Discussion
A new Monaro owner here with a question that I am sure has been asked many times before, but I cant find anything definitive. Sorry if I tread on any interested parties toes here....
I am curious about the power claims made for simply reprogramming the fuel and ingition maps on monaros.
Although I have no experience with GM V8s, a 45hp increase simply from changing the fuel and ignition maps seems too good to be true to me. I have raced cars with "stock" engines for 10 years and a 15% power hike over stock isnt usually this easy or cheap unless there is something that needs fixed.
Has anyone here got any real rolling road plots of "before and after" fitting any of the Wortec kits....
Many thanks.
I am curious about the power claims made for simply reprogramming the fuel and ingition maps on monaros.
Although I have no experience with GM V8s, a 45hp increase simply from changing the fuel and ignition maps seems too good to be true to me. I have raced cars with "stock" engines for 10 years and a 15% power hike over stock isnt usually this easy or cheap unless there is something that needs fixed.
Has anyone here got any real rolling road plots of "before and after" fitting any of the Wortec kits....
Many thanks.
martin08 said:
I have raced cars with "stock" engines for 10 years and a 15% power hike over stock isnt usually this easy or cheap unless there is something that needs fixed.
What size engines were they?In % terms, 45bhp out of a 5.7/6.0 thats understressed isn't too over the top IMO.
thanks for the quick reply elliot.
45 hp out of 330 to start with is about 15% which is pretty high.
On most stock engines there is a "flat spot" where they retard the ignition and sometimes the fuelling to hit a noise or economy "sweet spot" (eg 100km/h in top). I have had 5 different cars on rolling roads getting fuelling and ignition optimised over the last few years and the best I have ever seen is a 15% increase where a "hole" is filled in. Now some people would then say thats a 15% power increase but in reality its only at one spot in the rev range. The peak power rarely increases by more than 5%.
And to answer your question i have raced a range of cars with bike engines, Ford cross flows and pintos and GM CIH 2.0s.
45 hp out of 330 to start with is about 15% which is pretty high.
On most stock engines there is a "flat spot" where they retard the ignition and sometimes the fuelling to hit a noise or economy "sweet spot" (eg 100km/h in top). I have had 5 different cars on rolling roads getting fuelling and ignition optimised over the last few years and the best I have ever seen is a 15% increase where a "hole" is filled in. Now some people would then say thats a 15% power increase but in reality its only at one spot in the rev range. The peak power rarely increases by more than 5%.
And to answer your question i have raced a range of cars with bike engines, Ford cross flows and pintos and GM CIH 2.0s.
You will find dyno charts on the Wortec web site that show area under the curve gains on many of their upgrades.
www.wortec.co.uk
www.wortec.co.uk
Edited by greens vauxhall on Tuesday 15th January 16:40
Thanks for the response.
You know I think you are right in that the 45hp will require the full kit, however I quote from the Wortec web site for 2004 CV8
"Essential Pac:
The first crucial upgrade, and a must for Monaro owners, this wortec Essential pac delivers improved throttle response, increased spread of torque/power and up to 45bhp increase in Power, with the added bonus of improved fuel economy"
The Wortec and Monkfish guys seem great, very responsive and knowledgable, but the dyno charts on Wortec web site are not real charts generated from a rolling road from a customer installation, they are stylised representations which is why I am asking if anyone has been on a rolling road.
I found some useful American and australian sites which would kind of support your point though. THere is an article called "An easy 20hp in under an hour" for an LS1. Mods includes MAF, airbox mod throttle body modification and a remap to get 25 bhp. see www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/86218_chevrolet_ls1_engine_modifications/index.html.
All this makes 45 hp just from a tune look ambitious.
However I am sure there are UK US variances in base engine specs which is why I am so keen to see if anyone here has RR or drag strip data.
NOt trying to be provocative but like many of you I have spent LOADS of money trying to extract a few hp for race cars over the years, and I have become a but cynical. I hope someome on the forum can prove that I am wrong to be with some real world data.
45hp for £500 is the best value for money in the history of cars is it true???
You know I think you are right in that the 45hp will require the full kit, however I quote from the Wortec web site for 2004 CV8
"Essential Pac:
The first crucial upgrade, and a must for Monaro owners, this wortec Essential pac delivers improved throttle response, increased spread of torque/power and up to 45bhp increase in Power, with the added bonus of improved fuel economy"
The Wortec and Monkfish guys seem great, very responsive and knowledgable, but the dyno charts on Wortec web site are not real charts generated from a rolling road from a customer installation, they are stylised representations which is why I am asking if anyone has been on a rolling road.
I found some useful American and australian sites which would kind of support your point though. THere is an article called "An easy 20hp in under an hour" for an LS1. Mods includes MAF, airbox mod throttle body modification and a remap to get 25 bhp. see www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/86218_chevrolet_ls1_engine_modifications/index.html.
All this makes 45 hp just from a tune look ambitious.
However I am sure there are UK US variances in base engine specs which is why I am so keen to see if anyone here has RR or drag strip data.
NOt trying to be provocative but like many of you I have spent LOADS of money trying to extract a few hp for race cars over the years, and I have become a but cynical. I hope someome on the forum can prove that I am wrong to be with some real world data.
45hp for £500 is the best value for money in the history of cars is it true???
With N/A engines manufacturers generally get to 95% - 98% map efficiency.
They are not without decent engineers and there is in most cases there are no reasons (other than the testing blackspots already mentioned) not to tune an engine map to be as efficient as possible. Although some stock maps retard the lower rev range to increase cruising fuel economy for the sake of some low down power.
The only gains that you can realistically make is that the map applied by the manufacturer will be a generic fit all and will not be tuned specifically to the exact engine it's applied to. An extra 10% is not likely as the stock tunes really ought not to be that far out on a modern engine.
Of course, if the map raises the RPM cut out then it's a different story as in most cases as long as the airflow isn't too restrictive more revs is good.
Mapping drive-by-wire throttles to be more aggressive can do wonders of a cars perceived power but actually make little difference to performance (you get the same effect by pressing the accelerator a little further a little quicker)
They are not without decent engineers and there is in most cases there are no reasons (other than the testing blackspots already mentioned) not to tune an engine map to be as efficient as possible. Although some stock maps retard the lower rev range to increase cruising fuel economy for the sake of some low down power.
The only gains that you can realistically make is that the map applied by the manufacturer will be a generic fit all and will not be tuned specifically to the exact engine it's applied to. An extra 10% is not likely as the stock tunes really ought not to be that far out on a modern engine.
Of course, if the map raises the RPM cut out then it's a different story as in most cases as long as the airflow isn't too restrictive more revs is good.
Mapping drive-by-wire throttles to be more aggressive can do wonders of a cars perceived power but actually make little difference to performance (you get the same effect by pressing the accelerator a little further a little quicker)
thanks RapidGB I will do when pistonheads lets me - I am too new!. (unless you want to publish your email address here...and I will email you)
Found another thread here which is a great article. Shows 10% power increase on a VXR with full system and remap. Probably about normal and goes some way to confirming my cynicism.
www.hsv.org.uk/topic.asp?h=27&f=69&t=303489
Found another thread here which is a great article. Shows 10% power increase on a VXR with full system and remap. Probably about normal and goes some way to confirming my cynicism.
www.hsv.org.uk/topic.asp?h=27&f=69&t=303489
martin08 said:
but the dyno charts on Wortec web site are not real charts generated from a rolling road from a customer installation, they are stylised representations which is why I am asking if anyone has been on a rolling road.
The charts are exact copies of real "dynapac" charts, converted to pdf. files so they scale ..............no poor quality scans here
Stock LS1 engines in Oz dyno around 185rwkw aka 250rwhp thats with the stock intake, exhaust and tune.
Update the intake, put proper headers and exhaust system on and tune it to optimal and this rises to 230rwkw aka 310rwhp a 60bhp at the rear gain!
Its not just the tune mind, its the whole package. Take a read on ls1.com.au and you will see what I mean. Stock tunes run rich and in places lazy timing, plus the engines are strangled.
Thats why the LSx range is so popular its well undertuned generally from OEM. Afterall they are 5700cc and up!
Update the intake, put proper headers and exhaust system on and tune it to optimal and this rises to 230rwkw aka 310rwhp a 60bhp at the rear gain!
Its not just the tune mind, its the whole package. Take a read on ls1.com.au and you will see what I mean. Stock tunes run rich and in places lazy timing, plus the engines are strangled.
Thats why the LSx range is so popular its well undertuned generally from OEM. Afterall they are 5700cc and up!
I too am very interested in a remap on its own (05 CV8) but also want to see hard figures/graphs. I witnessed my mate's Skyline on a rolling road and the clarity of the graphs was excellent so no excuses! I have asked both Wortec and Monkfish for graphs and both promised to provide but haven't. I like the fly by wire throttle and like it nice and progressive. If I'm getting more power/torque I expect to have to push it further not less!
martin08 said:
Thanks for the response.
You know I think you are right in that the 45hp will require the full kit, however I quote from the Wortec web site for 2004 CV8
"Essential Pac:
The first crucial upgrade, and a must for Monaro owners, this wortec Essential pac delivers improved throttle response, increased spread of torque/power and up to 45bhp increase in Power, with the added bonus of improved fuel economy"
45hp for £500 is the best value for money in the history of cars is it true???
You know I think you are right in that the 45hp will require the full kit, however I quote from the Wortec web site for 2004 CV8
"Essential Pac:
The first crucial upgrade, and a must for Monaro owners, this wortec Essential pac delivers improved throttle response, increased spread of torque/power and up to 45bhp increase in Power, with the added bonus of improved fuel economy"
45hp for £500 is the best value for money in the history of cars is it true???
That would be very good value, but if you try reading it properly you'll see it says "UP TO 45bhp Increase".... You may only get 1..
I have to say I agree with you, but it always makes me chuckle how people seize on the figures and start questioning them
Marketing men don't you know, they've suckered you in and made you believe it!!! Forget the increase and reap the benefit of everything else in the statement, as thats mainly true..
No I agree the ETC throttle doesn't add power, it simply gives the engine management fully authority over both air and fuel rather than just fuel. Presumably its main advantage is emissions under transient conditions. No I just don't want it made less progressive just to give an impression of greater initial power.
I guess the remaps just increase fuel not air. So either way the throttle positions where full load is obtained should not change.
I guess the remaps just increase fuel not air. So either way the throttle positions where full load is obtained should not change.
Edited by granada203028 on Wednesday 16th January 17:00
granada203028 said:
I guess the remaps just increase fuel not air. So either way the throttle positions where full load is obtained should not change.
Having played around with mine for a while, I would say that you should be taking fuel away to get more power. As standard the cars are set up very conservatively, not running much timing and running rich in open loop. I'm just waiting for my interface to be returned from being repaired, and then i'll take a look to see how the tune is holding up after 50000 miles :-) do a search for the 2nd hole mod to increase the air into your engine and consider fitting a K&N filter. Theres been claims on various forums though warning about K&N re possibly oiling up your maf over time - so why not remove it and have someone upload the HSV mafless tune from the web for 5.7l LS1 engines for a cheap performance boost. Won't be tuned exactly for your engine but will run smoothly enough as they installed that map from the factory on cars. All you need is someone with a copy of EFIlive and a spare ecu licence. Total cost inc replacement maf pipe - under 250 quid (100-120 quid maf pipe, 50 quid K&N, 80 quid efi ecu licence for someone with the software already) Or get into doing your own tuning and buy your own copy of EFILive from ringram (he's UK distributor), quite a few of us have already done so.
If you want to go with one of the dealers then I believe Mark at RapidGB is the only one who does a before and after rolling road with your car so you can see the actual change in the wheel power figures. Monkfish and the other Wortec dealers I believe still tune on the road but I'm sure could arrange a rolling road run as well for an additional cost. Either way the remap does totally transform the car from stock and you'll have the bug by then and want the exhaust, the brakes, the suspension, the supercharger and on and on until you end up like HarryOz or Tiler where the seats are about the only things still original :-)
If you want to go with one of the dealers then I believe Mark at RapidGB is the only one who does a before and after rolling road with your car so you can see the actual change in the wheel power figures. Monkfish and the other Wortec dealers I believe still tune on the road but I'm sure could arrange a rolling road run as well for an additional cost. Either way the remap does totally transform the car from stock and you'll have the bug by then and want the exhaust, the brakes, the suspension, the supercharger and on and on until you end up like HarryOz or Tiler where the seats are about the only things still original :-)
I have a CV8 making 308 WBHP = aprox 400BHP crank (focus pack)
But was overfueling due to very dirty air filter, when cleaned made difference to MPG
Spoke to Monkfish (Roger was very helpfull!!) and they said they would sort it if it was not the air filter. wating for some time off work and will book it in to have it looked at.
Also a bit OT but when the car starts from cold there is a whining noise think is may be cambelt tensioner, it goes when warmed up. Anyone got this too????
But was overfueling due to very dirty air filter, when cleaned made difference to MPG
Spoke to Monkfish (Roger was very helpfull!!) and they said they would sort it if it was not the air filter. wating for some time off work and will book it in to have it looked at.
Also a bit OT but when the car starts from cold there is a whining noise think is may be cambelt tensioner, it goes when warmed up. Anyone got this too????
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