LS3 - Next Steps
Discussion
Sorry if this has been discussed! I have an LS3 VXR8 which currently has a Wortec catback and an Orssom OTRCAI.
What's the best step to take next? I'm guessing headers and then cam? If so, are there any recommendations on headers to go for before the cam change? Probably need tuning too after the headers, but I've got something in mind for that already!
Also, anybody have any experience with the Pedders suspension from Monkfish? Currently debating whether to just get lowering springs or the full Pedders suspension.
What's the best step to take next? I'm guessing headers and then cam? If so, are there any recommendations on headers to go for before the cam change? Probably need tuning too after the headers, but I've got something in mind for that already!
Also, anybody have any experience with the Pedders suspension from Monkfish? Currently debating whether to just get lowering springs or the full Pedders suspension.
scarebus said:
45h09
How do you rate the Orssom intake? Did you loose the mass air flow sensor? Does it require a remap? Does it sound much better? Thanks
Had my ossram on for over a year now, throttle response much sharper + intake noise,(no remap) I kept the MAF and I'am having a blower fitted next week....................as for headers the ones on the r8 are fine, waste your money on new ones if you like, you will only get more noise..........I have a pedders coilover kit but have not fitted it yet...........I heard the lowering springs tend to make the r8 skip...............
The Orssom intake is quite good, like the fact it looks OEM. I kept the MAF on mine.
Performance wise, it's difficult to describe, just seemed to 'free' it up a bit more and more eager to pull through the revs. Sound wise, not a lot different to the standard intake, just a little more induction roar at low revs.
Am I best to forget about headers then and go straight on to the cam and then a tune up?
Performance wise, it's difficult to describe, just seemed to 'free' it up a bit more and more eager to pull through the revs. Sound wise, not a lot different to the standard intake, just a little more induction roar at low revs.
Am I best to forget about headers then and go straight on to the cam and then a tune up?
Edited by 45h09 on Monday 8th February 14:37
45h09 said:
So basicly, it's cam & headers together as headers alone doesn't make a lot of different and cam alone doesn't make a lot of difference? Things are never simple!
The headers (with a map) do improve it. Others may disagree.
Our packages are laid out in order to be simple to understand and offer an upgrade path if you choose to go that way. it will always be more cost effective to go straight to your end goal however.
on a side note, our camshaft package is fully emmisions compliant. This does mean the gains are modest, however. As for other cams, the choice is yours!
MadMaxHSV said:
Don't waste your money on a tune before the cam. I found headers on their own didn't really effect the tune. After the cam yes.
Headers won't gain much apart from better noise, but will compliment a good cam
What headers did you get? A good set of long tube headers should make a noticable difference. Headers won't gain much apart from better noise, but will compliment a good cam
300bhp/ton said:
MadMaxHSV said:
Don't waste your money on a tune before the cam. I found headers on their own didn't really effect the tune. After the cam yes.
Headers won't gain much apart from better noise, but will compliment a good cam
What headers did you get? A good set of long tube headers should make a noticable difference. Headers won't gain much apart from better noise, but will compliment a good cam
I got some gains, but I think most is to do with the remap from stock. I have only expected to see the real gains once my plans regards the rest of the engine come together
just de-cated my r8 ,the biggest resriction in the system for 130 pounds fitted,so if you dont mine the emmisions and you can find a friendly mot man ,its the cheapest way to get the best flow.no lights on dash,great extra bit of sound c my post with pic,s.headers way to much money for a few bhp.
45h09 said:
So basicly, it's cam & headers together as headers alone doesn't make a lot of different and cam alone doesn't make a lot of difference? Things are never simple!
What are your long term goals?If you ever plan to go FI (turbo or blower) then it really affects what mods you do now.
If you plan to stick na. Then how wild do you want to go?
The most common route for modding is do all the "bolt on" mods first. This is usually done as they are often easier, don't require you to open up the engine and can avoid the need to retune straight off. They also provide a good grounding and basis for when you step up to do the next mods such as cam and head work.
So the aim with most bolt ons is to 'free' up HP.
So a full exhaust system (catback) and improved mid pipe and either high flow CATS or de-cat (personally can’t see the point in a de-cat, only asks for trouble). Should free up some HP.
Maybe not a lot, most likely in the region of 5-10hp at most. But it should improve throttle response and of course make a great sound.
Next up are the headers. Now here’s your first big choice. While flow is important, it’s not the key to making power with a n/a setup. And in reality the stock headers are not so bad. What you want to do is actually generate more HP here by a thing called scavenging.
Scavenging basically introduces a 5th process into the combustion cycle. In order to do this you need long tube headers, because shorty and mid length headers won’t scavenge at an rpm range that you are likely to reach with a LS V8. I’ve heard reports that shorty headers only scavenge effectively at around 9000rpm!
With the LS1 and LS2 I’ve seen dyno’s of long tube headers making 10-20hp more. So there is a potential gain here.
But the decision you have to make is are you going to make use of it?
If you are not really chasing ponies, then shorty headers tend to be a lot cheaper. Shorty headers also work well with forced induction engines as these don’t scavenge in the same manner due to the intake charge being under positive pressure already.
David Vizard has written some fantastic articles and books on stuff like this and he’s well worth a read if you are interested.
So that’s the exhaust sorted.
Next up is induction, you already have some form of aftermarket induction kit by the sounds. So that’s all good and proper. The next stage will be the throttle body and intake manifold. Afraid I’m not up on the LS3 so don’t know specifics, but I suspect the general rule applies the same. A smoother wider TB and more efficient intake manifold will see gains.
On the LS1 and 2 it’s common to swap the 78mm TB and LS6 type intake manifold for a FAST 90/90 or 92/92 setup. You will see gains over stock with such a setup. But what you are doing is really paving the way for internal engine upgrades.
Lots of people will run “cam” only setups. But evidently if you have the money to improve the heads you’ll see more power.
The idea behind running a bigger cam is more power. But since power is function of torque at speed, most aftermarket cams (or at least the ones for big power) will shift the entire powerband up the rpm range. E.g. stock powerband 1500-5500rpm, after a cam 3000-6800rpm.
So the intake mods and exhaust mods will now pay dividends at higher rpms that you’ll now use.
Sadly it doesn’t end here. To make use of the extra rpms you really need to consider revising the final drive gearing (diff gears). Not sure what the VXR8 runs, Vette’s typically run 3.42:1 final drive. But with a cam you’ll want more like 3.9:1 or 4.10:1 final drive ratio to make better use of the new powerband.
Of course you could go for a much milder cam, but you then need to consider that you won’t see the same gains. And often (well my believe anyhow
) that a head upgrade maybe a better performance option than a really mild cam.In short there is no set order to do stuff. But if you slap a cam in before some long tube headers, you’ll just strangle the cam and the potential gains it could make.
Similar story with the gears, although it’s maybe more subject to debate on what is right or wrong.
There are other options too, like fitting electric water pumps. You’ll see claims of 7-15hp gains by doing this and it’s a fairly easy fit.
Changing pulleys (accessory pulleys) can also free up a few HP as an easy mod.
And lastly it’s well worth considering power adders like nitrous oxide. In terms of hp per £ spent its one of the best.
For between £1000-1500 you could have a setup which should be able to utilise a 150 shot, so about a 150hp gain. And it’s there only when you want it. A plus side is, if you sell the car you can remove the kit and flog it separately or fit it to your next car.
45h09 said:
Also, anybody have any experience with the Pedders suspension from Monkfish? Currently debating whether to just get lowering springs or the full Pedders suspension.
100% I'd say go for Pedders extreme Coilover XA and if you can afford the extra get the road response pack (poly bushes etc) done at the same time.Really transforms the handling! Roger the Fish will no doubt be able to help you with a price for all that.
I went from just lowered springs to the above on my Carbon VXR8 and it made a huge difference, especially after I increased compression damping on the back a little more than Roger originally set it too (IIRC, I ended up setting it to 15/30 on front and 20/30 on rear).
Edited by paramoreg on Monday 8th February 17:07
monkfish1 said:
45h09 said:
So basicly, it's cam & headers together as headers alone doesn't make a lot of different and cam alone doesn't make a lot of difference? Things are never simple!
The headers (with a map) do improve it. Others may disagree.
Our packages are laid out in order to be simple to understand and offer an upgrade path if you choose to go that way. it will always be more cost effective to go straight to your end goal however.
on a side note, our camshaft package is fully emmisions compliant. This does mean the gains are modest, however. As for other cams, the choice is yours!
do u give the camshaft figures out
drew ss said:
monkfish1 said:
45h09 said:
So basicly, it's cam & headers together as headers alone doesn't make a lot of different and cam alone doesn't make a lot of difference? Things are never simple!
The headers (with a map) do improve it. Others may disagree.
Our packages are laid out in order to be simple to understand and offer an upgrade path if you choose to go that way. it will always be more cost effective to go straight to your end goal however.
on a side note, our camshaft package is fully emmisions compliant. This does mean the gains are modest, however. As for other cams, the choice is yours!
do u give the camshaft figures out
No. Its our own cam which we have spent a lot of time and money getting right. Its good for N/A or with a supercharger and is totally emmisions compliant with a good idle and no loss of tractability. Its what most would describe as mild. On an LS2 its adding circa 30bhp over what can be achieved with just bolt ons. Should give you an idea.
But its as big as i would fit to my own car. Ive done the whole big cam thing. Its an outmoded idea and a quick way to spoil your car. Which is exactly what ive done in the past and have no intention of repeating.
But thats only my view! If you want a big cam, poor idle, high fuel consumption etc and be unable to pass an MOT, then a big cam is good.
monkfish1 said:
drew ss said:
monkfish1 said:
45h09 said:
So basicly, it's cam & headers together as headers alone doesn't make a lot of different and cam alone doesn't make a lot of difference? Things are never simple!
The headers (with a map) do improve it. Others may disagree.Our packages are laid out in order to be simple to understand and offer an upgrade path if you choose to go that way. it will always be more cost effective to go straight to your end goal however.
on a side note, our camshaft package is fully emmisions compliant. This does mean the gains are modest, however. As for other cams, the choice is yours!
But its as big as i would fit to my own car. Ive done the whole big cam thing. Its an outmoded idea and a quick way to spoil your car. Which is exactly what ive done in the past and have no intention of repeating.
But thats only my view! If you want a big cam, poor idle, high fuel consumption etc and be unable to pass an MOT, then a big cam is good.
The US emissions tests are quite different from ours so I've never found out exactly what will pass here and what won't. Thanks.
300bhp/ton said:
monkfish1 said:
drew ss said:
monkfish1 said:
45h09 said:
So basicly, it's cam & headers together as headers alone doesn't make a lot of different and cam alone doesn't make a lot of difference? Things are never simple!
The headers (with a map) do improve it. Others may disagree.
Our packages are laid out in order to be simple to understand and offer an upgrade path if you choose to go that way. it will always be more cost effective to go straight to your end goal however.
on a side note, our camshaft package is fully emmisions compliant. This does mean the gains are modest, however. As for other cams, the choice is yours!
do u give the camshaft figures out
No. Its our own cam which we have spent a lot of time and money getting right. Its good for N/A or with a supercharger and is totally emmisions compliant with a good idle and no loss of tractability. Its what most would describe as mild. On an LS2 its adding circa 30bhp over what can be achieved with just bolt ons. Should give you an idea.
But its as big as i would fit to my own car. Ive done the whole big cam thing. Its an outmoded idea and a quick way to spoil your car. Which is exactly what ive done in the past and have no intention of repeating.
But thats only my view! If you want a big cam, poor idle, high fuel consumption etc and be unable to pass an MOT, then a big cam is good.
The US emissions tests are quite different from ours so I've never found out exactly what will pass here and what won't. Thanks.
That will depend partly on how the tune is set up. But the main culprit is hydrocarbons.
Edited by monkfish1 on Monday 8th February 18:01
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