Sagaris - so how've you found them?
Discussion
So, Sagaris owners, please tell us what you think so far? Clearly some of you will still be running in and not hooning yet, but I'm seriously thinking about trading in my Tuscan for one and would be interested in any and all impressions, both positive and negative.
In particular:
(i) how do the performance and handling compare to the Tuscan (for those who have owned both)?
(ii) do you find the hatch boot more or less useful than the Tuscan's deep boot?
(iii) any reliability gripes or electrical faults etc yet?
(iv) is the bonnet OK?
(v) anything else you think would be of interest.
Looking forward to hearing from you...
Matt
In particular:
(i) how do the performance and handling compare to the Tuscan (for those who have owned both)?
(ii) do you find the hatch boot more or less useful than the Tuscan's deep boot?
(iii) any reliability gripes or electrical faults etc yet?
(iv) is the bonnet OK?
(v) anything else you think would be of interest.
Looking forward to hearing from you...
Matt
I went from a 2002 Tuscan to a Sagaris
(i) Noticeably quicker to 130, probably about the same 130 to 150, above 150 you can really feel the aerodynamics sucking it to the floor but also reducing its acceleration. I suspect that flat out it won’t be much quicker than a Tuscan. With the close ratio gearbox option allowing 60 in 1st and 100 in 2nd the Sagaris is fantastic for A road overtaking. The handling is massively better than the Tuscan and you can accelerate harder without the back end wiggling everywhere. It is much, much faster point to point than a Tuscan.
(ii) The Sagaris boot is noticeably smaller than the Tuscan’s and things tend to slide around in it a lot as it’s flat and shallow rather than narrow and deep. The Tuscan boot is more practical IMHO.
(iii) Loads of little ones: leaking windscreen, oil pressure sender (x 3), paintwork blemishes, synchromesh on 5th, etc. Electrics all working perfectly so far. Mine’s at the factory at the moment being sorted out.
(iv) The bonnet catches in front of the windscreen had a nasty habit of undoing themselves at 130+. Silverstone TVR and myself cured this by replacing them with bolts as a short term solution. The factory say they are going to replace them with something better. No problems with the front catches on the main bonnet so far, factory say they will be modifying these as well to be on the safe side. The access bonnet lifts rather a lot at speed, I’m waiting to see if the factory does anything about this while they have the car.
(v) Despite the niggles it feels much more solid than my Tuscan with far fewer rattles. Engine is much smoother and happier when started from cold. The performance and handling is on another level to that of the Tuscan. If you can live with a very slight drop in practicality (boot space and ground clearance) I would definitely recommend it.
Aircon is essential if you don’t want to drive a mobile sauna. I’ve got a loan T350C at the moment and have hardly used the aircon at all. The Sagaris engine either puts out masses more heat or there is some difference in the way heat gets into the cabin, as I need the aircon on most of the time. Also get the CR gearbox, it really is worth it. You notice the difference even more when you get back into a car with a standard ‘box.
(i) Noticeably quicker to 130, probably about the same 130 to 150, above 150 you can really feel the aerodynamics sucking it to the floor but also reducing its acceleration. I suspect that flat out it won’t be much quicker than a Tuscan. With the close ratio gearbox option allowing 60 in 1st and 100 in 2nd the Sagaris is fantastic for A road overtaking. The handling is massively better than the Tuscan and you can accelerate harder without the back end wiggling everywhere. It is much, much faster point to point than a Tuscan.
(ii) The Sagaris boot is noticeably smaller than the Tuscan’s and things tend to slide around in it a lot as it’s flat and shallow rather than narrow and deep. The Tuscan boot is more practical IMHO.
(iii) Loads of little ones: leaking windscreen, oil pressure sender (x 3), paintwork blemishes, synchromesh on 5th, etc. Electrics all working perfectly so far. Mine’s at the factory at the moment being sorted out.
(iv) The bonnet catches in front of the windscreen had a nasty habit of undoing themselves at 130+. Silverstone TVR and myself cured this by replacing them with bolts as a short term solution. The factory say they are going to replace them with something better. No problems with the front catches on the main bonnet so far, factory say they will be modifying these as well to be on the safe side. The access bonnet lifts rather a lot at speed, I’m waiting to see if the factory does anything about this while they have the car.
(v) Despite the niggles it feels much more solid than my Tuscan with far fewer rattles. Engine is much smoother and happier when started from cold. The performance and handling is on another level to that of the Tuscan. If you can live with a very slight drop in practicality (boot space and ground clearance) I would definitely recommend it.
Aircon is essential if you don’t want to drive a mobile sauna. I’ve got a loan T350C at the moment and have hardly used the aircon at all. The Sagaris engine either puts out masses more heat or there is some difference in the way heat gets into the cabin, as I need the aircon on most of the time. Also get the CR gearbox, it really is worth it. You notice the difference even more when you get back into a car with a standard ‘box.
Very helpful indeed, thanks. I must say it's the little niggles (I usually wait for 6 or 8 of them to combine before taking the car in) that tend to get me down. Is your Sagaris a pre-Smolenski quality control one or is that a myth?
Otherwise sounds great. I need to be able to transport rifles and kit which is why boot practicality is a big deal to me. But I think I could live with it.
Intrigued re: the CRG. If you can do 60 in 1st, does that mean 0-30 acceleration is slower? But that it's more than made up for by the lack of a need to change gear?
Still very interested in what everyone else has to say, too.
Otherwise sounds great. I need to be able to transport rifles and kit which is why boot practicality is a big deal to me. But I think I could live with it.
Intrigued re: the CRG. If you can do 60 in 1st, does that mean 0-30 acceleration is slower? But that it's more than made up for by the lack of a need to change gear?
Still very interested in what everyone else has to say, too.
why not go and drive one!!
personally I came from 03 tuscan S, the sagaris i feel is a totally differnt car in the way it handles, which is the most important thing for me. always seemed to be waiting for an accident to happen in the tusc, it just seemed a bit jittery on the twisty stuff where the sagaris just fells at home
not saying the tusc was crap indeed i had no trouble with it at all only the doors needed adjusting a couple of times
had no probs with my sagaris except 1 oil pressure switch, and window sill rubber oh and one rear light was misting but no electrical probs
the probs with the service bonnet have been sorted with a fix!! from tvr, in the form of a kit which is with my dealer. Im waiting to book mine in when the elusive ali door trim panels come in
reference boot ive managed to get a full set of golf clubs in and trolley but as said before not the same room as the tuscan but you do have a cover/parcle shelf which operates on a roller system which seems to keep things in place
not convinced with cr box may be if you did a lot of track work
if you can put up with the hords of people trying to get a pic of you on there mobile i say do it you wont be dissapointed.
sean
>> Edited by fkn on Tuesday 26th July 15:15
>> Edited by fkn on Tuesday 26th July 15:19
>> Edited by fkn on Tuesday 26th July 15:23
personally I came from 03 tuscan S, the sagaris i feel is a totally differnt car in the way it handles, which is the most important thing for me. always seemed to be waiting for an accident to happen in the tusc, it just seemed a bit jittery on the twisty stuff where the sagaris just fells at home
not saying the tusc was crap indeed i had no trouble with it at all only the doors needed adjusting a couple of times
had no probs with my sagaris except 1 oil pressure switch, and window sill rubber oh and one rear light was misting but no electrical probs
the probs with the service bonnet have been sorted with a fix!! from tvr, in the form of a kit which is with my dealer. Im waiting to book mine in when the elusive ali door trim panels come in
reference boot ive managed to get a full set of golf clubs in and trolley but as said before not the same room as the tuscan but you do have a cover/parcle shelf which operates on a roller system which seems to keep things in place
not convinced with cr box may be if you did a lot of track work
if you can put up with the hords of people trying to get a pic of you on there mobile i say do it you wont be dissapointed.
sean
>> Edited by fkn on Tuesday 26th July 15:15
>> Edited by fkn on Tuesday 26th July 15:19
>> Edited by fkn on Tuesday 26th July 15:23
charltm said:
Very helpful indeed, thanks. I must say it's the little niggles (I usually wait for 6 or 8 of them to combine before taking the car in) that tend to get me down. Is your Sagaris a pre-Smolenski quality control one or is that a myth?
Mine is a late May car. Most of the problems (apart from the paint) probably would probably have been invisible to a quality control person as they developed after it left the factory.
charltm said:
Intrigued re: the CRG. If you can do 60 in 1st, does that mean 0-30 acceleration is slower? But that it's more than made up for by the lack of a need to change gear?
Exactly! The ability to go from 10 to 100 in one gear is great, although I normally change up at about 90-95 as the torque drops off. If you do a lot of flat out A and B road driving where rapid overtaking ability is necessary the CR ‘box is really useful. If you get stuck behind something doing 75 you can change down to 2nd and go past very fast indeed! Also, as first is a higher gear you get slightly less wheel spin when you accelerate hard, which may help make up for the theoretically slower 0-30 time.
TSS said:
Exactly! The ability to go from 10 to 100 in one gear is great, although I normally change up at about 90-95 as the torque drops off. If you do a lot of flat out A and B road driving where rapid overtaking ability is necessary the CR ‘box is really useful. If you get stuck behind something doing 75 you can change down to 2nd and go past very fast indeed! Also, as first is a higher gear you get slightly less wheel spin when you accelerate hard, which may help make up for the theoretically slower 0-30 time.
I must be missing something but what the hell are you doing using first upto 60odd mph???
As my father used to say...every 10mph in first and you take 1000 miles off the engine life. First rule you learn about looking after your engine is change out of first as soon as possible! Even in modern cars with numpty engines I still never go about 2k rpm in first, ever!
charltm said:
racing, perhaps? no harm in the occasional blast; I doubt he does it every time he drives at 60!
Correct again. I said the car has the ability to do 60 in 1st, not that I necessarily do 60 in first (driving around at 60 in first would cost a lot in petrol
). As with 2nd it’s normally better to change a little bit before as the torque drops off. Although there's no point buying a CR box if you’re not going to use it.DJC said:
Exactly! The ability to go from 10 to 100 in one gear is great, although I normally change up at about 90-95 as the torque drops off. If you do a lot of flat out A and B road driving where rapid overtaking ability is necessary the CR ‘box is really useful. If you get stuck behind something doing 75 you can change down to 2nd and go past very fast indeed! Also, as first is a higher gear you get slightly less wheel spin when you accelerate hard, which may help make up for the theoretically slower 0-30 time.
I must be missing something but what the hell are you doing using first upto 60odd mph???
As my father used to say...every 10mph in first and you take 1000 miles off the engine life. First rule you learn about looking after your engine is change out of first as soon as possible! Even in modern cars with numpty engines I still never go about 2k rpm in first, ever!
First rule you learn about running in engines is not to put them under unnecessary load - that means avoiding the extremes of the rev range both at the top and the bottom. Changing too early into 2nd up a gradient for example will creat just as much unnecessary wear on the components as changing too late.
TheArb said:
TSS said:
Exactly! The ability to go from 10 to 100 in one gear is great, although I normally change up at about 90-95 as the torque drops off. If you do a lot of flat out A and B road driving where rapid overtaking ability is necessary the CR ‘box is really useful. If you get stuck behind something doing 75 you can change down to 2nd and go past very fast indeed! Also, as first is a higher gear you get slightly less wheel spin when you accelerate hard, which may help make up for the theoretically slower 0-30 time.
I must be missing something but what the hell are you doing using first upto 60odd mph???
As my father used to say...every 10mph in first and you take 1000 miles off the engine life. First rule you learn about looking after your engine is change out of first as soon as possible! Even in modern cars with numpty engines I still never go about 2k rpm in first, ever!
First rule you learn about running in engines is not to put them under unnecessary load - that means avoiding the extremes of the rev range both at the top and the bottom. Changing too early into 2nd up a gradient for example will creat just as much unnecessary wear on the components as changing too late.
Change upto 2nd at about 1k rpm and unless you are looking at a 60 degree slope it will not put your engine under undue stress.
Either way lads its your Speed Six, so your problem when they blow. Me? Ill be sticking to the traditional methods. Mostly that involves going nowhere near a track, the rev limiter and changing out of first before 2k rpm.
DJC said:Why - what's so special about first gear?
I must be missing something but what the hell are you doing using first upto 60odd mph???
As my father used to say...every 10mph in first and you take 1000 miles off the engine life. First rule you learn about looking after your engine is change out of first as soon as possible! Even in modern cars with numpty engines I still never go about 2k rpm in first, ever!
DJC said:
Change upto 2nd at about 1k rpm and unless you are looking at a 60 degree slope it will not put your engine under undue stress.
Either way lads its your Speed Six, so your problem when they blow. Me? Ill be sticking to the traditional methods. Mostly that involves going nowhere near a track, the rev limiter and changing out of first before 2k rpm.
Nope. Fraid not lad. I'll be sticking to the sound practices - avoiding putting the engine under strain. Common sense. Boring but simple. As Dominic as TVR Power advised and a fellow racing driver confirmed. I don't know where traditional came from, I don't see a reference to an authority. Traditional to me means burning stakes at witches or dumping them in the stream to see if they float. Very traditional I'm sure.
One fact you have correct is that is indeed my speed six, I don't need reminding - but thanks! And I have no intention of changing at 1k, I might do in a V8 happy in that range but I have no intention of doing so in an engine that revs from 600 to 7500 RPM. Thanks for the univited 'advice' but I'll pass. Lad.
TheArb said:
DJC said:
Change upto 2nd at about 1k rpm and unless you are looking at a 60 degree slope it will not put your engine under undue stress.
Either way lads its your Speed Six, so your problem when they blow. Me? Ill be sticking to the traditional methods. Mostly that involves going nowhere near a track, the rev limiter and changing out of first before 2k rpm.
Nope. Fraid not lad. I'll be sticking to the sound practices - avoiding putting the engine under strain. Common sense. Boring but simple. As Dominic as TVR Power advised and a fellow racing driver confirmed. I don't know where traditional came from, I don't see a reference to an authority. Traditional to me means burning stakes at witches or dumping them in the stream to see if they float. Very traditional I'm sure.
One fact you have correct is that is indeed my speed six, I don't need reminding - but thanks! And I have no intention of changing at 1k, I might do in a V8 happy in that range but I have no intention of doing so in an engine that revs from 600 to 7500 RPM. Thanks for the univited 'advice' but I'll pass. Lad.
Sound practice always *has* been changing out of first as soon as is reasonable. No road engine will be under undue stress from 1-2k rpm in 2nd. Screaming upto 5 or 6k rpm in 1st however is not sound practice, never has been sound practice and I cant believe Dominic as a fellow engineer would ever advise that it was. Traditional comes from having to employ mechanical sympathy back in the days when engines were not as supposedly robust as today. Given the alledged lack of robustness the S6 is supposed to suffer from, employing a higher than usual degree of mechanical sympathy doesnt just strike me as common sense but de rigeur! But hey, you're a racing driver, I am a mere engineer, so what do I know?
Mechanical sympathy definitely means no labouring in a gear too high. Squeezing the throttle in 4th at 2000revs is much worse than 2nd gear at 4000 revs, especially during the break in period. Every car manual I've ever read said that labouring is the worst thing for a new engine.
Engines need to be revved to make everything work properly. When properly warm and run-in it does no end of good to give it a good work out. Just compare how a car feels after a long motorway journey to a slow crawl across London. That goes especially for the speed six, an engine designed with racing in mind.
Having run a Sagaris with a CR box I've had to make adjustments for how I use the gears. Like DJC I've always avoided first gear in all my cars. Flooring it in first always seemed so brutal on all the components of a really fast car and it's very hard to change up without hitting the limiter.
But I have to say that the CR box makes things a little different. First is so much taller than standard that it's worse in traffic, needs a bit more clutch to pull away and it really is a proper driving gear, not a poxy town gear like you get in most cars ('fast' ones included). 0-30 probably is slower than standard but it does make up for it against the clock by not needing a gear change. I still haven't got out of my old habits but a lot of times I'm in second when I should be in first. It may only have 5 gears but at least they are all usable gears with the CR box. I wasn't sure about it when I first got it but it's a great option. DJC if you're sticking to your guns about what your old man said then I'd stick to the standard box and save the money.
My old man still rattles on about 'jaguar said you should never try the full speed of any car until 6000 miles'. He's stuck to it ever since. I always thought how anachronistic and balls acheing of him until I noticed in the tvr manual - the speed six doesn't get fully synthetic oil til 6000 miles.... Looks like there's still a little running in to be done then...!
Engines need to be revved to make everything work properly. When properly warm and run-in it does no end of good to give it a good work out. Just compare how a car feels after a long motorway journey to a slow crawl across London. That goes especially for the speed six, an engine designed with racing in mind.
Having run a Sagaris with a CR box I've had to make adjustments for how I use the gears. Like DJC I've always avoided first gear in all my cars. Flooring it in first always seemed so brutal on all the components of a really fast car and it's very hard to change up without hitting the limiter.
But I have to say that the CR box makes things a little different. First is so much taller than standard that it's worse in traffic, needs a bit more clutch to pull away and it really is a proper driving gear, not a poxy town gear like you get in most cars ('fast' ones included). 0-30 probably is slower than standard but it does make up for it against the clock by not needing a gear change. I still haven't got out of my old habits but a lot of times I'm in second when I should be in first. It may only have 5 gears but at least they are all usable gears with the CR box. I wasn't sure about it when I first got it but it's a great option. DJC if you're sticking to your guns about what your old man said then I'd stick to the standard box and save the money.
My old man still rattles on about 'jaguar said you should never try the full speed of any car until 6000 miles'. He's stuck to it ever since. I always thought how anachronistic and balls acheing of him until I noticed in the tvr manual - the speed six doesn't get fully synthetic oil til 6000 miles.... Looks like there's still a little running in to be done then...!
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