To NOS or not to NOS that is the question...
Discussion
Right, further to my thread jack in the BHP thread he's the dilemma....
I love how my car drives it's completely usable at WOT in 1st, 2nd and 3rd albeit with a degree of wheel spin but nothing OTT (unless you want it to be) so the question is how do I add more power without trashing what I have now? Just ask Pah250, JohnM or Paul450 how usable it is and how little lag I have, it's a really nice setup that I'm loathed to alter but I'd some more power...!
The biggest fly in the ointment is that when my engine was on the engine dyno Roger tried turning up the boost and whilst the turbos had more to give it would appear the manifolds just can't flow any more exhaust gases. The plus point is when I specced the engine I asked for it to be capable of supporting a 1,000+ BHP so fingers crossed I'm good to go from that point of view
.
The simple solution is to keep the engine but bolt on a new turbo setup with nice free flowing manifolds and slightly bigger turbos and basically try and replicate what I have now with the potential to turn it up to 11 when the mood strikes.
The other option is to add NOS to what I have to give some mid-range punch to 4th, 5th and 6th where hopefully it'll be within what the manifolds will cope with but still make a sizeable difference to my standing mile speed.
So come on let's hear what you think I should do? I've got a budget of 3k but ideally I'd prefer not to blow all of that as there are some other mods I'd like done too. I'm all too aware that whilst 3k might purchase some new turbos that's about all so I appreciate that idea is out (for now)
I love how my car drives it's completely usable at WOT in 1st, 2nd and 3rd albeit with a degree of wheel spin but nothing OTT (unless you want it to be) so the question is how do I add more power without trashing what I have now? Just ask Pah250, JohnM or Paul450 how usable it is and how little lag I have, it's a really nice setup that I'm loathed to alter but I'd some more power...!
The biggest fly in the ointment is that when my engine was on the engine dyno Roger tried turning up the boost and whilst the turbos had more to give it would appear the manifolds just can't flow any more exhaust gases. The plus point is when I specced the engine I asked for it to be capable of supporting a 1,000+ BHP so fingers crossed I'm good to go from that point of view
.The simple solution is to keep the engine but bolt on a new turbo setup with nice free flowing manifolds and slightly bigger turbos and basically try and replicate what I have now with the potential to turn it up to 11 when the mood strikes.
The other option is to add NOS to what I have to give some mid-range punch to 4th, 5th and 6th where hopefully it'll be within what the manifolds will cope with but still make a sizeable difference to my standing mile speed.
So come on let's hear what you think I should do? I've got a budget of 3k but ideally I'd prefer not to blow all of that as there are some other mods I'd like done too. I'm all too aware that whilst 3k might purchase some new turbos that's about all so I appreciate that idea is out (for now)
That would get you an aftermarket ecu with some bespoke mapping
Give you more Saftey when pushing the engine as well as better traction control, launch control anti lag (this will drastically shorten turbo life) & it will give more power
Water/ meth would give a boost for a fairly low outlay
Nos would work but it puts a lot of strain in an engine & I doubt you want to do another rebuild!!!
Give you more Saftey when pushing the engine as well as better traction control, launch control anti lag (this will drastically shorten turbo life) & it will give more power
Water/ meth would give a boost for a fairly low outlay
Nos would work but it puts a lot of strain in an engine & I doubt you want to do another rebuild!!!
I wouldn't rebuild in a nutshell. I'd just buy a crate engine and run that till it broke. Doing 20k on an engine is a mugs game as a dropped valve will grenade a 5k engine as easily as a 20k one...
As it stands I've had nearly 25k miles out of my rebuilt engine and I'd like another 25k ideally. Hopefully if I do go the NOS route and it's done well I'd like to think adding a 100 - 150 shot should be a relatively safe option...???
As it stands I've had nearly 25k miles out of my rebuilt engine and I'd like another 25k ideally. Hopefully if I do go the NOS route and it's done well I'd like to think adding a 100 - 150 shot should be a relatively safe option...???
H5V VE said:
I dont about the the merits engine wise but you would have to take the boat to France going forward I think.
How often do you travel across?
I won't leave the NOS fitted How often do you travel across?
. I'd just remove the bottle and purge the lines if I ever wanted to visit France and beyond...Let's be very clear the NOS is purely for VMAX not for DD'ing.
EmmaJ said:
I wouldn't rebuild in a nutshell. I'd just buy a crate engine and run that till it broke. Doing 20k on an engine is a mugs game as a dropped valve will grenade a 5k engine as easily as a 20k one...
As it stands I've had nearly 25k miles out of my rebuilt engine and I'd like another 25k ideally. Hopefully if I do go the NOS route and it's done well I'd like to think adding a 100 - 150 shot should be a relatively safe option...???
Piston ring lands could be an issue at thy level you would need to check with the piston supplier what they are specced toAs it stands I've had nearly 25k miles out of my rebuilt engine and I'd like another 25k ideally. Hopefully if I do go the NOS route and it's done well I'd like to think adding a 100 - 150 shot should be a relatively safe option...???
Nos will put no more strain on an engine than any other power modification if its done right. Infact I'm many cases it will be kinder.
If your putting more than 100bho you should use a progressive controller to be gentle to the drivetrain and engine. Ensure the wet setup is managed properly. Either via the nos install or the ecu.
Add water injection for daily running and you will keep the IATs cooler anyway which will net a bit more power in the hotter weather. You then have all you need to have fun. Cooler running on the daily drive and the nos for that extra push when needed.
Why not upgrade the exhaust/headers to cope now and you could wind the turbos up a little more. And then you have a choice in the future to put larger units on if you get totally bored.
If your putting more than 100bho you should use a progressive controller to be gentle to the drivetrain and engine. Ensure the wet setup is managed properly. Either via the nos install or the ecu.
Add water injection for daily running and you will keep the IATs cooler anyway which will net a bit more power in the hotter weather. You then have all you need to have fun. Cooler running on the daily drive and the nos for that extra push when needed.
Why not upgrade the exhaust/headers to cope now and you could wind the turbos up a little more. And then you have a choice in the future to put larger units on if you get totally bored.
Behold81 said:
Nos will put no more strain on an engine than any other power modification if its done right. Infact I'm many cases it will be kinder.
If your putting more than 100bho you should use a progressive controller to be gentle to the drivetrain and engine. Ensure the wet setup is managed properly. Either via the nos install or the ecu.
Add water injection for daily running and you will keep the IATs cooler anyway which will net a bit more power in the hotter weather. You then have all you need to have fun. Cooler running on the daily drive and the nos for that extra push when needed.
Why not upgrade the exhaust/headers to cope now and you could wind the turbos up a little more. And then you have a choice in the future to put larger units on if you get totally bored.
Did discuss the option of new headers / exhaust but it's a journey into the unknown. Basically the kit fitted to my car was good for around 600ish flywheel. After I had the turbos rebuilt with Garrett internals they then produced 750 flywheel (only quoting FW as don't know what the kit could do originally at the wheels). So technically whilst the turbos have 11+ PSI on tap currently they are only running at 9PSI I believe.If your putting more than 100bho you should use a progressive controller to be gentle to the drivetrain and engine. Ensure the wet setup is managed properly. Either via the nos install or the ecu.
Add water injection for daily running and you will keep the IATs cooler anyway which will net a bit more power in the hotter weather. You then have all you need to have fun. Cooler running on the daily drive and the nos for that extra push when needed.
Why not upgrade the exhaust/headers to cope now and you could wind the turbos up a little more. And then you have a choice in the future to put larger units on if you get totally bored.
So do I gamble 2k on some headers and some fancy brackets to support the turbos as they currently hang off the bottom of the cast manifolds or try NOS? At least the NOS kit will be worth something if it doesn't actually do anything useful whereas some bespoke headers won't be worth anything.
What intake, heads and cam are you running?
I'd be digging out the calculator and making sure valve size, port size, cam duration and intake flow are all aligned to your 1000bhp requirement before looking at nos.
If your exhaust is restricted nos will make it worse.
Winding up boost its all well and good, but if you don't have the cam timing and head flow, or exhaust flow to suit...
I'd be digging out the calculator and making sure valve size, port size, cam duration and intake flow are all aligned to your 1000bhp requirement before looking at nos.
If your exhaust is restricted nos will make it worse.
Winding up boost its all well and good, but if you don't have the cam timing and head flow, or exhaust flow to suit...
EmmaJ said:
Just ask Pah250, JohnM or Paul450 how usable it is and how little lag I have, it's a really nice setup that I'm loathed to alter but I'd some more power...!
If I hadn't had known beforehand I wouldn't have actually guessed it was a turbo setup. Pretty smooth. I'd hate to change it if it were mine, but you're goals are a little higher than mine The tail pipes do smoke like a b
h though - I can see why you choose to disguise this with tyre smoke 
ringram said:
What intake, heads and cam are you running?
I'd be digging out the calculator and making sure valve size, port size, cam duration and intake flow are all aligned to your 1000bhp requirement before looking at nos.
If your exhaust is restricted nos will make it worse.
Winding up boost its all well and good, but if you don't have the cam timing and head flow, or exhaust flow to suit...
This is where I'm about to show I really know the square root of SFA about my own engine build..... I'd be digging out the calculator and making sure valve size, port size, cam duration and intake flow are all aligned to your 1000bhp requirement before looking at nos.
If your exhaust is restricted nos will make it worse.
Winding up boost its all well and good, but if you don't have the cam timing and head flow, or exhaust flow to suit...
As far I as know I'm running LS2 heads and a stock intake but it does have the MF Magic Turbo cam, I has some different rockers too. I don't have the CAM timings I guess MF guard those fairly closely? I believe I do have larger valves I'd have to check with Roger on that. Yes the exhaust restriction is definitely a major concern but I don't know how big of an issue that is in the real world if I just had NOS active between say 4000 and 5500RPM....?
What manifolds are you using ?
Guys in the US years ago have made near 2000hp on factory truck manifolds.
Yes most are on tubular headers now, but the fact remains simple works.
It would take some pretty bad manifolds to be causing a major power restriction on a turbo setup.
Especially when you consider the entry in the scroll of most turbos will barely be 40mm diameter.
For the 2010 Camaro etc, IPS, Hellion, AGP turbo all offer kits, virtually bolt on using standard LS3 cast manifolds with pretty nasty looking adapters as far as flow is concerned, and these can push 4 figures without too much difficulty ( yes, US numbers of course )
IMO there I'd struggle to believe manifolds are the problem unless they are truly horrific.
It's amazing how even terrible looking manifolds will still work very well on turbo applications.
What turbos are they, turbine housing size etc ? What sort of backpressure is there pre-turbine ?
But yes nitrous can offer power. Just make sure you can adequately and safely tune for when the nitrous is being used other wise it could all go bang.. A big shot of nitrous also doesnt last that long before the bottle will be empty.
But nitrous and boost DO work very well together due to the cooling effect of nitrous.
Guys in the US years ago have made near 2000hp on factory truck manifolds.
Yes most are on tubular headers now, but the fact remains simple works.
It would take some pretty bad manifolds to be causing a major power restriction on a turbo setup.
Especially when you consider the entry in the scroll of most turbos will barely be 40mm diameter.
For the 2010 Camaro etc, IPS, Hellion, AGP turbo all offer kits, virtually bolt on using standard LS3 cast manifolds with pretty nasty looking adapters as far as flow is concerned, and these can push 4 figures without too much difficulty ( yes, US numbers of course )
IMO there I'd struggle to believe manifolds are the problem unless they are truly horrific.
It's amazing how even terrible looking manifolds will still work very well on turbo applications.
What turbos are they, turbine housing size etc ? What sort of backpressure is there pre-turbine ?
But yes nitrous can offer power. Just make sure you can adequately and safely tune for when the nitrous is being used other wise it could all go bang.. A big shot of nitrous also doesnt last that long before the bottle will be empty.
But nitrous and boost DO work very well together due to the cooling effect of nitrous.
pah250 said:
EmmaJ said:
Just ask Pah250, JohnM or Paul450 how usable it is and how little lag I have, it's a really nice setup that I'm loathed to alter but I'd some more power...!
If I hadn't had known beforehand I wouldn't have actually guessed it was a turbo setup. Pretty smooth. I'd hate to change it if it were mine, but you're goals are a little higher than mine The tail pipes do smoke like a b
h though - I can see why you choose to disguise this with tyre smoke 
I'm told that this is due to the the oil getting aerated and passing into the breather which is fed back into the air intake so hence a load of oil ends up in the combustion chambers and ultimately out of the exhaust. The Fish have ordered in some LS specific oil for FI engines that greatly reduces that oil aeration so I'm looking forward to giving that a try
EmmaJ said:
Yeah the smokey exhaust pisses me off too
I'm told that this is due to the the oil getting aerated and passing into the breather which is fed back into the air intake so hence a load of oil ends up in the combustion chambers and ultimately out of the exhaust. The Fish have ordered in some LS specific oil for FI engines that greatly reduces that oil aeration so I'm looking forward to giving that a try
Do not return any breathers back into the air intake system. That crap is fine for n/a or standard vehicles etc.I'm told that this is due to the the oil getting aerated and passing into the breather which is fed back into the air intake so hence a load of oil ends up in the combustion chambers and ultimately out of the exhaust. The Fish have ordered in some LS specific oil for FI engines that greatly reduces that oil aeration so I'm looking forward to giving that a try
F**k that on anything performance related.
If you're feeding it back pre-turbo, not only will it cover the turbo, intercooler, all pipes etc with oil, all reducing their effectiveness, the oil will also reduce octane.
There is no sensible reason to do that, especially if you know it's dumping oil in.
Build a proper vent/catch can and vent externally ( maybe just re-plumbing back to intake if MOT man spots it )
stevieturbo said:
What manifolds are you using ?
Guys in the US years ago have made near 2000hp on factory truck manifolds.
Yes most are on tubular headers now, but the fact remains simple works.
It would take some pretty bad manifolds to be causing a major power restriction on a turbo setup.
Especially when you consider the entry in the scroll of most turbos will barely be 40mm diameter.
For the 2010 Camaro etc, IPS, Hellion, AGP turbo all offer kits, virtually bolt on using standard LS3 cast manifolds with pretty nasty looking adapters as far as flow is concerned, and these can push 4 figures without too much difficulty ( yes, US numbers of course )
IMO there I'd struggle to believe manifolds are the problem unless they are truly horrific.
It's amazing how even terrible looking manifolds will still work very well on turbo applications.
What turbos are they, turbine housing size etc ? What sort of backpressure is there pre-turbine ?
But yes nitrous can offer power. Just make sure you can adequately and safely tune for when the nitrous is being used other wise it could all go bang.. A big shot of nitrous also doesnt last that long before the bottle will be empty.
But nitrous and boost DO work very well together due to the cooling effect of nitrous.
I might have just blagged the answers to Ringram's questions, I've not got a hope in hell of bluffing answers to that lot...!Guys in the US years ago have made near 2000hp on factory truck manifolds.
Yes most are on tubular headers now, but the fact remains simple works.
It would take some pretty bad manifolds to be causing a major power restriction on a turbo setup.
Especially when you consider the entry in the scroll of most turbos will barely be 40mm diameter.
For the 2010 Camaro etc, IPS, Hellion, AGP turbo all offer kits, virtually bolt on using standard LS3 cast manifolds with pretty nasty looking adapters as far as flow is concerned, and these can push 4 figures without too much difficulty ( yes, US numbers of course )
IMO there I'd struggle to believe manifolds are the problem unless they are truly horrific.
It's amazing how even terrible looking manifolds will still work very well on turbo applications.
What turbos are they, turbine housing size etc ? What sort of backpressure is there pre-turbine ?
But yes nitrous can offer power. Just make sure you can adequately and safely tune for when the nitrous is being used other wise it could all go bang.. A big shot of nitrous also doesnt last that long before the bottle will be empty.
But nitrous and boost DO work very well together due to the cooling effect of nitrous.
Stevie I'll endeavour to find out answers to your questions because I really do appreciate your input but I'm at the end of my knowledge. The manifolds are part of the original TT kit that the original owner had fitted. All I can currently tell you is that they are cast rather than tubular.
Does seem odd that other FI setups are pushing huge numbers compared to what I'm currently capped at supposedly due to exhaust restriction of some kind....
stevieturbo said:
Do not return any breathers back into the air intake system. That crap is fine for n/a or standard vehicles etc.
F**k that on anything performance related.
If you're feeding it back pre-turbo, not only will it cover the turbo, intercooler, all pipes etc with oil, all reducing their effectiveness, the oil will also reduce octane.
There is no sensible reason to do that, especially if you know it's dumping oil in.
Build a proper vent/catch can and vent externally ( maybe just re-plumbing back to intake if MOT man spots it )
OK, sounds like my 1st priority is to get this sorted before I do anything else! Given my oil consumption it's dumping a shedload of oil into the air intake and associated intercooler pipework. Hence the soon to be new oil that is supposed to reduce the amount of aeration of the oil.F**k that on anything performance related.
If you're feeding it back pre-turbo, not only will it cover the turbo, intercooler, all pipes etc with oil, all reducing their effectiveness, the oil will also reduce octane.
There is no sensible reason to do that, especially if you know it's dumping oil in.
Build a proper vent/catch can and vent externally ( maybe just re-plumbing back to intake if MOT man spots it )
jameshsv said:
Have you run at V.MAX yet with your current set up.
Not yet. TR this year will be the 1st time that my engine, new 'box and rebuilt turbos have been run together. Last year I had the turbos and gearbox but was using a loan LS1 engine that just didn't have much to give beyond 5k rpm.Well here is another thing to consider.
IF...and that's a huge IF.
If there is a problem with exhaust flow at present and it is limiting power.
Then it would be crazy to try and ram another 100-200hp down the engines throat via NOS, if it has no way of getting rid of that extra power out the exhaust.
As for making all things nice, tubular etc etc...
I'm not saying go down this route....but they do get good results, despite the "sloppy" work. And they spend very very little money
Crappy pipes, crappy welding, chinese turbos, junkyard motors.
Everything that says they shouldnt make any power lol
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/everythin...
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/sloppy-bu...
IF...and that's a huge IF.
If there is a problem with exhaust flow at present and it is limiting power.
Then it would be crazy to try and ram another 100-200hp down the engines throat via NOS, if it has no way of getting rid of that extra power out the exhaust.
As for making all things nice, tubular etc etc...
I'm not saying go down this route....but they do get good results, despite the "sloppy" work. And they spend very very little money
Crappy pipes, crappy welding, chinese turbos, junkyard motors.
Everything that says they shouldnt make any power lol
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/everythin...
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/sloppy-bu...
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