Discussion
Having been humbled at the dyno day and wings and wheels I have got to get more power, and fast. Whilst a supercharger is quick and convenient, being a compressed air engineer, I can't bring myself to fork out the £5000 they want for a simple roots blower. I was looking at a pair of L92 heads, cam, intake package which gives a fair old bang for the buck, but I've just been quoted £4595 for a hi power LS3 (480bhp) and another £759 for its ECU and harness.
Wondered if anyone knows of any issues with this as it makes the price of SC look stupidly high. Richard?
I would be dropping the motor in myself. I have asked the supplier about issues regarding whether the new ECU (type?) would be OK with the existing TCM and BCM. I know I would have to look at beefing up the trans (L65E)whichever way I do it. The new ECU would be needed as the LS3 uses a 54 tooth reluctor and my E40 uses 24 on the LS2.
I thought this package was very cost effective against the price of an LS7 at £11K for 505BHP and thinking about whats in it (a whole engine) against a simple blower, makes you wonder where these guys get their prices from????!!!! - I also get a complete spare motor and ECU for re sale or spare.
Wondered if anyone knows of any issues with this as it makes the price of SC look stupidly high. Richard?
I would be dropping the motor in myself. I have asked the supplier about issues regarding whether the new ECU (type?) would be OK with the existing TCM and BCM. I know I would have to look at beefing up the trans (L65E)whichever way I do it. The new ECU would be needed as the LS3 uses a 54 tooth reluctor and my E40 uses 24 on the LS2.
I thought this package was very cost effective against the price of an LS7 at £11K for 505BHP and thinking about whats in it (a whole engine) against a simple blower, makes you wonder where these guys get their prices from????!!!! - I also get a complete spare motor and ECU for re sale or spare.
stevieturbo said:
If doing the work yourself, why not just throw heads and cam onto your existing ??? and Have it re-tuned.
A pair of Dart heads are excellent value, or some of Patriot's re-worked LS castings.
That along with a cam and other breathing mods, would be good value.
What do you think would be the advantages of the above over the L92's? I've got EFILive so tune shouldn't be a problem. And what kind of cost are we looking at Stevie?A pair of Dart heads are excellent value, or some of Patriot's re-worked LS castings.
That along with a cam and other breathing mods, would be good value.
MyM8V8 said:
Having been humbled at the dyno day and wings and wheels I have got to get more power, and fast. Whilst a supercharger is quick and convenient, being a compressed air engineer, I can't bring myself to fork out the £5000 they want for a simple roots blower. I was looking at a pair of L92 heads, cam, intake package which gives a fair old bang for the buck, but I've just been quoted £4595 for a hi power LS3 (480bhp) and another £759 for its ECU and harness.
Wondered if anyone knows of any issues with this as it makes the price of SC look stupidly high. Richard?
I would be dropping the motor in myself. I have asked the supplier about issues regarding whether the new ECU (type?) would be OK with the existing TCM and BCM. I know I would have to look at beefing up the trans (L65E)whichever way I do it. The new ECU would be needed as the LS3 uses a 54 tooth reluctor and my E40 uses 24 on the LS2.
I thought this package was very cost effective against the price of an LS7 at £11K for 505BHP and thinking about whats in it (a whole engine) against a simple blower, makes you wonder where these guys get their prices from????!!!! - I also get a complete spare motor and ECU for re sale or spare.
Best to keep your ECU TBH, just wire the sensors up the Gen IV engines should be the same EXCEPT you may have a 24 reluctor ring crank, the new engines are 58 reluctor (Hall sensor) therefore you may either need to change crank or change ECU. Both are semi painfull.Wondered if anyone knows of any issues with this as it makes the price of SC look stupidly high. Richard?
I would be dropping the motor in myself. I have asked the supplier about issues regarding whether the new ECU (type?) would be OK with the existing TCM and BCM. I know I would have to look at beefing up the trans (L65E)whichever way I do it. The new ECU would be needed as the LS3 uses a 54 tooth reluctor and my E40 uses 24 on the LS2.
I thought this package was very cost effective against the price of an LS7 at £11K for 505BHP and thinking about whats in it (a whole engine) against a simple blower, makes you wonder where these guys get their prices from????!!!! - I also get a complete spare motor and ECU for re sale or spare.
Why not consider a stroker shortblock? sdparts.com is a good place to look. Or maybe talk to Pete Knight for a local US engine importer. You can break 400rwhp with heads and cam and intake easy. Depends on your power requirements.
Personally Id stick to a compatible engine to what you have now and look at block, heads, cam and intake depending on what power you want. (ie) decide on your rwhp and build to suit. If you want too much over 500rwhp (600bhp) then you will need to look at FI. FI will use less fuel at idle, but more under power than a stroker.
Live Stevie says Dart 225cc heads are pretty good and on an LS2 with say a 220/224 cam and fast intake should easily hit 400rwhp while passing emissions with cats.
AM04ARO said:
I am thinking the same.
Strangthen the LS1, change for a LS2 and sort or strengthen LS1 and do heads like a pair of darts.
Lots to think about.
Cam is probably the first restriction on a stock LS1 assuming your exhaust and intake is sorted, then heads. Cams need to be chosen to suit your requirements. They shape your power curve, you can have it low and flat, high and short etc. Strangthen the LS1, change for a LS2 and sort or strengthen LS1 and do heads like a pair of darts.
Lots to think about.
Stock cam has low lift and without changing the duration if you raise the lift you will gain airflow and lose nothing to driveability, (eg) my cai and rockers put down over 20rwhp more than the next NA LS2 with an aftermarket exhaust and tune, I still have the stock exhaust and my tune hasnt been near a wideband sensor or dyno yet, in fact timing is almost stock VXR8.
Airflow/mass is everything, a larger engine without airflow is a waste of money. Better to spend money on heads and cam, its much cheaper than a new engine... Unless you do both
Again, decide on your power requirements and build accordingly.LS1 heads are the same configuration in general as LS2 heads, so Alan if you do heads and cam in yours the parts are transferable to a new engine if/when required..
Anyway Im sure you guys posted this deliberately to wind me up.. again
Edited by ringram on Wednesday 27th August 21:54
Go forged which ever way mate. I think Roger has a spare LS2 now
I should have a spare soon as well.. Except mine will have the wrong crank sensor pickup (58 tooth)
Maybe check out US built shortblocks..
http://www.sdparts.com/catalog/lsgeniiigenivperfor...
Forged 6.2L anyone?
I should have a spare soon as well.. Except mine will have the wrong crank sensor pickup (58 tooth)
Maybe check out US built shortblocks..
http://www.sdparts.com/catalog/lsgeniiigenivperfor...
Forged 6.2L anyone?
ringram said:
MyM8V8 said:
Having been humbled at the dyno day and wings and wheels I have got to get more power, and fast. Whilst a supercharger is quick and convenient, being a compressed air engineer, I can't bring myself to fork out the £5000 they want for a simple roots blower. I was looking at a pair of L92 heads, cam, intake package which gives a fair old bang for the buck, but I've just been quoted £4595 for a hi power LS3 (480bhp) and another £759 for its ECU and harness.
Wondered if anyone knows of any issues with this as it makes the price of SC look stupidly high. Richard?
I would be dropping the motor in myself. I have asked the supplier about issues regarding whether the new ECU (type?) would be OK with the existing TCM and BCM. I know I would have to look at beefing up the trans (L65E)whichever way I do it. The new ECU would be needed as the LS3 uses a 54 tooth reluctor and my E40 uses 24 on the LS2.
I thought this package was very cost effective against the price of an LS7 at £11K for 505BHP and thinking about whats in it (a whole engine) against a simple blower, makes you wonder where these guys get their prices from????!!!! - I also get a complete spare motor and ECU for re sale or spare.
Best to keep your ECU TBH, just wire the sensors up the Gen IV engines should be the same EXCEPT you may have a 24 reluctor ring crank, the new engines are 58 reluctor (Hall sensor) therefore you may either need to change crank or change ECU. Both are semi painfull.Wondered if anyone knows of any issues with this as it makes the price of SC look stupidly high. Richard?
I would be dropping the motor in myself. I have asked the supplier about issues regarding whether the new ECU (type?) would be OK with the existing TCM and BCM. I know I would have to look at beefing up the trans (L65E)whichever way I do it. The new ECU would be needed as the LS3 uses a 54 tooth reluctor and my E40 uses 24 on the LS2.
I thought this package was very cost effective against the price of an LS7 at £11K for 505BHP and thinking about whats in it (a whole engine) against a simple blower, makes you wonder where these guys get their prices from????!!!! - I also get a complete spare motor and ECU for re sale or spare.
Why not consider a stroker shortblock? sdparts.com is a good place to look. Or maybe talk to Pete Knight for a local US engine importer. You can break 400rwhp with heads and cam and intake easy. Depends on your power requirements.
Personally Id stick to a compatible engine to what you have now and look at block, heads, cam and intake depending on what power you want. (ie) decide on your rwhp and build to suit. If you want too much over 500rwhp (600bhp) then you will need to look at FI. FI will use less fuel at idle, but more under power than a stroker.
Live Stevie says Dart 225cc heads are pretty good and on an LS2 with say a 220/224 cam and fast intake should easily hit 400rwhp while passing emissions with cats.
I think I have decided on a first upgrade depnding on your answer to the first one: Pair of GM CNC ported L92 heads (got to watch valve to piston clearance though.) with the GM L92 intake.
Rich, what do you think of this cam from GM:
LS Hot Cam Kit
Intake Duration: 219
Exhaust Duration: 228
Max Lift: 525
Lobe Seperation (deg): 112
OR THIS:
LS Stage 2 Camshaft
Intake Duration: 227
Exhaust Duration: 239
Valve Lift (1.7 Rocker): 551
Valve Lift (1.8 Rocker): 583
Lobe Seperation (deg): 108
You can change the reluctor, but they are very sensitive and only need to be like 0.01" out or something and you wont get a crank signal, which is bad, ecu wont know what piston is where etc. You would want to find someone who can do this properly, the crank likely needs to come out of the engine etc. Easier to buy a block with the right crank reluctor in it in the first place.
Cam one might pass if you are lucky and scrape through, cam 2 definitely wont pass emissions.
You guys looking at these setups should get a set designed to fit the stock engine with proper valve clearance etc. If you pick and mix yourself there is more risk of having to buy another cam or something because clearance isn't so good. My prior plans were somewhat thwarted due to P2V, but I had a get out of jail free by not using the higher ratio rockers I wanted to. Dont forget you will drop a point of compression with the L92's IIRC as well due to larger combustion area, which if you are LS2 and want to go FI might not be a bad thing.
L92 large valves will reduce piston clearance, (its IVO and EVC that determine if things touch or not) Darts have less than AFR which has less than TFS heads etc. TFS and ETP heads need roller rockers due to altered valve angles, plus normally longer pushrods.. etc. All adds up to reinforcing the idea of buying a kit off someone who knows how to set things up for heads/cam. Personally Id be talking to some yanks about this. A guy Ed Curtis from FTI or Bret Bauer from Bauer Racing will both be able to do an excellent kit with the right cam, valve springs, pushrods and any gaskets etc you need. No disrespect to the local lads, but the yanks have more experience with NA setups. Stay away from cams in the 23x range on LS2 or smaller stuff, A it likely wont pass emissions and B is likely to be doughy down low.
In a way heads are easier to choose, cam is a nightmare as it ties all the engine parts together, you need to choose them all to match. Again a good reason to get a kit
Cam one might pass if you are lucky and scrape through, cam 2 definitely wont pass emissions.
You guys looking at these setups should get a set designed to fit the stock engine with proper valve clearance etc. If you pick and mix yourself there is more risk of having to buy another cam or something because clearance isn't so good. My prior plans were somewhat thwarted due to P2V, but I had a get out of jail free by not using the higher ratio rockers I wanted to. Dont forget you will drop a point of compression with the L92's IIRC as well due to larger combustion area, which if you are LS2 and want to go FI might not be a bad thing.
L92 large valves will reduce piston clearance, (its IVO and EVC that determine if things touch or not) Darts have less than AFR which has less than TFS heads etc. TFS and ETP heads need roller rockers due to altered valve angles, plus normally longer pushrods.. etc. All adds up to reinforcing the idea of buying a kit off someone who knows how to set things up for heads/cam. Personally Id be talking to some yanks about this. A guy Ed Curtis from FTI or Bret Bauer from Bauer Racing will both be able to do an excellent kit with the right cam, valve springs, pushrods and any gaskets etc you need. No disrespect to the local lads, but the yanks have more experience with NA setups. Stay away from cams in the 23x range on LS2 or smaller stuff, A it likely wont pass emissions and B is likely to be doughy down low.
In a way heads are easier to choose, cam is a nightmare as it ties all the engine parts together, you need to choose them all to match. Again a good reason to get a kit
Weber Racing engines have some excellent deals on shortblocks etc at the minute, if thats the route you intended to take. They could also install whatever crank trigger wheel you wanted when building.
But for a n/a engine....unless going for much larger capacity, I see money on a shortblock as a waste.
For a FI setup, where you are looking to push harder, then its a sensible investment in terms of reliability, but again, dont expect any power differences from a forged setup alone. Its a reliability move first and foremost.
But for a n/a engine....unless going for much larger capacity, I see money on a shortblock as a waste.
For a FI setup, where you are looking to push harder, then its a sensible investment in terms of reliability, but again, dont expect any power differences from a forged setup alone. Its a reliability move first and foremost.
stevieturbo said:
Weber Racing engines have some excellent deals on shortblocks etc at the minute, if thats the route you intended to take. They could also install whatever crank trigger wheel you wanted when building.
But for a n/a engine....unless going for much larger capacity, I see money on a shortblock as a waste.
For a FI setup, where you are looking to push harder, then its a sensible investment in terms of reliability, but again, dont expect any power differences from a forged setup alone. Its a reliability move first and foremost.
I think you are right. Might as well go for more cubes and most of the yank kits are offered with the 24x reluctor fitted, been looking at an LS3 or LS7 variant. But for a n/a engine....unless going for much larger capacity, I see money on a shortblock as a waste.
For a FI setup, where you are looking to push harder, then its a sensible investment in terms of reliability, but again, dont expect any power differences from a forged setup alone. Its a reliability move first and foremost.
Stevie, if a short/long block is purchased built complete, what about the balance? Would I be able to fit any balanced uprated torque convertor, or would it need balancing to the crank afterwards? That wouldn't be a problem as I would probably pull it down before fitting anyway.
stevieturbo said:
If doing the work yourself, why not just throw heads and cam onto your existing ??? and Have it re-tuned.
A pair of Dart heads are excellent value, or some of Patriot's re-worked LS castings.
That along with a cam and other breathing mods, would be good value.
Looked at the patriots but they only offer the LS6 cathedral ported heads, so whatever they do are only playing catch up to the L92/LS3 heads with the bigger valves and ports. The only thing that worries me about the bigger ports is a possible reduction in inlet velocity?A pair of Dart heads are excellent value, or some of Patriot's re-worked LS castings.
That along with a cam and other breathing mods, would be good value.
Lots of discussion around that topic... head to hardcorels1.com for a few related threads. Bottom line is you can make more power while meeting emissions with the larger valve/port late model heads. You might currently still make more absolute power with the cathedrals, but you certainly wont do so cleanly, you need more duration and overlap.
ringram said:
Lots of discussion around that topic... head to hardcorels1.com for a few related threads. Bottom line is you can make more power while meeting emissions with the larger valve/port late model heads. You might currently still make more absolute power with the cathedrals, but you certainly wont do so cleanly, you need more duration and overlap.
Ah Ha. hi I have taken a set of RHS 210cc after market cnc heads with yella terra rockers,push rods,and comp cams 287 xer cam of a motor they are like new (infact have brand new valves) this motor made 594bhp-609 ftlb with a fast intake, they are very nice and i am only changing them because we are building it itno a full race motor, i want £1000 for the lot, tinker27@hotmail.co.uk or 07950399080 cheers craig
MyM8V8 said:
stevieturbo said:
Weber Racing engines have some excellent deals on shortblocks etc at the minute, if thats the route you intended to take. They could also install whatever crank trigger wheel you wanted when building.
But for a n/a engine....unless going for much larger capacity, I see money on a shortblock as a waste.
For a FI setup, where you are looking to push harder, then its a sensible investment in terms of reliability, but again, dont expect any power differences from a forged setup alone. Its a reliability move first and foremost.
I think you are right. Might as well go for more cubes and most of the yank kits are offered with the 24x reluctor fitted, been looking at an LS3 or LS7 variant. But for a n/a engine....unless going for much larger capacity, I see money on a shortblock as a waste.
For a FI setup, where you are looking to push harder, then its a sensible investment in terms of reliability, but again, dont expect any power differences from a forged setup alone. Its a reliability move first and foremost.
Stevie, if a short/long block is purchased built complete, what about the balance? Would I be able to fit any balanced uprated torque convertor, or would it need balancing to the crank afterwards? That wouldn't be a problem as I would probably pull it down before fitting anyway.
You should not need to re-balance anything when fitting such parts.
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