Discussion
Hi,
I'm productive on the posts this morning!
I was out on the A34 last night in Wilmslow just taking note of revs / mph whilst my speedo was working when I noticed a scooby attempting to mate with the back of my car - it was that close.
Put my foot down and was v.impressed at the way the car despatched it. This went on through several roundabouts and straights. I'd forgotten just quick the car is.....
Anyway, point is I didn't feel confident in pushing the car too much around the roundabouts. It's handling in general really does not inspire confidence. I'm sure my Clio 172 could comfortably despatch it on twisty country roads and roundabouts. I'm even more confident about the handling of my MG Midget at the moment!
It's not a grip thing, just the way it reacts, seemingly very unpredictably, lurching on occasion (like sudden weight transfer) requiring winding off of lock mid corner. Some bends it just seems to go around fine and you feel you could have carried a lot more speed through them. It's this unpredictable nature that concerns me when thinking about speed to commit to a corner.
The car is currently running 26psi all round on 18" wheels with toyo proxies that are about 2000 miles old.
Should it be like this? I realise I've only had the car for a few months but it just doesn't feel consistent in the way it handles.
Thanks in advance.
I'm productive on the posts this morning!
I was out on the A34 last night in Wilmslow just taking note of revs / mph whilst my speedo was working when I noticed a scooby attempting to mate with the back of my car - it was that close.
Put my foot down and was v.impressed at the way the car despatched it. This went on through several roundabouts and straights. I'd forgotten just quick the car is.....
Anyway, point is I didn't feel confident in pushing the car too much around the roundabouts. It's handling in general really does not inspire confidence. I'm sure my Clio 172 could comfortably despatch it on twisty country roads and roundabouts. I'm even more confident about the handling of my MG Midget at the moment!
It's not a grip thing, just the way it reacts, seemingly very unpredictably, lurching on occasion (like sudden weight transfer) requiring winding off of lock mid corner. Some bends it just seems to go around fine and you feel you could have carried a lot more speed through them. It's this unpredictable nature that concerns me when thinking about speed to commit to a corner.
The car is currently running 26psi all round on 18" wheels with toyo proxies that are about 2000 miles old.
Should it be like this? I realise I've only had the car for a few months but it just doesn't feel consistent in the way it handles.
Thanks in advance.
Assuming the shocks are OK and alignment is OK then I expect it will be much more predictable @24psi all round, there is a noticable difference on Goodyesr F1's between 24 and 27psi, especially the rear tyre pressure. There was a change in the front geometry early in T350 production, Maybe your car has the old setup?
VYT said:
Assuming the shocks are OK
Don't want to seem all doom and gloom but that was the third question any dealer asked me when mine was for sale (after the engine and rad question). One of them said after about 18k at least one shock will be dead meaning he would have to change at least one pair if not all of them.
Yours probably hasn't done that much so a re- alignment would transform the car but only for about 4k miles. Mine seemed to go all scary after this especially at 100+ mph.
blueyes said:
Assuming the shocks are OK
Don't want to seem all doom and gloom but that was the third question any dealer asked me when mine was for sale (after the engine and rad question). One of them said after about 18k at least one shock will be dead meaning he would have to change at least one pair if not all of them.
Yours probably hasn't done that much so a re- alignment would transform the car but only for about 4k miles. Mine seemed to go all scary after this especially at 100+ mph.
Wouldn't this be largely dependant on how the car's been driven during those 18K miles? I can't believe that if driven like a normal car 99.9% of the time, the shocks would need changing!
chris watton said:
VYT said:
Assuming the shocks are OK
Don't want to seem all doom and gloom but that was the third question any dealer asked me when mine was for sale (after the engine and rad question). One of them said after about 18k at least one shock will be dead meaning he would have to change at least one pair if not all of them.
Yours probably hasn't done that much so a re- alignment would transform the car but only for about 4k miles. Mine seemed to go all scary after this especially at 100+ mph.
Wouldn't this be largely dependant on how the car's been driven during those 18K miles? I can't believe that if driven like a normal car 99.9% of the time, the shocks would need changing!
I found it hard to believe too, but it could be down to the shite state of the roads in the U.K..... or maybe TVR being supplied duff/cheap parts. I'm not talking about the engine, mine did 24k with no problems, just about components like sensors, rads etc. Does anybody have a T350 that is still on all it's original water/temp/speed sensors?
OK, If thats the case regarding the suspension, when it eventually does need replacing, is it worth replacing it with a set of Nitrons? Are they much better in quality and ride, and at over £1K a set, would they last the lifetime of the car if subjected to mostly 'everyday' kind of driving? Are they a real asset to the car, and not just a 'Max Powerish' type upgrade?
blueyes said:
blueyes said:
VYT said:
Assuming the shocks are OK
Don't want to seem all doom and gloom but that was the third question any dealer asked me when mine was for sale (after the engine and rad question). One of them said after about 18k at least one shock will be dead meaning he would have to change at least one pair if not all of them.
Yours probably hasn't done that much so a re- alignment would transform the car but only for about 4k miles. Mine seemed to go all scary after this especially at 100+ mph.
Wouldn't this be largely dependant on how the car's been driven during those 18K miles? I can't believe that if driven like a normal car 99.9% of the time, the shocks would need changing!
I found it hard to believe too, but it could be down to the shite state of the roads in the U.K..... or maybe TVR being supplied duff/cheap parts. I'm not talking about the engine, mine did 24k with no problems, just about components like sensors, rads etc. Does anybody have a T350 that is still on all it's original water/temp/speed sensors?
Yep, wasn't someone due to pick one up today? Wouldn't bet on them all lasting to the 1st service though.
I've had all mine replaced (and some more than once in 6k miles and 5 months). Some are as a result of poor design, other component quality (I suspect).
chris watton said:
OK, If thats the case regarding the suspension, when it eventually does need replacing, is it worth replacing it with a set of Nitrons? Are they much better in quality and ride, and at over £1K a set, would they last the lifetime of the car if subjected to mostly 'everyday' kind of driving? Are they a real asset to the car, and not just a 'Max Powerish' type upgrade?
Neill Anderson designed the suspension, and said to me recently that 'the only improvement - would be to fit a good higher spec (and cost, of course!) damper than the original, such as Nitron or Ohlins'
Excuse me, but may I add that car handling problems @ 100mph on roads that are limited to 70mph are somewhat academic and irresponsible. Moreover I'll wager on the element of driver incapability being a prime reason why cars don't "handle correctly".
I'm no expert, but I do understand my limitations and from racing experience I can say that a car, cart or m/cycle with a certain set-up will feel completely different to drivers/riders of different weight, different ability and more to the point different attitude.
That old saying "a poor workman blames his tools" lives on.
I stand to be corrected in this instance of course!
I'm no expert, but I do understand my limitations and from racing experience I can say that a car, cart or m/cycle with a certain set-up will feel completely different to drivers/riders of different weight, different ability and more to the point different attitude.
That old saying "a poor workman blames his tools" lives on.
I stand to be corrected in this instance of course!
So Rob172, back to the point. I suggest dropping to 24psi all round and trying it before you spend any money. Hopefully the handling will be improved. Don't worry, that is not too low. My tyres are wearing perfectly evenly and the rears are only now ready for replacement at nearly 12k.
I got my T350 new not that long ago and its handling didnt give me much confidence in its and my abilities to drive it with any reasonable gusto.
Ie much over 60 and it got scary fast, even on tarmac that should have been capable of twice that. Dealer adjusted the tracking to a more benign setting (less toe in if I remeber correctly but could have also included less front camber) and its now not as bad. I wouldn't say its perfect as it still has significant bumpsteer , unfortunately for me most of my local roads are chuffing bumpy. It could also be a factor of the 18" fronts /tyre size as I know that classic Scoobs when "upgraded" to 18" could often become bumpsteering ditch seeking buggers.
I would say that fast front drivers are probably amongst the easiest cars to get a good speed out of, (with a few exceptions) and the T350 is probably out on the extremes. And i wouldnt doubt that your old 172 could give you a lot more confidence (See recent copy of Evo for a 182/M6 showdown). I'm hoping most of my problems are just a (re)learning curve as its a while since I had a lsd'd rear drive and that was only 1/2 the power/wieght ratio of the T350, Most of my recent fast car exposure being via a couple of turbo'd 4wds, which always seemed to flatter the driver.
On T350 I dont know where the limits are, and dont want to find them via a visit to a ditch or hedge.
PS one noticable change of the less darty steering settings seems to be more part throttle understeer , requiring a bit more boot to induce steering from the rear.
Ie much over 60 and it got scary fast, even on tarmac that should have been capable of twice that. Dealer adjusted the tracking to a more benign setting (less toe in if I remeber correctly but could have also included less front camber) and its now not as bad. I wouldn't say its perfect as it still has significant bumpsteer , unfortunately for me most of my local roads are chuffing bumpy. It could also be a factor of the 18" fronts /tyre size as I know that classic Scoobs when "upgraded" to 18" could often become bumpsteering ditch seeking buggers.
I would say that fast front drivers are probably amongst the easiest cars to get a good speed out of, (with a few exceptions) and the T350 is probably out on the extremes. And i wouldnt doubt that your old 172 could give you a lot more confidence (See recent copy of Evo for a 182/M6 showdown). I'm hoping most of my problems are just a (re)learning curve as its a while since I had a lsd'd rear drive and that was only 1/2 the power/wieght ratio of the T350, Most of my recent fast car exposure being via a couple of turbo'd 4wds, which always seemed to flatter the driver.
On T350 I dont know where the limits are, and dont want to find them via a visit to a ditch or hedge.
PS one noticable change of the less darty steering settings seems to be more part throttle understeer , requiring a bit more boot to induce steering from the rear.
exx said:
Excuse me, but may I add that car handling problems @ 100mph on roads that are limited to 70mph are somewhat academic and irresponsible.
I stand to be corrected in this instance of course!
*sigh* We've been here before. Car handling problems at 100mph ARE relevant - the fact that roads are limited to 70mph is a red herring. The national speed limit may be changed at some point, you may be driving abroad, you may be driving somewhere off the public highway where there is no speed limit. It's naive to expect everyone to stick rigidly to the speed limit, if it was true there would be no speed cameras etc etc.
There appear to be some people who don't realise that it can be more dangerous to drive at 20mph in a 30mph zone at 3.45 outside a school than to drive at 80mph on a deserted motorway at 6am in the morning on a clear and dry day.
Speed limits in this country are a blunt instrumnet, everyday we all see limits and road markings that are at best inconsistent and at worst dangerous. At least in some places on the continent and the US they have additional sophistication with different limits for dry and wet conditions.
If you build a car that does 170mph, you have a responsibility to the driver that it handles reasonably above 70mph which just happens to be the local national speed limit. The 70mph has no relevance other than that.
exx said:
Excuse me, but may I add that car handling problems @ 100mph on roads that are limited to 70mph are somewhat academic and irresponsible. Moreover I'll wager on the element of driver incapability being a prime reason why cars don't "handle correctly".
That old saying "a poor workman blames his tools" lives on.
The instances that I reached 100mph were in Germany. Academic? Irresponsible? My arse!
As for it not "handling correctly" being down to my crap driving... well,... I'm not saying my driving is up to F1 standards, just that my hairdressers SLK feels far more planted at 150mph than my T350 ever did, at just 100mph.
I'm not too sure. Surely if the car is handling badly then there's something wrong with it?
My t350c is not particularly stable over very bumpy back roads, but is substantially better than my old TVR's (Griff and Cerb), even when using Nitrons.
On more regular roads (probably 95% of them), it's a very stable, predictable car with excellent grip.
In regular use, the car's very difficult to provoke (though obviously planting it out of corners is never a good plan).
Why not take the car back to an experienced dealer and asking for their opinion (or attempting to get a drive in a low mileage, recent example as means of comparison?).
My t350c is not particularly stable over very bumpy back roads, but is substantially better than my old TVR's (Griff and Cerb), even when using Nitrons.
On more regular roads (probably 95% of them), it's a very stable, predictable car with excellent grip.
In regular use, the car's very difficult to provoke (though obviously planting it out of corners is never a good plan).
Why not take the car back to an experienced dealer and asking for their opinion (or attempting to get a drive in a low mileage, recent example as means of comparison?).
tail slide said:
Deejay 
Should feel stable on road / trackdays / Vmax on autobahn, as long as the v.precise steering is being guided calmly with 2 hands on the wheel.
Yes, I think people very easily forget just how quick the steering rack is, making the car 'seem' jittery on the road-very little input is needed to change direction of the car.
Another thing I noticed today, having immense fun on the twisties, is that when the road is smooth, the car is perfect, but-----once I got onto a bad surfaced road, had to kill my speed by half, as the front wanted to dart all over the place, not the car's fault, but the crappy road conditions, a stiff sports chassis coupled with low profile tyres does not like roads with surfaces that resemble the Somme.
>> Edited by chris watton on Saturday 3rd September 22:37
Well I've been experimenting quite a lot, mainly with the tyre pressures.
Originally I was running 26psi all round (18" wheels). I dropped this to 24psi as recommended here. I found that the car absorbed bumps slightly better, with less impact through the car.
Unfortunately I found I was encountering an adverse side effect of lowering the pressures in that the car seemed to have a lot less traction? Both in a straight line and more so exiting corners on the throttle. The back end would step out quite considerably at times, even in a straight line!
I've sinced gone up to 28 psi. This has produced a marked improvement in traction. I now seem to be able to get a lot more power down to the road without breaking traction, higher exit speeds from corners whilst on the throttle without the back end stepping out and also seemingly more resistance to roll on the corners.
Does this make any sense?
Originally I was running 26psi all round (18" wheels). I dropped this to 24psi as recommended here. I found that the car absorbed bumps slightly better, with less impact through the car.
Unfortunately I found I was encountering an adverse side effect of lowering the pressures in that the car seemed to have a lot less traction? Both in a straight line and more so exiting corners on the throttle. The back end would step out quite considerably at times, even in a straight line!
I've sinced gone up to 28 psi. This has produced a marked improvement in traction. I now seem to be able to get a lot more power down to the road without breaking traction, higher exit speeds from corners whilst on the throttle without the back end stepping out and also seemingly more resistance to roll on the corners.
Does this make any sense?
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