Discussion
What is it with people being so against Cat D TVR's? I think we've all heard people saying 'that's worth X because it's Cat D', or maybe you've even said/posted it.
TVR's have a tubular steel chassis with a composite body structure. As the marketing says, just like a race car. This makes them pretty indestructable. and even if the chassis does get bent, being steel, any half competent body shop can tweak it back with no negative effects (and it may even end up straighter than when it left the factory).
Look at actual racing cars, particulalry Formula Fords I would say, although designed slightly differently, and being an open wheeler, they have a similar construction and it's not uncommon to see those car involved in very substantial shunts including having all 4 wheels knocked off and even rolled, and the car can re-appear 3 hours later completely repaired and ready to win.
A regular road car with its steel or aluminium unibody is far more at risk of core damage during an accident and these are repaired all the time by beating and pulling them back into shape with hammers and then smothed over.
A TVR is so much easier than that because of it's fibreglass shell. This is basically plastic re-inforced with fibres, and is dead easy and cheap to rpair compared to steel. And proper repairs will restore 100% of the original strength to the panel.
Many of the TVR's that were written off as Cat D in the last 8 or so years seem to have been done so because they were 'uneconomical' to repair. And this was because there weren't at a bodyshop experienced in composite repair (most these days just bolt on a new panel and paint it), and because TVR charged over the odds for genuine replacement panels.
The point is that a TVR with a halfway decent crash repair is probably at least as good as how the car left the factory (the quality of original work is known to be a bit below perfect). AND Cat D is just a rating that means an insurance assessor (who has a quota and a timesheet to fill) has judged the car uneconomical to repair for the insurer during the 5 mins s/he spent with the car.
There may be plenty (I've heard of a few) TVR's that have been in big accidents but not had it recorded. Maybe it was done on a track and insurance wasn't notified. Maybe the car was assessed a bit differently, or with a repairer that offered a more reasonable quote. Whatever reason, it happens. So surely it's more desirabe to have a car that was once judged Cat D but has been well repaired, and has been well maintained and is in excellent shape, than to have one that has never been declared, but may be in poor condition, or may have been badly repaired by some incompetent spanner monkey after a small shunt that will never show on records, or maybe even a never crashed ropey car.
Many people advocate buying a TVR on condition, or milage or ownership history, yet the stigma of a Cat D rating, which I think is next to meaningless, is so pervasive. What's it about?
TVR's have a tubular steel chassis with a composite body structure. As the marketing says, just like a race car. This makes them pretty indestructable. and even if the chassis does get bent, being steel, any half competent body shop can tweak it back with no negative effects (and it may even end up straighter than when it left the factory).
Look at actual racing cars, particulalry Formula Fords I would say, although designed slightly differently, and being an open wheeler, they have a similar construction and it's not uncommon to see those car involved in very substantial shunts including having all 4 wheels knocked off and even rolled, and the car can re-appear 3 hours later completely repaired and ready to win.
A regular road car with its steel or aluminium unibody is far more at risk of core damage during an accident and these are repaired all the time by beating and pulling them back into shape with hammers and then smothed over.
A TVR is so much easier than that because of it's fibreglass shell. This is basically plastic re-inforced with fibres, and is dead easy and cheap to rpair compared to steel. And proper repairs will restore 100% of the original strength to the panel.
Many of the TVR's that were written off as Cat D in the last 8 or so years seem to have been done so because they were 'uneconomical' to repair. And this was because there weren't at a bodyshop experienced in composite repair (most these days just bolt on a new panel and paint it), and because TVR charged over the odds for genuine replacement panels.
The point is that a TVR with a halfway decent crash repair is probably at least as good as how the car left the factory (the quality of original work is known to be a bit below perfect). AND Cat D is just a rating that means an insurance assessor (who has a quota and a timesheet to fill) has judged the car uneconomical to repair for the insurer during the 5 mins s/he spent with the car.
There may be plenty (I've heard of a few) TVR's that have been in big accidents but not had it recorded. Maybe it was done on a track and insurance wasn't notified. Maybe the car was assessed a bit differently, or with a repairer that offered a more reasonable quote. Whatever reason, it happens. So surely it's more desirabe to have a car that was once judged Cat D but has been well repaired, and has been well maintained and is in excellent shape, than to have one that has never been declared, but may be in poor condition, or may have been badly repaired by some incompetent spanner monkey after a small shunt that will never show on records, or maybe even a never crashed ropey car.
Many people advocate buying a TVR on condition, or milage or ownership history, yet the stigma of a Cat D rating, which I think is next to meaningless, is so pervasive. What's it about?
agree with you chris i bought a noble from the insurance company earlier this year which they deemed uneconomical to repair there was no chassis damage just front and rear clams radiator and a couple of other bits i have repaired the car and is now perfect if not better than before some of these cars get bumped and the insurance company repair them no one worries then as they are repaired and no one will ever know!!!
I would have no problem buying a CAT D car. I would as with every purchase, consider condition, mileage, number of owners, any work the car would need and resale value.
If a CAT D car was available at the time I was looking for a particular TVR that ticked all my boxes for what I wanted then it would be down to price.
The price would need to reflect the value at sale time. HPI is what would devalue my resale..
If a CAT D car was available at the time I was looking for a particular TVR that ticked all my boxes for what I wanted then it would be down to price.
The price would need to reflect the value at sale time. HPI is what would devalue my resale..
Great point, well made. My T350 is a CAT D and have to say after spending a small fortune on finishing detail I can quite sfaley say it is put together better than most from the factory given the long list of work done on the interior re-trim alone and mine being a 54 plate was deemed one of the better ones.
Done well, a CAT D can be worth more than a factory build give the care taken to finish to a high standard, when the factory had a budget, as I believe mine has now been. Just happened to get a Power rebuilt 4.0l for good measure in the old girl just before her little fight with a central reservation and a bit of cracked fiberglass. One mans loss is anothers gain, as it were. Previous owner went on to buy a Sag with the insurance payout btw.
I have build pictures right through the process of bringing back to life, but do believe some may be put back on the road for the wrong reasons sadly. You takes your chances I say.
Done well, a CAT D can be worth more than a factory build give the care taken to finish to a high standard, when the factory had a budget, as I believe mine has now been. Just happened to get a Power rebuilt 4.0l for good measure in the old girl just before her little fight with a central reservation and a bit of cracked fiberglass. One mans loss is anothers gain, as it were. Previous owner went on to buy a Sag with the insurance payout btw.
I have build pictures right through the process of bringing back to life, but do believe some may be put back on the road for the wrong reasons sadly. You takes your chances I say.
My car is Cat D ,stolen left on bricks in Wales .The wheels were stolen ,dash slashed and ignition broken .
The non specialist insurance company decided to pay out ,the owner did not want the car back !
I think you have to be more carefull with non catted cars ,alot of them have been damaged and not reported ..
The non specialist insurance company decided to pay out ,the owner did not want the car back !
I think you have to be more carefull with non catted cars ,alot of them have been damaged and not reported ..
Chris, Could not agree more with your post.
I bought a Cat D repaired T350t, long story but basically I found myself shafted with a car with a wheelbase 40mm shorter on one side than the other, a drivers seat that would have acted as an ejector seat had I the misfortune to stop too suddenly and a few other 'niggles'. Somehow it had 'passed' an MOT shortly before I got it too! I had it inspected by Autolign and the inspector would not test drive it because it was too dangerous to be on the road.
Anyway, it only had 9,000 on the clock and after some investigating I had found that it had had the engine rebuilt by Dom at 5,500 miles due to an airbox rivet going awol. I ended up getting a new chassis put on the car and spending lots more money on trim work, etc. Just had a major service at X-Works and a new clutch and slave cylinder.
So I now have a 2005 car with a power rebuild, a new chassis, new trim, new clutch and slave and various other improvements, it ahs been Autolign inspected and removed from the register as a cat D to a condition inspected. In my opinion it is better than a standard 2005 car with no works carried out.
When I was having the chassis fitted I did see a couple of seriously damaged cars which were being put back together without insurance involvement, one Tuscan 2 due to trackday incident with no insurance cover. The bill for that one was over £20k and it did not get an inspection on completion.
So I think buy on condition as said above - but then I would wouldn't I?
I bought a Cat D repaired T350t, long story but basically I found myself shafted with a car with a wheelbase 40mm shorter on one side than the other, a drivers seat that would have acted as an ejector seat had I the misfortune to stop too suddenly and a few other 'niggles'. Somehow it had 'passed' an MOT shortly before I got it too! I had it inspected by Autolign and the inspector would not test drive it because it was too dangerous to be on the road.
Anyway, it only had 9,000 on the clock and after some investigating I had found that it had had the engine rebuilt by Dom at 5,500 miles due to an airbox rivet going awol. I ended up getting a new chassis put on the car and spending lots more money on trim work, etc. Just had a major service at X-Works and a new clutch and slave cylinder.
So I now have a 2005 car with a power rebuild, a new chassis, new trim, new clutch and slave and various other improvements, it ahs been Autolign inspected and removed from the register as a cat D to a condition inspected. In my opinion it is better than a standard 2005 car with no works carried out.
When I was having the chassis fitted I did see a couple of seriously damaged cars which were being put back together without insurance involvement, one Tuscan 2 due to trackday incident with no insurance cover. The bill for that one was over £20k and it did not get an inspection on completion.
So I think buy on condition as said above - but then I would wouldn't I?
Another reason insurance companies write stuff off is the inflated car hire costs. If they would have to pay for a hire car for the period it takes to repair some fibreglass and get it resprayed this adds a lot to the potential repair cost and most insurance companies just cut their losses.
Some insurance companies also avoid Cat damaged cars because they don't know how to value them.
Just another example of the broken insurance system in this country.
Andy
Some insurance companies also avoid Cat damaged cars because they don't know how to value them.
Just another example of the broken insurance system in this country.
Andy
What a refreshing topic. I bought my Tam as a CAT D last year (from a dealer) It had an accident when it almost new and has been expertly repaired. I and my well know TVR mechanic can find no signs of damage or repair. This year I have spent lots on having the engine rebuilt. next year I will probably have the interior completely re-trimmed, but no doubt someone will come along and tell me it's not worth a light when I came to sell it..!
Nothing wrong with a cat d if work carried out properly....but, the value will never be the same as an hpi clear car in similar condition. Not saying I agree with this but it's just the way it is? ....because a repair is assumed to be inferior to original despite this not neccessarily being so.
Edited by peteA on Thursday 25th October 20:12
D14 AYS said:
So let me get this right, a TVR is involved in a big accident, gets repaired and is "Better than new" yeah right! Cat D cars are cheap for a reason lads.
With respect, complete twadle! Cat D cars are cheaper because people who don't know enough about cars and mechanics make it so with ill informed comments. When my car left the factory it was far from perfect. Most owners implement improvement programs on their cars, its just that some are forced or a convenient time for a mass upgrade.
Another pertinent fact. If you had a Spectraflair or cascade tamora that got keyed in a carpark, that could be Cat D because of the costs of repair. But you could have a plain silver Sagaris that was involved in MASSIVE accident but because it's worth triple in today's climate, it could be economically repaired under insurance, possibly badly, and you would never suspect or know.
D14 AYS said:
So let me get this right, a TVR is involved in a big accident, gets repaired and is "Better than new" yeah right! Cat D cars are cheap for a reason lads.
With respect, complete twadle! Cat D cars are cheaper because people who don't know enough about cars and mechanics make it so with ill informed comments. When my car left the factory it was far from perfect. Most owners implement improvement programs on their cars, its just that some are forced or a convenient time for a mass upgrade.
Another pertinent fact. If you had a Spectraflair or cascade tamora that got keyed in a carpark, that could be Cat D because of the costs of repair. But you could have a plain silver Sagaris that was involved in MASSIVE accident but because it's worth triple in today's climate, it could be economically repaired under insurance, possibly badly, and you would never suspect or know.
because you can usually (if you bother to do your homework properly) pick up a never damaged fsh nice car either cheaper or for the same price as a damaged one will cost to buy and repair to a decent standard. Its not rocket science, who would want something thats been smashed to pieces for the same price as a car thats factory correct?
I have in the past repaired a number of cat D vehicles, it used to be economical to do so, but the salvage dealers all want far far too much money for cars needing huge repairs..
I have in the past repaired a number of cat D vehicles, it used to be economical to do so, but the salvage dealers all want far far too much money for cars needing huge repairs..
I think that if you really DO know what you're doing, and hopefully have evidence of the original damage (photo's etc.), then you can take the 'risk' with a Cat D car and do all that is needed to restore it to as good if not better condition.
At the end of the day tho, you simply can't remove that Cat D stigma, nor some insurance companies point of view, and market forces are such that it significantly affects re-sale value and number of people interested.
Having just seen the white Sag, I'm currently checking funds and the classifieds for a pea green Sag and a full white re-spray LoL
At the end of the day tho, you simply can't remove that Cat D stigma, nor some insurance companies point of view, and market forces are such that it significantly affects re-sale value and number of people interested.
Having just seen the white Sag, I'm currently checking funds and the classifieds for a pea green Sag and a full white re-spray LoL
Walford said:
my car was cat D because the fuel rail was smashed off
And a bloddy good job too! What, with the service bonnet cracked and the fuel rail broken that car is clearly FUBARed and you'll be lucky if it's worth half as much as a straight one when you come to sell. 
Cat D as it applies to TVR's in this country is a joke. And I know that not everyone here is a mechanical engineer, but I am certain from what I've seen, that aftermarket pannels and repairs are better quality than the original factory build pannels. Too many people seem to think that the 'factory knew best' and the 'factory made stuff to perfection' but from experience they really didn't as evidenced by the countless build quality issues and production faults.
The good thing about Cad D is that it lets you buy a car cheap and then spend the money saved on re-trim/paint/build to suit your tastes. especially important since there are so few cars in the marketplace that you can't always buy your first choice in specification. And you can feel smug that someone has insisted on paying more for a 'straight', factory built yet inferior car.
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