One for Ringram
Discussion
All this recent talk of the demise of cam manufacturers has got me starting to think that maybe my long term goal of s/c ownership was a)too expensive and b)a little simplistic and just "going with the crowd".
If i were to upgrade my cat back to full headers and go for a mild street biased cam (if thats the right terminolgy) and maybe say otrcai, what HP increase would i be likely to achieve? Would idle running be lumpy (and would that be a nice kind of lumpy?!) Would mot emissions be a problem? How much would it cost?
Having asked the HP question, I am not actually outright HP driven as top speed is not really something i get close to. Rather more torque and real world urge.
Cheers
Rob
If i were to upgrade my cat back to full headers and go for a mild street biased cam (if thats the right terminolgy) and maybe say otrcai, what HP increase would i be likely to achieve? Would idle running be lumpy (and would that be a nice kind of lumpy?!) Would mot emissions be a problem? How much would it cost?
Having asked the HP question, I am not actually outright HP driven as top speed is not really something i get close to. Rather more torque and real world urge.
Cheers
Rob
BATHVXR said:
Drew SS said:
Rob i just ordered a cam from crow cams in aus told them what i want and they sent me back the cam number and springs to match all up cost me 450 euro delivered
Cheers Drew. What are you expectations of it?
well i asked for a lumpy cam at idle and for a nice note and for mild street performance
i also said wasnt interested in doin the bottom end basically take the stock out and throw the new in and when thats done ill be lookin for a tune....im lookin for an orrsome over the raditer intake as well but cant seem to find a site where they sell them spoke to roger about that and he suggested if i go down the line of that he would recommend. That as its not maffless just have to clean and oil the filter reguarly
Drew SS said:
BATHVXR said:
Drew SS said:
Rob i just ordered a cam from crow cams in aus told them what i want and they sent me back the cam number and springs to match all up cost me 450 euro delivered
Cheers Drew. What are you expectations of it?i also said wasnt interested in doin the bottom end basically take the stock out and throw the new in and when thats done ill be lookin for a tune....im lookin for an orrsome over the raditer intake as well but cant seem to find a site where they sell them spoke to roger about that and he suggested if i go down the line of that he would recommend. That as its not maffless just have to clean and oil the filter reguarly
I ran a mafless cammed and 04 cv8 with an orai and it was no problem at all summer or winter.
The big fish did all the work and it was very good.
Lost a bit down the bottom but the mid range and increased upper range were very good and certainly was not a top end revvy cam set up. The ORAI made a big difference to teh set up and I did not run into the isues I thought we might running mafless and that was through the hot summer of 06 and doing a Bedford day in freezing winter. On the long straight at Bedford only a 993TT and Ultima could get past....M3s/Evos/Caterhams etc were up my chuff into the straight then it would just pull away - great.
Also gave it a real nice slightly lumpy idle that was deeper in bass and made it stand out. Lost the crackle, popsand bangs on the over run though. The last dyno I think had rwhp at about 390/395 and torque the same.
Roger will have the specs for the cam that was OZ sourced.
I miss mine bad...
The big fish did all the work and it was very good.
Lost a bit down the bottom but the mid range and increased upper range were very good and certainly was not a top end revvy cam set up. The ORAI made a big difference to teh set up and I did not run into the isues I thought we might running mafless and that was through the hot summer of 06 and doing a Bedford day in freezing winter. On the long straight at Bedford only a 993TT and Ultima could get past....M3s/Evos/Caterhams etc were up my chuff into the straight then it would just pull away - great.
Also gave it a real nice slightly lumpy idle that was deeper in bass and made it stand out. Lost the crackle, popsand bangs on the over run though. The last dyno I think had rwhp at about 390/395 and torque the same.
Roger will have the specs for the cam that was OZ sourced.
I miss mine bad...
MAF v MAFLESS has nothing to do with weather or any other aspect. Simply put the maf is easier to tune and more accurately tracks temperature out of the box.
However on the other side it measures air in a non linear fashion and is less accurate at low airflow hence why GM includes a mafless airflow calculation in the stock ECU and in fact blends the 2 values and leans towards mafless at low flow. In addition the actual Maf mechanism is a restriction. take a look you will see a mess and blocks and wires sitting in the airflow.
So anyway, ultimately Mafless and maff will output similar power, but mafless is more responsive to throttle transitions and has less latency of measurement. Also in GM apps maf can only ever read 512g/sec of airflow so any FI setups will max out the maf the tuner will have to "best guess" fueling based solely on throttle or rpm.
This is why Rapid use mafless for boosted apps. Simply because its the only accurate means of measuing airflow over around 450g/sec, as do many of the top US tuners and Oz ones.
All that means is that mafless takes longer and you need to work on the charge blending filters to track intake temperature. But you are rewarded on a NA vehicle with better throttle response and no restriction from the maf, this allows you to run a more direct and efficient otrcai.
Mind you Chris (donkvxr) has a Orrsom intake which retains the maf and looks pretty good.
As for cams, thats a different story. Personally if you want emissions then you need to stay small, but go large in lift. LS1 say 220/224, LS2 maybe 222/224 or so. I think Roger is experimenting with cams. Gareth passed with a larger cam than listed above. If you want to make sure you pass, go with a 216/220 or 220/200-114 basically 0 overlap at 0.050.
Power, I put down 386rwhp which is 66 more than a stock LS2. And at the time even beat Boss's supercharged VXR500.. just. That was LS1 with 220/224 otrcai but also had dart heads.
Cam only Id say 360rwhp or 370rwhp.
However on the other side it measures air in a non linear fashion and is less accurate at low airflow hence why GM includes a mafless airflow calculation in the stock ECU and in fact blends the 2 values and leans towards mafless at low flow. In addition the actual Maf mechanism is a restriction. take a look you will see a mess and blocks and wires sitting in the airflow.
So anyway, ultimately Mafless and maff will output similar power, but mafless is more responsive to throttle transitions and has less latency of measurement. Also in GM apps maf can only ever read 512g/sec of airflow so any FI setups will max out the maf the tuner will have to "best guess" fueling based solely on throttle or rpm.
This is why Rapid use mafless for boosted apps. Simply because its the only accurate means of measuing airflow over around 450g/sec, as do many of the top US tuners and Oz ones.
All that means is that mafless takes longer and you need to work on the charge blending filters to track intake temperature. But you are rewarded on a NA vehicle with better throttle response and no restriction from the maf, this allows you to run a more direct and efficient otrcai.
Mind you Chris (donkvxr) has a Orrsom intake which retains the maf and looks pretty good.
As for cams, thats a different story. Personally if you want emissions then you need to stay small, but go large in lift. LS1 say 220/224, LS2 maybe 222/224 or so. I think Roger is experimenting with cams. Gareth passed with a larger cam than listed above. If you want to make sure you pass, go with a 216/220 or 220/200-114 basically 0 overlap at 0.050.
Power, I put down 386rwhp which is 66 more than a stock LS2. And at the time even beat Boss's supercharged VXR500.. just. That was LS1 with 220/224 otrcai but also had dart heads.
Cam only Id say 360rwhp or 370rwhp.
When i mentioned the weather thing it was more to the point of keeping the filter clean i wasnt saying the weather would effect it. its hard enough to keep under the front of the bonnet clean so was thinkin well if its this is dirty the filters goin to cop it just have to clean it more reguarly..ringram do u no where i can get an orrsome intake from of the shelf
I had LS6 heads as well as the cam and the ORAI was dead easy to clean and needed it surpisingly infrequently.
Would have been interesting to see what a FAST90 would have done reckon it would have got over 400rwhp easy but hey ho.
Next time I think I would aim at a 7.0 replacement - I just cannot get the sound of the Corvette C6 racing car blasting round Le Mans out of my head...rolling thunder
Would have been interesting to see what a FAST90 would have done reckon it would have got over 400rwhp easy but hey ho.
Next time I think I would aim at a 7.0 replacement - I just cannot get the sound of the Corvette C6 racing car blasting round Le Mans out of my head...rolling thunder
Drew SS said:
When i mentioned the weather thing it was more to the point of keeping the filter clean i wasnt saying the weather would effect it. its hard enough to keep under the front of the bonnet clean so was thinkin well if its this is dirty the filters goin to cop it just have to clean it more reguarly..ringram do u no where i can get an orrsome intake from of the shelf
Got mine from here...........sales@otrcai.com..
ringram said:
MAF v MAFLESS has nothing to do with weather or any other aspect. Simply put the maf is easier to tune and more accurately tracks temperature out of the box.
However on the other side it measures air in a non linear fashion and is less accurate at low airflow hence why GM includes a mafless airflow calculation in the stock ECU and in fact blends the 2 values and leans towards mafless at low flow. In addition the actual Maf mechanism is a restriction. take a look you will see a mess and blocks and wires sitting in the airflow.
So anyway, ultimately Mafless and maff will output similar power, but mafless is more responsive to throttle transitions and has less latency of measurement. Also in GM apps maf can only ever read 512g/sec of airflow so any FI setups will max out the maf the tuner will have to "best guess" fueling based solely on throttle or rpm.
This is why Rapid use mafless for boosted apps. Simply because its the only accurate means of measuing airflow over around 450g/sec, as do many of the top US tuners and Oz ones.
All that means is that mafless takes longer and you need to work on the charge blending filters to track intake temperature. But you are rewarded on a NA vehicle with better throttle response and no restriction from the maf, this allows you to run a more direct and efficient otrcai.
Mind you Chris (donkvxr) has a Orrsom intake which retains the maf and looks pretty good.
As for cams, thats a different story. Personally if you want emissions then you need to stay small, but go large in lift. LS1 say 220/224, LS2 maybe 222/224 or so. I think Roger is experimenting with cams. Gareth passed with a larger cam than listed above. If you want to make sure you pass, go with a 216/220 or 220/200-114 basically 0 overlap at 0.050.
Power, I put down 386rwhp which is 66 more than a stock LS2. And at the time even beat Boss's supercharged VXR500.. just. That was LS1 with 220/224 otrcai but also had dart heads.
Cam only Id say 360rwhp or 370rwhp.
SO very roughtly, a decent (heaven knows what that implies) cam is worth about 40hp alone, without fancy heads, air intakes etc? But presumably at significantly lower cost than a basic nonintercooled s/c which must be (as per vxr500) worth about 100 bhp? I guess my real question is, what hp uplift coudl i expect with headers, otrcai, mild cam which preserves emissions compliance? and what would that be like to drive? I woudl hate to loose the pops and crackles on the overun.... but as previoulsy staed mid range torque would be cool.......And Roger - what would that cost?However on the other side it measures air in a non linear fashion and is less accurate at low airflow hence why GM includes a mafless airflow calculation in the stock ECU and in fact blends the 2 values and leans towards mafless at low flow. In addition the actual Maf mechanism is a restriction. take a look you will see a mess and blocks and wires sitting in the airflow.
So anyway, ultimately Mafless and maff will output similar power, but mafless is more responsive to throttle transitions and has less latency of measurement. Also in GM apps maf can only ever read 512g/sec of airflow so any FI setups will max out the maf the tuner will have to "best guess" fueling based solely on throttle or rpm.
This is why Rapid use mafless for boosted apps. Simply because its the only accurate means of measuing airflow over around 450g/sec, as do many of the top US tuners and Oz ones.
All that means is that mafless takes longer and you need to work on the charge blending filters to track intake temperature. But you are rewarded on a NA vehicle with better throttle response and no restriction from the maf, this allows you to run a more direct and efficient otrcai.
Mind you Chris (donkvxr) has a Orrsom intake which retains the maf and looks pretty good.
As for cams, thats a different story. Personally if you want emissions then you need to stay small, but go large in lift. LS1 say 220/224, LS2 maybe 222/224 or so. I think Roger is experimenting with cams. Gareth passed with a larger cam than listed above. If you want to make sure you pass, go with a 216/220 or 220/200-114 basically 0 overlap at 0.050.
Power, I put down 386rwhp which is 66 more than a stock LS2. And at the time even beat Boss's supercharged VXR500.. just. That was LS1 with 220/224 otrcai but also had dart heads.
Cam only Id say 360rwhp or 370rwhp.
PS the maff v' smaffless discssion is a bit of a diversion to me - as i understand it, two differnet ways of achieving broadly similar results which at my proposed level of tune is fairly irrelevant.
Edited by BATHVXR on Friday 27th February 22:42
donk r8 said:
Drew SS said:
When i mentioned the weather thing it was more to the point of keeping the filter clean i wasnt saying the weather would effect it. its hard enough to keep under the front of the bonnet clean so was thinkin well if its this is dirty the filters goin to cop it just have to clean it more reguarly..ringram do u no where i can get an orrsome intake from of the shelf
Got mine from here...........sales@otrcai.com..
Edited by BATHVXR on Friday 27th February 22:43
Boosted LS1 said:
MAF does account for engine wear and tear though as it meters fuel according to how much air is ingested. That said, it's maybe not the best for ultimate performance and probably a bugger to tune/compensate if you've gone beyond it's calibrations.
Correct, it does adjust. Mafless will adjust in closed loop but not open loop. (ie) It requires more maintenance over the life of the engine, though we are probably only talking a few percent. Hence why GM uses it. plug and play.BATHVXR said:
SO very roughtly, a decent (heaven knows what that implies) cam is worth about 40hp alone, without fancy heads, air intakes etc? But presumably at significantly lower cost than a basic nonintercooled s/c which must be (as per vxr500) worth about 100 bhp? I guess my real question is, what hp uplift coudl i expect with headers, otrcai, mild cam which preserves emissions compliance? and what would that be like to drive? I woudl hate to loose the pops and crackles on the overun.... but as previoulsy staed mid range torque would be cool.......And Roger - what would that cost?
PS the maff v' smaffless discssion is a bit of a diversion to me - as i understand it, two differnet ways of achieving broadly similar results which at my proposed level of tune is fairly irrelevant.
Hmm usually stock LS1 is I think 180rwkw or 240rwhp, full exhaust mafless etc, you can hit 230rwkw easy. Thats almost 310rwhp. Cam only you should hit 260rwkw or 350rwhp (Cam only means plus exhaust, intake etc too!) Heads and intake etc you should hit 400rwhp with an LS1 and the right parts, but thats about the limit.PS the maff v' smaffless discssion is a bit of a diversion to me - as i understand it, two differnet ways of achieving broadly similar results which at my proposed level of tune is fairly irrelevant.
Due to the labour involved cam only setups arnt that cheap. Plus unless you want to hit the tuning yourself they are considered bespoke so you need to add that on top. LS2 should be maybe 430rwhp with good bits and Im hoping near to 500rwhp with 7.2L and lots of extra's. But then thats it pretty much unless you go forced induction, which will take you as high as you want to go.
So parts wise cam etc is cheaper, but labour makes it almost more per bhp unless you do some/all the work yourself.
I think there are a few playing with cams now, even the SC boys have finally cottoned on that unless you change the cam you are wasting your time chasing optimal results.
PS: You are correct on maf v mafless, unless you are chasing every last bhp it shouldnt matter too much, if at all, depending on your state of tune.
ringram said:
BATHVXR said:
SO very roughtly, a decent (heaven knows what that implies) cam is worth about 40hp alone, without fancy heads, air intakes etc? But presumably at significantly lower cost than a basic nonintercooled s/c which must be (as per vxr500) worth about 100 bhp? I guess my real question is, what hp uplift coudl i expect with headers, otrcai, mild cam which preserves emissions compliance? and what would that be like to drive? I woudl hate to loose the pops and crackles on the overun.... but as previoulsy staed mid range torque would be cool.......And Roger - what would that cost?
PS the maff v' smaffless discssion is a bit of a diversion to me - as i understand it, two differnet ways of achieving broadly similar results which at my proposed level of tune is fairly irrelevant.
Hmm usually stock LS1 is I think 180rwkw or 240rwhp, full exhaust mafless etc, you can hit 230rwkw easy. Thats almost 310rwhp. Cam only you should hit 260rwkw or 350rwhp (Cam only means plus exhaust, intake etc too!) Heads and intake etc you should hit 400rwhp with an LS1 and the right parts, but thats about the limit.
Due to the labour involved cam only setups arnt that cheap. Plus unless you want to hit the tuning yourself they are considered bespoke so you need to add that on top. LS2 should be maybe 430rwhp with good bits and Im hoping near to 500rwhp with 7.2L and lots of extra's. But then thats it pretty much unless you go forced induction, which will take you as high as you want to go.
So parts wise cam etc is cheaper, but labour makes it almost more per bhp unless you do some/all the work yourself.
I think there are a few playing with cams now, even the SC boys have finally cottoned on that unless you change the cam you are wasting your time chasing optimal results.
PS: You are correct on maf v mafless, unless you are chasing every last bhp it shouldnt matter too much, if at all, depending on your state of tune.
I think that us FI guys `cottononig on` to cams is a little left field mate, bottom line is that untill you hit 500rwhp with blowers it just isn`t necessary, and therefore a wasteful exercise.
When you push further and rebuild engines for greater reliability it is of course sensible to select the best all round package at that time which would include an aftermarket cam.
I`ll always maintain that for outright plug and play, walk in with the money, walk out with the product a supercharger is very hard to beat.
If you are only going for a cam I would recommend a torque monster (old mans cam). You would be rewarded with better pulling power up to 5500 and excellent street manners. Forget HP that's what sells engines and fills dyno days with swinging dicks (yes me included LOL!), it's torque that matters IMHO.
If you can do the cam yourself it's a great option, if you have to pay someone to work on your motor, then Jez is right and the best bang for buck is the bolt on blower.
Personally if I were just looking for that little extra performance and could do it myself (no other future considerations in the background)I'd go for the little cam (big torque I think it's 210/218) and L92 heads and intake. You can buy that set up as a kit from Summit for about $2195 plus plus at the moment.
Bear in mind that a tune is important and if you have to pay for that it can be pricey. I think Rapid do it for about 350 squid but you'd have to check with them.
Oh, BTW my LS2 ute (which would have auto box losses on top) made 320rwhp with just a set of wortec headers and no tune.
If you can do the cam yourself it's a great option, if you have to pay someone to work on your motor, then Jez is right and the best bang for buck is the bolt on blower.
Personally if I were just looking for that little extra performance and could do it myself (no other future considerations in the background)I'd go for the little cam (big torque I think it's 210/218) and L92 heads and intake. You can buy that set up as a kit from Summit for about $2195 plus plus at the moment.
Bear in mind that a tune is important and if you have to pay for that it can be pricey. I think Rapid do it for about 350 squid but you'd have to check with them.
Oh, BTW my LS2 ute (which would have auto box losses on top) made 320rwhp with just a set of wortec headers and no tune.
Edited by MyM8V8 on Saturday 28th February 16:49
I agree up to a point although decide what you want first and then build a package to a achieve it. A super lumpy cam won't work with a blower but might be good NA for example, same with compression ratio. Torque gets you going but it's HP that gives top end. If you want to drive like a diesel owner than fine but the best solution is lots of both. Get 500+ hp at the wheels and you will be happy, the rest is for pub bragging. I'm now shooting for 700 at the wheels just to see if I can. Results soon.
Gassing Station | HSV & Monaro | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff