What's next for a tune?
Discussion
I understand the stock heads stall around 480fwhp, so if you are searching past there you need to get a set of heads. One of the guys from AFR has a corvette with 475rwhp and a 224/228 cam. So basically once you hit 400rwhp you will need to get better heads.
It depends how much more you want. A Cam in itself isnt going to set the world on fire.
You could do worse than spending a few hours on ls1tech.com using the search functions.
I dont think there is any point getting higher ratio rockers if you are going to get a cam. There are more cams available for the stock 1.7s than 1.8s.
If you are after a noticably larger increase in power heads and cam if where its at. But you will need full headers to take advantage of them.
Bear in mind though that a cam will alter the drivability of the car if your not careful. Daily driven cars should probably stick to 210-224 duration cams. I used to run a 218 which was good. Looking at a 220/224 this time around...
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 19:13
It depends how much more you want. A Cam in itself isnt going to set the world on fire.
You could do worse than spending a few hours on ls1tech.com using the search functions.
I dont think there is any point getting higher ratio rockers if you are going to get a cam. There are more cams available for the stock 1.7s than 1.8s.
If you are after a noticably larger increase in power heads and cam if where its at. But you will need full headers to take advantage of them.
Bear in mind though that a cam will alter the drivability of the car if your not careful. Daily driven cars should probably stick to 210-224 duration cams. I used to run a 218 which was good. Looking at a 220/224 this time around...
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 19:13
[quote] So basically once you hit 400rwhp you will need to get better heads.[/quote]
You would need a BIG cam to get to 400whp in the first place on an ls1 monaro. Heads are not necessary (very nice yes!)- there are supercharged gto's putting well over 400rwhp down on stock heads. Cam only numbers are as high 390rwhp (~475bhp) with bolt-ons.
[quote]
It depends how much more you want. A Cam in itself isnt going to set the world on fire.
[/quote]
This is debatable, most headers will see a 20hp increase (using experience from forum members). A reasonable sized cam and tune could easily net you 40, 50 maybe even 60 more hp. Thats pretty big in my book!
[quote]
You could do worse than spending a few hours on ls1tech.com using the search functions.
[/quote]
Don't worry, the search button has had many a hit! lol
[quote]
I dont think there is any point getting higher ratio rockers if you are going to get a cam. There are more cams available for the stock 1.7s than 1.8s.
[/quote]
Agreed, most guys in the US seem to reccomend keeping the stock rockers as they are one of the few internal parts that can take high hp figures and are actually quite efficent. There isn't that much power to be had by changing them.
With regards to driveability, the lobe seperation angle (lsa) is also as important, if not more so than the
intake/exhaust duration for retaining driveability. It will also affect how it sounds at idle.
There is a lot of choice when it comes to cams and it basically boils down to what you are looking to achieve, i.e peak hp, low end torque, driveability etc.
>> Edited by booster on Saturday 15th October 20:02
You would need a BIG cam to get to 400whp in the first place on an ls1 monaro. Heads are not necessary (very nice yes!)- there are supercharged gto's putting well over 400rwhp down on stock heads. Cam only numbers are as high 390rwhp (~475bhp) with bolt-ons.
[quote]
It depends how much more you want. A Cam in itself isnt going to set the world on fire.
[/quote]
This is debatable, most headers will see a 20hp increase (using experience from forum members). A reasonable sized cam and tune could easily net you 40, 50 maybe even 60 more hp. Thats pretty big in my book!
[quote]
You could do worse than spending a few hours on ls1tech.com using the search functions.
[/quote]
Don't worry, the search button has had many a hit! lol
[quote]
I dont think there is any point getting higher ratio rockers if you are going to get a cam. There are more cams available for the stock 1.7s than 1.8s.
[/quote]
Agreed, most guys in the US seem to reccomend keeping the stock rockers as they are one of the few internal parts that can take high hp figures and are actually quite efficent. There isn't that much power to be had by changing them.
With regards to driveability, the lobe seperation angle (lsa) is also as important, if not more so than the
intake/exhaust duration for retaining driveability. It will also affect how it sounds at idle.
There is a lot of choice when it comes to cams and it basically boils down to what you are looking to achieve, i.e peak hp, low end torque, driveability etc.
>> Edited by booster on Saturday 15th October 20:02
If you are serious a stroker kit(basically grows the swept capacity e.g takes a 5.7 and makes it a 6.3)gives major torque and HP potential gain but a lot of other bits will be required.
I also have larger MAF meter and roller rockers and the increase from that was quite noticable so I would not discount it outright.
Also if you are after acceleration go for the 3.9 diff. It is one of thd most common mods down under. Taken my car to around 10 seconds for 0- 100. I reckon it is one of the best mods you can do.
Serious thump in the back at any speed! Just get a bigger tyre budget.
Following much deliberation I am going down the cam route myself as the next stage. Agree with Booster over gains. I have spent the last few weeks in conversation with guys in Oz and elsehwere (includigng UK)and cams (without head mods) regulary give at least 50HP at the wheels.
Best advice I can offer is speak to people who have done it. My work was all done by Wortec and the gradual build up has always set me up nicely for teh next stage with options depending on what you want to achieve. That is the biggest issue be clear on this first.
Have you done brakes? Remember performance is about handling and braking as well. Recent article in evo placed a clio sport against a lambo gallardo on real world roads and teh lambo (with 4x4) could not loose the clio!!!
I also have larger MAF meter and roller rockers and the increase from that was quite noticable so I would not discount it outright.
Also if you are after acceleration go for the 3.9 diff. It is one of thd most common mods down under. Taken my car to around 10 seconds for 0- 100. I reckon it is one of the best mods you can do.
Serious thump in the back at any speed! Just get a bigger tyre budget.
Following much deliberation I am going down the cam route myself as the next stage. Agree with Booster over gains. I have spent the last few weeks in conversation with guys in Oz and elsehwere (includigng UK)and cams (without head mods) regulary give at least 50HP at the wheels.
Best advice I can offer is speak to people who have done it. My work was all done by Wortec and the gradual build up has always set me up nicely for teh next stage with options depending on what you want to achieve. That is the biggest issue be clear on this first.
Have you done brakes? Remember performance is about handling and braking as well. Recent article in evo placed a clio sport against a lambo gallardo on real world roads and teh lambo (with 4x4) could not loose the clio!!!
damoace said:
fist imprssions Nige?
For my 1st impression - Elvis
Thangyew verrmush laideesandgennelmen
Seriously though;
great sound - doesn't drone at all in fact you wouldn't really know the exhaust is fitted...until you open it up.
And it rawks. Lovely throaty sound, deffo not TVR sounding, more NASCAR.
Nice bit of extra power but not as much as I expected.
I believe that wil come by using Super Unleaded after 2 tanks worth apparently. I guess the ECU adapts.
Filled up with SU and have done about 70miles since and can feel the motor getting stronger.
Hope it gets to as much as the loan car I had from Greens which is really punchy.
Sorry BigNige but have you got VXR or CV8?
With either if you try 3 or 4 hard attacks on roudabouts I would be interested to see how strong they were after that. I would almost bet my mortgaage you will get serious fade (assuming there is not 50 miles between each roundabout!.
I am have upgtraed to some HSV brakes with bigger ventilated disks and EBD red stuff and they are way better than original stuff. But I will be going to the APs in the next few months especially if/when the cam goes in!
With either if you try 3 or 4 hard attacks on roudabouts I would be interested to see how strong they were after that. I would almost bet my mortgaage you will get serious fade (assuming there is not 50 miles between each roundabout!.
I am have upgtraed to some HSV brakes with bigger ventilated disks and EBD red stuff and they are way better than original stuff. But I will be going to the APs in the next few months especially if/when the cam goes in!
I must admit Im still deciding whether to do heads at the same time. Seems silly to pay to pull half the engine apart and go to the trouble of taking the car to the mech's for the sake of $1200US, the cost of some stage2 Patriot LS6 ported heads. You also get uprated valve springs which you will certainly need with a new cam. I think Ill wait till booster and P47 get their cams done to hear the feedback. I just did a cam last time and was happy, but always thought, "what if" I did the heads.
Anyway for good 1.8 ratio cams check out some of the crane grinds. SDPC do a couple, plus www.vincihighperformance.com do loads of differnt ones. They list a wide range on their site.
Booster is right, overlap will help to tame a larger cam, but overlap means lope, increased emmissions and fuel dumped down the exhaust, its a trade off ultimately. Best I can suggest is to do searches on the various LS1 sites and make your own decision based on your requirements. I drive mine every day so its a 220 max for me. I remember the 218/228 112 I had last time and I wouldnt want any more especially when stuck in bumper to bumper traffic. Maybe booster can take me for a drive in his 230+ beast when he gets it and change my mind.
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 23:05
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 23:07
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 23:08
Anyway for good 1.8 ratio cams check out some of the crane grinds. SDPC do a couple, plus www.vincihighperformance.com do loads of differnt ones. They list a wide range on their site.
Booster is right, overlap will help to tame a larger cam, but overlap means lope, increased emmissions and fuel dumped down the exhaust, its a trade off ultimately. Best I can suggest is to do searches on the various LS1 sites and make your own decision based on your requirements. I drive mine every day so its a 220 max for me. I remember the 218/228 112 I had last time and I wouldnt want any more especially when stuck in bumper to bumper traffic. Maybe booster can take me for a drive in his 230+ beast when he gets it and change my mind.
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 23:05
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 23:07
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 15th October 23:08
booster said:
Sean,
When you get the cam be sure to get one suitable for 1.8 ratio rockers. When are you looking to get it done? Results will be interesting.
With some of the fast-ramp rate cams by Comp, etc. fitting higher ratio than 1.7 is NOT recommended. It'd be pretty sore on the valve guides and valve stems.
If you have a cam with more moderate ramp rates with around .308" cam lobe lift you'd be okay.
While ported heads do make a difference, the stock heads actually out-flow the LS6 heads at mid lift. If you are chasing peak power and aiming for over 470hp then there might be justification for the outlay, but you'll be spending big money on other engine parts too if you want to keep some semblence of durability and reliability at those sort of hp levels.
With no guarantee that it would be quicker on the street (as opposed to faster, or having a higher max speed) than an engine with a modest-sized cam and a realistic rev-limit set below 6500rpm (and therefore not needing expensive or more exotic parts to be fitted).
Revving this engine above 6,300 with the stock valves WILL cause reliabilty issues...
www.idavette.net/hib/02ls6/page2.htm
>> Edited by sid447 on Sunday 16th October 08:30
>> Edited by sid447 on Monday 17th October 08:49
Thats one of the reasons why I don't want larger ratio rockers - It seriously hampers the size of cam you can get. That's interesting about the stock heads outflowing the ls6 heads at mid-rpm, it might be worth keeping the stock heads then anyway to maintain power in the low-mid ranges?
I do not want a huge cam as my car is my daily drive and I do 20K + a year so drivability and fuel economy (as such with these wee beasties) is still a consideration.
Talking to some Oz chaps big cams seem to have downsides for every day driving and if you do not change many other components durability as well.
Trouble is everyone has an opinion and I suspect depending on your expreience and what you are trying to achieve they are all probably right to some degree.
The best advice, especially with cam changes, is to be very sure about what you wish to achieve and make sure you speak to respected exponents who have doen what you are trying to achieve.
A flaming black art this stuff!
Talking to some Oz chaps big cams seem to have downsides for every day driving and if you do not change many other components durability as well.
Trouble is everyone has an opinion and I suspect depending on your expreience and what you are trying to achieve they are all probably right to some degree.
The best advice, especially with cam changes, is to be very sure about what you wish to achieve and make sure you speak to respected exponents who have doen what you are trying to achieve.
A flaming black art this stuff!
Totally agree, no point putting plain old LS6 heads on. Aftermarket ported ones however.. A set of AFR205's can show a solid 35ftlb gain throughout the entire range, you can have your cake and eat it too. Also means just about any cam is going to get what it needs to breathe. This is a good place to look at a good streetable cam and what a good set of heads will do <a www.vincihighperformance.com/BECKER%20PROJECT%20GRAPH%20PAGE%20.HTML
Also check out this Dyno chart from SAM's in oz shows a wide range of cams and how minor the differences are. Looks sensible to chose the one with best drivability. Also note the smaller cams pull more torque until well into the 4000RPM range. <a www.samsperformance.com/Research.cfm
You may also be interested to note that the "little" 212 cam pulls very close to the 242 cam with higgins heads right to around 4000RPM where the big cam takes over. As P47 says, do your research. A sensible heads and cam combo will blow the pants off a cam only solution and be more drivable and fuel efficient.
Anyway no point me harping on any more. Im looking forward to seeing feedback from the first cam installs.
>> Edited by ringram on Sunday 16th October 14:18
Also check out this Dyno chart from SAM's in oz shows a wide range of cams and how minor the differences are. Looks sensible to chose the one with best drivability. Also note the smaller cams pull more torque until well into the 4000RPM range. <a www.samsperformance.com/Research.cfm
You may also be interested to note that the "little" 212 cam pulls very close to the 242 cam with higgins heads right to around 4000RPM where the big cam takes over. As P47 says, do your research. A sensible heads and cam combo will blow the pants off a cam only solution and be more drivable and fuel efficient.
Anyway no point me harping on any more. Im looking forward to seeing feedback from the first cam installs.
>> Edited by ringram on Sunday 16th October 14:18
Thanks ringram - nice observations. Tiler also pointed out to me (as well as Sid447) the 212 (which Tiler has in his car) as a good 'street' set up that delivers. Personally not worried too much about peak HP anymore want low down and mid range(say up to 130mph)grunt that is where you need it to destroy any takers on real roads.
Have a read here,
and see what happens to an LS2 that is fitted with an '01 LS6 cam [204 / 211 .525"/.525"] (they've mis-printed the specs in the article) BUT reground with a 110LSA.
...and an '02 LS6 [204 / 218 .551"/.547"] re-ground with a 112LSA
Also a set of Katech CNC'd heads, an LS6 intake, headers etc and a 226/226 .585"/.585" cam:-
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/113_0504_ls2/
NOTE: the smaller cams bettered the 226/226 all the way to 5,200rpm.
>> Edited by sid447 on Tuesday 18th October 07:47
and see what happens to an LS2 that is fitted with an '01 LS6 cam [204 / 211 .525"/.525"] (they've mis-printed the specs in the article) BUT reground with a 110LSA.
...and an '02 LS6 [204 / 218 .551"/.547"] re-ground with a 112LSA
Also a set of Katech CNC'd heads, an LS6 intake, headers etc and a 226/226 .585"/.585" cam:-
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/113_0504_ls2/
NOTE: the smaller cams bettered the 226/226 all the way to 5,200rpm.
>> Edited by sid447 on Tuesday 18th October 07:47
[quote]
For my 1st impression - Elvis
Thangyew verrmush laideesandgennelmen
And it rawks. Lovely throaty sound, deffo not TVR sounding, more NASCAR.
[/quote]
Daft as brush and mad as a box of spoons you are. Glad to hear you are pleased chappie... I was considering spending money on the Black one, but my roadcar needs replacing after 4 years of my gentle ministrations so that must take priority. So far the candidates are ZXR Astra, ZXR Zaffy and (if I can convince Mrs. Ace) the 130I Sport.
The jury will-reconvene after christmas to annouce it's verdict
For my 1st impression - Elvis
Thangyew verrmush laideesandgennelmen
And it rawks. Lovely throaty sound, deffo not TVR sounding, more NASCAR.
[/quote] Daft as brush and mad as a box of spoons you are. Glad to hear you are pleased chappie... I was considering spending money on the Black one, but my roadcar needs replacing after 4 years of my gentle ministrations so that must take priority. So far the candidates are ZXR Astra, ZXR Zaffy and (if I can convince Mrs. Ace) the 130I Sport.
The jury will-reconvene after christmas to annouce it's verdict
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