Done some research ref tuning and my heads going to explode!
Discussion
After torturing everyone last week ref the cam/heads (thanks to all that took the time to help its genuinely appreciated!) im now at the point of deciding which route to go down.
Unfortunately im working to a specific budget this year, what can I say car sales arent what they were last year, hopefully next year picks up and I will work with the plans I have for the car and just be able to do it.
At the moment im seeing it I have two options, regardless of which option the car is getting the tubular manifolds, 100cel cats and induction kit fitted its which to go with along with those:
Option A (comfortably in budget) - Cam kit fitted using standard heads, Water/meth injection kit, re-map to get it all to work - with this I can also do the xenon lights I want and possibly mate a start at the sound system.
Option B (Pushing the budget!) - Cam kit fitted, aftermarket heads probably from the likes of patriot to have a chance of staying in budget and a re-map to get it to work.
The worry I have with option B is if anything goes wrong or needs upgrading to go with it, such as fuel system which im not sure if I will be pushing the limits of with me running the Harrop 112 @ 6psi. If something did need doing its possible to find the money to do it but will be putting me in a position I dont want to be in.
What would you do and why? lol
Unfortunately im working to a specific budget this year, what can I say car sales arent what they were last year, hopefully next year picks up and I will work with the plans I have for the car and just be able to do it.
At the moment im seeing it I have two options, regardless of which option the car is getting the tubular manifolds, 100cel cats and induction kit fitted its which to go with along with those:
Option A (comfortably in budget) - Cam kit fitted using standard heads, Water/meth injection kit, re-map to get it all to work - with this I can also do the xenon lights I want and possibly mate a start at the sound system.
Option B (Pushing the budget!) - Cam kit fitted, aftermarket heads probably from the likes of patriot to have a chance of staying in budget and a re-map to get it to work.
The worry I have with option B is if anything goes wrong or needs upgrading to go with it, such as fuel system which im not sure if I will be pushing the limits of with me running the Harrop 112 @ 6psi. If something did need doing its possible to find the money to do it but will be putting me in a position I dont want to be in.
What would you do and why? lol
after_shock said:
After torturing everyone last week ref the cam/heads (thanks to all that took the time to help its genuinely appreciated!) im now at the point of deciding which route to go down.
Unfortunately im working to a specific budget this year, what can I say car sales arent what they were last year, hopefully next year picks up and I will work with the plans I have for the car and just be able to do it.
At the moment im seeing it I have two options, regardless of which option the car is getting the tubular manifolds, 100cel cats and induction kit fitted its which to go with along with those:
Option A (comfortably in budget) - Cam kit fitted using standard heads, Water/meth injection kit, re-map to get it all to work - with this I can also do the xenon lights I want and possibly mate a start at the sound system.
Option B (Pushing the budget!) - Cam kit fitted, aftermarket heads probably from the likes of patriot to have a chance of staying in budget and a re-map to get it to work.
The worry I have with option B is if anything goes wrong or needs upgrading to go with it, such as fuel system which im not sure if I will be pushing the limits of with me running the Harrop 112 @ 6psi. If something did need doing its possible to find the money to do it but will be putting me in a position I dont want to be in.
What would you do and why? lol
Unfortunately im working to a specific budget this year, what can I say car sales arent what they were last year, hopefully next year picks up and I will work with the plans I have for the car and just be able to do it.
At the moment im seeing it I have two options, regardless of which option the car is getting the tubular manifolds, 100cel cats and induction kit fitted its which to go with along with those:
Option A (comfortably in budget) - Cam kit fitted using standard heads, Water/meth injection kit, re-map to get it all to work - with this I can also do the xenon lights I want and possibly mate a start at the sound system.
Option B (Pushing the budget!) - Cam kit fitted, aftermarket heads probably from the likes of patriot to have a chance of staying in budget and a re-map to get it to work.
The worry I have with option B is if anything goes wrong or needs upgrading to go with it, such as fuel system which im not sure if I will be pushing the limits of with me running the Harrop 112 @ 6psi. If something did need doing its possible to find the money to do it but will be putting me in a position I dont want to be in.
What would you do and why? lol
Option B, that way you will have more potential for later on, plus some gigantic gains.
Magic919 said:
Cam & heads will give a decent uplift. I doubt that a 112 at 6psi will be stressing the fuel system or much else for that matter.
Why not look at chopping in the 112 for a Maggie though? They are producing some interesting numbers.
Why not look at chopping in the 112 for a Maggie though? They are producing some interesting numbers.
The change of charger for an intercooled TVS style is what wanted but thats going to have to wait till next year im afraid, but will happen!
Magic919 said:
In terms of s/c stuff S600 managed 500 at the wheels on a standard fuel system. If you can exceed that with a 112 and a 6 psi pulley we'll have a whip round and buy you a fuel system.
Lol sounds like a challenge, but one that I cant win
The 112 isnt intercooled so buggered on that front im afraid!Your boost will drop quite a bit depending on cam so intake temps will drop with option B.
Lower boost probably means lower paracytic losses through the blower as well as its not compressing much any more.
LS2 heads and cam you should be around 420rwhp easy, just depends if the 112 is up to the job of moving the air through ok you can probably find airflow calcs somewhere around for it and figure it out.
Lower boost probably means lower paracytic losses through the blower as well as its not compressing much any more.
LS2 heads and cam you should be around 420rwhp easy, just depends if the 112 is up to the job of moving the air through ok you can probably find airflow calcs somewhere around for it and figure it out.
ringram said:
Your boost will drop quite a bit depending on cam so intake temps will drop with option B.
Lower boost probably means lower paracytic losses through the blower as well as its not compressing much any more.
LS2 heads and cam you should be around 420rwhp easy, just depends if the 112 is up to the job of moving the air through ok you can probably find airflow calcs somewhere around for it and figure it out.
Lower boost probably means lower paracytic losses through the blower as well as its not compressing much any more.
LS2 heads and cam you should be around 420rwhp easy, just depends if the 112 is up to the job of moving the air through ok you can probably find airflow calcs somewhere around for it and figure it out.
Could I in theory easily fit a 9psi pulley in that case? Would you not recommend both the heads and cam whilst running the 112 charger?
Save up and buy a better forced induction system with an intercooler, or add an intercooler to your setup.
Whilst the above options may yield more power....they all do so with greater risk.
You need to consider intake charge temps/blower efficiency before just trying to ring the life out of a blower thats too small.
Whilst the above options may yield more power....they all do so with greater risk.
You need to consider intake charge temps/blower efficiency before just trying to ring the life out of a blower thats too small.
Edited by stevieturbo on Sunday 23 August 19:27
stevieturbo said:
Save up and buy a better forced induction system with an intercooler, or add an intercooler to your setup.
Whilst the above options may yield more power....they all do so with greater risk.
You need to consider intake charge temps/blower efficiency before just trying to ring the life out of a blower thats too small.
Whilst the above options may yield more power....they all do so with greater risk.
You need to consider intake charge temps/blower efficiency before just trying to ring the life out of a blower thats too small.
Edited by stevieturbo on Sunday 23 August 19:27
Intercooler is out of the question due to the cost of it. Was only being cheeky with the question of upping the boost, I know its probs out of the question but dont mind waiting till after next summer when will be doing the new blower with an intercooler!!
Then suffer what you have now.
Save your money, upgrade the fuel system, build a bottom end with decent rods and pistons....and carry out the rest of the work next year.
At least then you'll have a sound base to work from, and add the better blower. And perhaps heads/cam at the same time.
Meantime if you build the bottom end with a slightly lower CR, you could upp the boost more safely at present
Save your money, upgrade the fuel system, build a bottom end with decent rods and pistons....and carry out the rest of the work next year.
At least then you'll have a sound base to work from, and add the better blower. And perhaps heads/cam at the same time.
Meantime if you build the bottom end with a slightly lower CR, you could upp the boost more safely at present
stevieturbo said:
Then suffer what you have now.
Save your money, upgrade the fuel system, build a bottom end with decent rods and pistons....and carry out the rest of the work next year.
At least then you'll have a sound base to work from, and add the better blower. And perhaps heads/cam at the same time.
Meantime if you build the bottom end with a slightly lower CR, you could upp the boost more safely at present
Save your money, upgrade the fuel system, build a bottom end with decent rods and pistons....and carry out the rest of the work next year.
At least then you'll have a sound base to work from, and add the better blower. And perhaps heads/cam at the same time.
Meantime if you build the bottom end with a slightly lower CR, you could upp the boost more safely at present
Appreciate the advice, however we are running into areas of power that I wont be interested in as it will be too much for me. Have always said not doing the bottom end of the engine so keeping things within those limits. Happy to stay at 6psi boost this year and probably change to a TVS1900 thats intercooled so that it all runs more efficiently.
Rogers Monaro was stock and some suggest it ran out of fuel when it blew, so if you are modding yours you will need to be sure your fueling is ok too.
Problem is everything needs to be in balance if you up the engine specs you need to up the fuel specs etc. Also bottom end will be weak with what you are looking at.
If your power requirements are a reliable 500rwhp then you have a few options, most require forged engine parts.
Problem is everything needs to be in balance if you up the engine specs you need to up the fuel specs etc. Also bottom end will be weak with what you are looking at.
If your power requirements are a reliable 500rwhp then you have a few options, most require forged engine parts.
As Richard says, and Rogers car proved.
Seek all the power you want, but dont think for one second it will be reliable on a standard bottom end. Even more so when blowing in a lot of hot air, with the rest of the install being barely able to cope.
If the risk doesnt concern you, fit heads, cam, bigger blower...whatever. But at some point, a piston will fail.
Aside from labour costs...it needn't be expensive to fit a set of forged rods and pistons. Both would come to less than US $1000 for parts
New head gaskets are like $30 each, ARP studs are worth while, but not essential. Camshaft $400, and new cam gear for say $150 ( if even )
And TBH...there would be little need to touch anything else on an otherwise standard, but good bottom end. Sound advice might say replace bearings and oil pump etc etc, but unless the engine has big miles and shows any reason to replace these parts, then they simply dont need replaced.
After all...when fitting blowers, heads, cams with engine still in place...nobody has concerns about the oil pumnp, or bearings etc.
You would then have a good solid bottom end to handle some abuse, and it wouldnt cost the earth.
Hell, when I was stuck I threw together a 5.7 with old parts to get racing. Only expense was on oil, and head gaskets. Everything else was used bits I had lying about. It was actualy a great engine...ran easy mid 10's at 136/7mph.
Seek all the power you want, but dont think for one second it will be reliable on a standard bottom end. Even more so when blowing in a lot of hot air, with the rest of the install being barely able to cope.
If the risk doesnt concern you, fit heads, cam, bigger blower...whatever. But at some point, a piston will fail.
Aside from labour costs...it needn't be expensive to fit a set of forged rods and pistons. Both would come to less than US $1000 for parts
New head gaskets are like $30 each, ARP studs are worth while, but not essential. Camshaft $400, and new cam gear for say $150 ( if even )
And TBH...there would be little need to touch anything else on an otherwise standard, but good bottom end. Sound advice might say replace bearings and oil pump etc etc, but unless the engine has big miles and shows any reason to replace these parts, then they simply dont need replaced.
After all...when fitting blowers, heads, cams with engine still in place...nobody has concerns about the oil pumnp, or bearings etc.
You would then have a good solid bottom end to handle some abuse, and it wouldnt cost the earth.
Hell, when I was stuck I threw together a 5.7 with old parts to get racing. Only expense was on oil, and head gaskets. Everything else was used bits I had lying about. It was actualy a great engine...ran easy mid 10's at 136/7mph.
Power requirement are a difficult question to answer, my cars supposed to have 493bhp or whatever the VXR500's were meant to have, however the car has never felt that quick from the day I got it, it just needs a that bit more to keep me happy next summer when want to use and enjoy it, dont want to be having it sat in garages weeks on end when can be using hence the winter time is my fiddle time so to speak!
I would like a bit more from it but not silly amounts, well this year due to the budget I have to work with. The plan was to do a few bits to the top end i.e cam as a minimum along with the manifolds and air filter during this winter whilst the car is off the road so I can enjoy it during next summer, then when ive got the cash next winter do the bigger stuff so if that involves bottom end so be it, ideally if the top end was done this year would leave me to get on with the other parts only next year.
Im trying to avoid upping the boost and increasing intake temps and after reading improving the air flow through cams/heads reduces this to an extent it seemed to make sense, it also fitted in the budget hence have done the research into this route.
I would like a bit more from it but not silly amounts, well this year due to the budget I have to work with. The plan was to do a few bits to the top end i.e cam as a minimum along with the manifolds and air filter during this winter whilst the car is off the road so I can enjoy it during next summer, then when ive got the cash next winter do the bigger stuff so if that involves bottom end so be it, ideally if the top end was done this year would leave me to get on with the other parts only next year.
Im trying to avoid upping the boost and increasing intake temps and after reading improving the air flow through cams/heads reduces this to an extent it seemed to make sense, it also fitted in the budget hence have done the research into this route.
Question is...if you fit heads and cam now...will your blower be able to cope ?
You'll need to adjust pulley sizes, spin the blower even faster...and perhaps well beyond anything it can produce efficiently. So whilst boost may not increase...that doesnt mean the air wont get hotter.
If you built a stronger bottom end now, with slightly lower CR...then upping the boost alone would become safer. And you could enjoy a little more power now and next year, but safer in the knowledge you shouldnt suffer piston failure if tuned correctly, even if the fuel system etc isnt ideal
The fuel system could be worked on throughout the year as funds permit.
You'll need to adjust pulley sizes, spin the blower even faster...and perhaps well beyond anything it can produce efficiently. So whilst boost may not increase...that doesnt mean the air wont get hotter.
If you built a stronger bottom end now, with slightly lower CR...then upping the boost alone would become safer. And you could enjoy a little more power now and next year, but safer in the knowledge you shouldnt suffer piston failure if tuned correctly, even if the fuel system etc isnt ideal
The fuel system could be worked on throughout the year as funds permit.
A thread with a little info on what the blower may achieve...
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=12367...
hp = kw x 1.34
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=12367...
hp = kw x 1.34
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