate fuel baffling inside to prevent surge.
From the OP's post, it seems the main tank design on the Noble is crap.
Not the place for an efi pump at all.
Edited by stevieturbo on Sunday 7th November 10:08
Max_Torque said:
.....I wonder if there is a market for my "fuel pump controller"? i might have enough time to comercialise it possibly?
Yes please.It just seems to me to be the most logical route.
We have to spec a fuel system that will cope with the max HP our engine can produce but we rarely run at that power for long so a way to run the system at a lower, and quiter, rate would be a great help and could possibly be quite easy to achieve.
Steve
The most expensive bit of the pressure control system is the 10bar rated fuel pressure sensor, currently i use a GEMS one, and it's about £120 on it's own. I need to research other cheaper options, i'm sure there will be something availible for a lot less. which would help to bring the costs down.
Max_Torque said:
Also an 044 without any head will be generating a lot of fuel heating, noise and using a lot of current for no useful work, so all in all, it's not recommended really!
No it won't; since it's generating virtually no pressure in this application the current consumption, noise and fuel heating will be quite low. I'd be tempted to run it at a lower voltage for even less noise and longevity though.Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff