At what point does a Sagaris "copy" start to become viable?

[Zarkingfardwarks]

With Sag's pushing 60k and looking like that might continue onwards....at what point does a T car with let's say a 4.3 Power Engine and some plastic man magic become a 40-45k Sagaris??

The Tamora/T350 convertible and the Sag Targa from a while ago have got me thinking?

I also wondered at what point gullible fools will buy something that looks and sounds like a Sag but......isn't ?



Not that I'm looking to do this but the price differential for a jagged bonnet makes me wonder when someone else will!

Edited by Zarkingfardwarks on Friday 17th August 22:56

[RedSpike66]

Won't it always not be a Sag tho, and therefore, despite looking and sounding like one, it'll always be a T350 or Tamora with a different cloak on ?? The Verdi Green Sag has been up for sale for 18 months - Cat D - so different reasons - but nobody is interested in that one at £40k ish and it is a real Sag after all..

If the rumours are true that Smellyendski did made over 100 improvements to the Sag, build qaulity etc., and it was the last one of the two models out of the factory, then that's what people are prepared to pay for.. so would they just not be worth maybe a small premium over the donor car imho ??

[alex_gray255]

Interesting question to see how much a Sagmora(?) like the one John has would be worth. That would be a good comparator...

[FactoryPilot]

Personally, I wouldn't do this to a T350 - unless it was a smashed up car Cat C/D etc... in which case, you are rescuing a TVR, so anything goes!

As Sag's go up in value, it is inevitable that all the other models will follow suit, but I think the most sought after cars will be those that retain as much originality as possible. And to be fair, a T350 is a handsome car in its own right. I wouldn't mess about with one to the extent of creating a Sag 'recreation'.

Better to buy a smashed up Sag and spend some cash on that.

BTW: the lime green Sag in the classifieds was (maybe still is) available for £33k, but those crazy dutch seem to think by up-ing the price a few times, it will make it sell easier Apparently, it needs a fair bit of work still, plus it is Cat D, but if you got it for £33-35k, it might be worth a punt.

[Zarkingfardwarks]

FactoryPilot said:

Personally, I wouldn't do this to a T350 - unless it was a smashed up car Cat C/D

I also wouldn't do it to a Tamora- both are rare beasts but wasn't the Sagaris Targa actually based on a Tuscan ( common!)


If you look at the interior shots it's definitely a Tuscan base.

[Zippee]

Zarkingfardwarks said:

FactoryPilot said:

Personally, I wouldn't do this to a T350 - unless it was a smashed up car Cat C/D

I also wouldn't do it to a Tamora- both are rare beasts but wasn't the Sagaris Targa actually based on a Tuscan ( common!)


If you look at the interior shots it's definitely a Tuscan base.

If you're talking about Johns (Orange one) then it's Tamora based. Really not sure how you can call it a Sagaris Targa, it's a Tamora with a couple of Sag body parts bonded on. In the same way a 355 rep is still just an MR2 with a bodykit on it.
Valuewise, it'll still be a CatC/D donor car which will affect value, there'll be a lot of interest but I'd imagine few buyers for that sort of car - an owner doing this would do it because it's something they want rather than them trying to create more value.
Personally I'm not a fan of them, nothing wrong with the workmanship I just don't like the looks of it, doesn't quite look 'right' IMHO. I'd be interested to see how the Tam currently under build ends up though (the one with the 350 F&R).

[Hollowpockets]

Zarkingfardwarks said:

I also wouldn't do it to a Tamora- both are rare beasts but wasn't the Sagaris Targa actually based on a Tuscan ( common!)


If you look at the interior shots it's definitely a Tuscan base.

Nope not a tuscan at all, closer to the T350, the sagaris was going to be the racing version of the T-cars then because of the T400/T440R/Typhon the sag was softened to be a 'road going car' that could easily be converted to race... and has been by a few.

In the current climate theres no way id be paying more for a T350 or Tamora that had been modified to the extent that it looked like another car. If anything i'd be paying less than the donor cars worth. The value of these cars (in my opinion) is in keeping them as close to original as possible. If you heavily modify one its for your own personal reasons, dont expect to get money back for these modifications, the same goes for any make of car really.

and yes Ive seen enough evidence to suggest there are enough improvements (more than a jagged bonnet ) to the sag to justify the extra money, I had a T350 and drove a sagaris back to back, the improvement in handling was instantly noticable, it was also smoother, the build quality was miles apart (i had to re-build half my t350 myself), crazy looks and had more grunt. These improvements make them worth 10-15k more than a T350 alone, the extra money on top is purely down to low numbers and being desirable as the last and most wild looking road car they produced. There will never be another car like this produced, so I bought one.

So in answer to the OP question, its viable whenever you want to spend money making one, but it wont make it worth £50-60k if its not from the factory or all original parts.

[TVR_owner]

Zarkingfardwarks said:

With Sag's pushing 60k and looking like that might continue onwards....at what point does a T car with let's say a 4.3 Power Engine and some plastic man magic become a 40-45k Sagaris??

The Tamora/T350 convertible and the Sag Targa from a while ago have got me thinking?

I also wondered at what point gullible fools will buy something that looks and sounds like a Sag but......isn't ?

Good C Type, GT40 and Cobra replicas are being bought by owners of the original becuase they are considered to be too precious to use.

The replicas are all based upon something, but nothing that shares such a similar DNA as discussed above.

Build it and folk will buy it, what price will they pay, who knows. What it's worth in years to come - anyones guess.

[V8 GRF]

Hollowpockets said:

Zarkingfardwarks said:

I also wouldn't do it to a Tamora- both are rare beasts but wasn't the Sagaris Targa actually based on a Tuscan ( common!)
If you look at the interior shots it's definitely a Tuscan base.

Nope not a tuscan at all, closer to the T350, the sagaris was going to be the racing version of the T-cars then because of the T400/T440R/Typhon the sag was softened to be a 'road going car' that could easily be converted to race... and has been by a few.

I think you missed the point of the post you quoted.

There is a 'Sagaris Targa' and that was based on a Tuscan which is why it looks odd in my opinion as there's too much of the original car left which spoils the effect.

The Sagamora convertible was indeed based on a Tamora but with all the original body work removed that looks quite like something that TVR might have produced as a Sagaris convertible.

[ninetynine]

The sagora conversion is much more involved than just fitting a sag front and rear
A great deal of work has gone into development of the suspension as the sag track is
50 mm wider than the tam or t350 I am running ohlins shocks and have changed some of the
Mounting points the hope is to get a car that will handle as well as the sag if not better
I also have some plans for the engine when funds allow

[Hollowpockets]

V8 GRF said:

I think you missed the point of the post you quoted.

Yep sorry, didn't realise there was a converted tuscan, thought it was just the tamora one and he was suggesting the factory sags were tuscan based.

[Hollowpockets]

ninetynine said:

The sagora conversion is much more involved than just fitting a sag front and rear
A great deal of work has gone into development of the suspension as the sag track is
50 mm wider than the tam or t350 I am running ohlins shocks and have changed some of the
Mounting points the hope is to get a car that will handle as well as the sag if not better
I also have some plans for the engine when funds allow

Your car does look really good, did you need to make the arches wider to cover the wider track on the wheels? it almost looks like a full body swap was required to get it looking right. well done!

[ninetynine]

Used original sag front and rear ends so as per factory dimensions had to have bespoke wishbones and uprights

[Zarkingfardwarks]

I get that the Sagora, Tuscaris? Etc are "proper" one off Sagaris tweaks as it were but for the average non PH punter (like many many "40 something" sports car buyers the difference is the appearance. Without direct experience of a particular model who really would know a Sag from a "recreation" Most would say sideways exhaust and a jagged bonnet marks it out as "a unique model" just look at the huge sums spent on 406 coupes that look bugger all like a Ferrari - but people still pay over the odds. A rebodied T car would be pretty damn close to the real thing.

many people know TVR as a "proper" sports car manufacturer without knowing the actual model range at all.

[phoenixz]

Hollowpockets said:

There will never be another car like this produced, so I bought one.

Iv just arrived in america after a long flight and was catching up on the forums when I came across this?

Graham?...

Did you just stealthily buy a sag and not tell anyone?

Also did no-one else pick up on this?

Phoenixz

[Hollowpockets]

phoenixz said:

Iv just arrived in america after a long flight and was catching up on the forums when I came across this?

Graham?...

Did you just stealthily buy a sag and not tell anyone?

Also did no-one else pick up on this?

Phoenixz

Paul...

Yes indeed, but ive been away on hols and offshore for the last 3-4 weeks and unable to collect it.

Mr Braids sharp eye caught me out and I spoke to 'Overseas' before taking the plunge, other than that nobody knows yet so lets keep it that way at least until I collect it.

You do realise you are to blame for aggitating an itch that I managed not to scratch for 4 years by taking that nice red Sag past my house! LOL

When you home?

G

[phoenixz]

Not back till the 31st. Im so excited and chuffed, mostly because i'll have someone I can annoy and compare mine too

I wont say a word, but we have to go for cruise together when u get it

That's awesome news, common as muck now in aberdeen. They'll have to change the "fairtrade city" logo to "The Sagaris City". which one did u get? What colour? What plans do u have for upgrades(i know u won't be able not to)? How much did u manage to get it for?

Feel free not to answer any questions or just mail me them if u'd rather keep it quiet i'm just shocked and chuffed. I could see the twinkle in ur eye when I took you out in mine, but I didn't think u were serious about it

[TVR_owner]

Zarkingfardwarks said:

I get that the Sagora, Tuscaris? Etc are "proper" one off Sagaris tweaks as it were but for the average non PH punter (like many many "40 something" sports car buyers the difference is the appearance. Without direct experience of a particular model who really would know a Sag from a "recreation" Most would say sideways exhaust and a jagged bonnet marks it out as "a unique model" just look at the huge sums spent on 406 coupes that look bugger all like a Ferrari - but people still pay over the odds. A rebodied T car would be pretty damn close to the real thing.

many people know TVR as a "proper" sports car manufacturer without knowing the actual model range at all.

Are you suggesting that most 40 somethings dont have a clue, wouldn't know a real Sagaris from a "recreation" and therefore it's worth a punt to sort of con the unsuspecting?

[DonkeyApple]

TVR_owner said:

Are you suggesting that most 40 somethings dont have a clue, wouldn't know a real Sagaris from a "recreation" and therefore it's worth a punt to sort of con the unsuspecting?

If the maths worked out then I suspect there are people who would like a Sag shell on a Tuscan car.

I suspect there are also people who'd like a Sag body on an Astra diesel as well.

[Hollowpockets]

This one

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/maxx-waxx/L...

Its got the CR box and 3.91 diff, de-cats and a map tweak by TVR Power, 15k miles, good service history, good warranty, my fav colour and nice black/orange interior.

(Ive also looked up the 3 pre-owners posts on here back to 2006/07 and checked for use and faults, also spoke to TVR Power/Racing Green and MP supercars in Edinburgh who all worked on it and the only out the ordinary works iv found its needed are throttle bodies resealed adjusted and a throttle cable replaced) oh also found out the black lower door cards were originally trimmed orange to match the roof lining but were changed, cant decide which id have prefered given the choice though.

I like the raceproved cam cover/pre-oiler and the ACT bigger tail pipes (who else on here makes nice pipes? clive maybe?) but i don't plan to modify it as such.

Edited by Hollowpockets on Sunday 19th August 13:39