Red Rose or not?
Discussion
targarama said:
Why not just get an Austec rechip for now? Unless you need a rebuild and can thus justify the full monty TVR Power work??
Top advice there.
TVR Power require the engine to be uprated to 4 litre size before carrying out a Red Rose, they told me they would not do a RR on a 3.6.
Talking £6-7K, for an extra 30bhp max!
chris watton said:
Why not just get an Austec rechip for now? Unless you need a rebuild and can thus justify the full monty TVR Power work??
Top advice there.
TVR Power require the engine to be uprated to 4 litre size before carrying out a Red Rose, they told me they would not do a RR on a 3.6.
Talking £6-7K, for an extra 30bhp max!
30 BHP max, get your facts right before posting...try 50+ depending if you have a decatt, and yes on the tuscan formum there is a person with dyno proof of this before you flame me... 403BHP at the flywheel at Austec on the rollers...
And how about the extra low down torque the 3.6 does not have and the extra smooth engine the std 3.6 does not have.
I went the Austec chip route first, and I can tell you the difference between the 4.0 red rose and the 3.6 with Austec chip is like chalk and cheese. The 4.0ltr is so much better. I have also driven the 3.6 Red rose with estimated 375BHP, and I didnt notice much difference to the std 3.6 power wise, just the engine was smoother.
If you have a budget of £1200-1500, then get a rechip, this is how much it will cost you, been there done that, have the receipt to prove it.
Mr F
Mr Freefall said:
targarama said:
Why not just get an Austec rechip for now? Unless you need a rebuild and can thus justify the full monty TVR Power work??
Top advice there.
TVR Power require the engine to be uprated to 4 litre size before carrying out a Red Rose, they told me they would not do a RR on a 3.6.
Talking £6-7K, for an extra 30bhp max!
30 BHP max, get your facts right before posting...try 50+ depending if you have a decatt, and yes on the tuscan formum there is a person with dyno proof of this before you flame me... 403BHP at the flywheel at Austec on the rollers...
And how about the extra low down torque the 3.6 does not have and the extra smooth engine the std 3.6 does not have.
I went the Austec chip route first, and I can tell you the difference between the 4.0 red rose and the 3.6 with Austec chip is like chalk and cheese. The 4.0ltr is so much better. I have also driven the 3.6 Red rose with estimated 375BHP, and I didnt notice much difference to the std 3.6 power wise, just the engine was smoother.
If you have a budget of £1200-1500, then get a rechip, this is how much it will cost you, been there done that, have the receipt to prove it.
Mr F
Sorry!! didnt realise I was in a court of Law meticulously researching each tiny fact!!
I was talking about REAL WORLD performance, not what some guys tells you it may be,( and each dyno gives a very different reading, no matter where you take it, so they're not fact either!!) as you have just stated yourself, there's not exactly a world of difference, especially not for the overall cost getting a 3.6 bored out to 4 litres and then RR.
chris watton said:
chris watton said:
targarama said:
Why not just get an Austec rechip for now? Unless you need a rebuild and can thus justify the full monty TVR Power work??
Top advice there.
TVR Power require the engine to be uprated to 4 litre size before carrying out a Red Rose, they told me they would not do a RR on a 3.6.
Talking £6-7K, for an extra 30bhp max!
30 BHP max, get your facts right before posting...try 50+ depending if you have a decatt, and yes on the tuscan formum there is a person with dyno proof of this before you flame me... 403BHP at the flywheel at Austec on the rollers...
And how about the extra low down torque the 3.6 does not have and the extra smooth engine the std 3.6 does not have.
I went the Austec chip route first, and I can tell you the difference between the 4.0 red rose and the 3.6 with Austec chip is like chalk and cheese. The 4.0ltr is so much better. I have also driven the 3.6 Red rose with estimated 375BHP, and I didnt notice much difference to the std 3.6 power wise, just the engine was smoother.
If you have a budget of £1200-1500, then get a rechip, this is how much it will cost you, been there done that, have the receipt to prove it.
Mr F
Sorry!! didnt realise I was in a court of Law meticulously researching each tiny fact!!
I was talking about REAL WORLD performance, not what some guys tells you it may be,( and each dyno gives a very different reading, no matter where you take it, so they're not fact either!!) as you have just stated yourself, there's not exactly a world of difference, especially not for the overall cost getting a 3.6 bored out to 4 litres and then RR.
Chris,
If were taling tiny fact here, the engine is not bored out, you get a new crank, and different rods. The bore is exactly the same.
If there is not a world of difference, then why get a re-chip in the first place? just stay at the std 3.6 engine, makes no sense at all to spend the money if you are not going to use the car in the real world.
You will never use the power on the roads, save then money and spend it on beer.
If on the other hand you want something a little different, spend the money, there is a marked difference from a Tuscan S and a std T350, you do not have to rag then engine to ring the power out of the 4.0ltr. Only the other day I read someone on here sayiny wait till you get the engine to 8000rpm, then they fly. The only thing that will fly at 8000rpm, is a rod through the side of the block on a std 3.6.
No personal insult intended on any of these post's BTW.
Mr F
Mr Freefall said:
....the engine is not bored out, you get a new crank, and different rods. The bore is exactly the same.
If on the other hand you want something a little different, spend the money, there is a marked difference from a Tuscan S and a std T350, you do not have to rag then engine to ring the power out of the 4.0ltr.
Mr F
Very interesting Mr F. So it might offer VFM if I am after more torgue and smoothness-which is what I am missing. If they just change the crank and rods is there enough meat on the block to allow for boreing out? Could the 4L be made bigger? It depends on avaiability of pistons-the bore would have to match available sizes of the rifght type of piston i.e shallow skirt.
I know it sounds expensive but just how much larger could the Speed 6 go?
Maybe this is a thread for the Speed 6 engine forum Ted?
Mr Freefall said:
Chris,
If were taling tiny fact here, the engine is not bored out, you get a new crank, and different rods. The bore is exactly the same.
If there is not a world of difference, then why get a re-chip in the first place? just stay at the std 3.6 engine, makes no sense at all to spend the money if you are not going to use the car in the real world.
You will never use the power on the roads, save then money and spend it on beer.
If on the other hand you want something a little different, spend the money, there is a marked difference from a Tuscan S and a std T350, you do not have to rag then engine to ring the power out of the 4.0ltr. Only the other day I read someone on here sayiny wait till you get the engine to 8000rpm, then they fly. The only thing that will fly at 8000rpm, is a rod through the side of the block on a std 3.6.
No personal insult intended on any of these post's BTW.
Mr F
I personally know little about engines and the mechanics involved. I stand by what I said regarding the power based purely on my own experience, so what it really boils down when stripped bare is, is the RR a 'significant improvement in performace'. In my experience, for what could be a £7 exercise, no! I have had a long drive in a Tuscan S (390 bhp version), I was expecting it to feel a LOT quicker than my humble 3.6 Tam,, the reality was that there was very little difference, in fact, the best thing about it was the C/R box, which I bought and had fitted to my Tam not long after. I am sure that in the higher rev range, the S shines more, and if you were really into track days and you needed that little bit extra to beat that elusive 911 turbo, or whatever, then fine, spending upwards of £7k would maybe be worth it for the extra few hundred revs and a bit more torque! If, however, you do very few trackdays and the car is used for 'normal' everyday driving on UK roads, I suspect some would feel bitterly disappointed with that extra power. I have done over 60mph in 1st gear, got there VERY quickly, if I used the full rev range for 2nd gear, until it hits the limiter, I am doing at least 20mph over the speed limit, again, getting there very quickly. In reality, how many seconds, if any, would I shave off if I spent £7k on the full RR conversion?
I would say, based on my own experience, that there isnt such a 'marked difference' between a standard T350 and a Tuscan S, not in the real world of driving on UK roads.
I wouldn't personally have the Austec chip, btw, but if my engine does need a rebuild at some point, I see no reason in not paying the same amount for a 3.6-4litre upgrade, as it's costing me little more than a rebuild anyway.
Finally, if want all the extra power just because you don't want to 'rag the engine to ring the power out of it', then surely, you bought the wrong type of car? (Not that I've ever thought of going through the gears accompanied by a huge, lovely wall of sound a negative!)
Chris I understand where you are coming from but I had an S before I had the T350 and have to say from my experience the 4L was a more relaxed drive at lower revs which is no doubt the torque,and pulled harder when in the hurry up. The reason I have been mulling over an upgrade is I love the looks and handling of the 350 but would have liked the 4l engine.The Sagaris is a car I admire greatly butwhich-they filled in the slots I have never liked it as much as the show car.
It think tyou are right about the CR box .It needs to be part of the deal as well as I still remeber pulling 58 to 60 in first in my old Tuscan.
It think tyou are right about the CR box .It needs to be part of the deal as well as I still remeber pulling 58 to 60 in first in my old Tuscan.
sideways mostly said:
Mr Freefall said:
....the engine is not bored out, you get a new crank, and different rods. The bore is exactly the same.
If on the other hand you want something a little different, spend the money, there is a marked difference from a Tuscan S and a std T350, you do not have to rag then engine to ring the power out of the 4.0ltr.
Mr F
Very interesting Mr F. So it might offer VFM if I am after more torgue and smoothness-which is what I am missing. If they just change the crank and rods is there enough meat on the block to allow for boreing out? Could the 4L be made bigger? It depends on avaiability of pistons-the bore would have to match available sizes of the rifght type of piston i.e shallow skirt.
I know it sounds expensive but just how much larger could the Speed 6 go?
Maybe this is a thread for the Speed 6 engine forum Ted?
This would then be the 4.2 engine that was in the T440. The problem was then the power and tourque could not be handled throught the bottom end on the Speed six, and needed differnt caps and shells etc. The 440 spec is £15k I think Dom was saying. The bottom end had to be braced.
The 4.0 RR is not £7k, is the price of the 3.6 redrose, with the additional £1600 +vat for the Crank
You do get, new rods, new pistons, new injectors, reworked head (new cam's etc, well I did on mine), new crank, new valves, retainers, springs etc etc etc.
So, your block will be the same, the head will be reworked, and 95% of the engine internals are replaced. And you do get an Itemised list of all the bits and work that is done, over 2 pages of it.
Hope this helps
Mr F
sideways mostly said:
Chris I understand where you are coming from but I had an S before I had the T350 and have to say from my experience the 4L was a more relaxed drive at lower revs which is no doubt the torque,and pulled harder when in the hurry up. The reason I have been mulling over an upgrade is I love the looks and handling of the 350 but would have liked the 4l engine.The Sagaris is a car I admire greatly butwhich-they filled in the slots I have never liked it as much as the show car.
It think tyou are right about the CR box .It needs to be part of the deal as well as I still remeber pulling 58 to 60 in first in my old Tuscan.
Steve, I was the same as you, I had a Tuscan Red Rose before my 350, and I missed the relaxed effotless drive the 4.0ltr gives from the 3.6 engine.
Mr F
Didnt realise you two guys already 4 litre cars in the past, your experience amkes my one drive in an S redundant really! lol. I guess if you've driven the more oweful versions on a day to day basis, you would feel the difference. My point of view is not set in stone, the more I learn, the more it changes!
( 2 years ago, I too thought the S6 was a timbbomb when I still had my V8 chim!) regarding the RR upgrade for the 3.6, I did work it out to be almost £7K in all, as the 3.6 needed to be upgraded to 4 litres before the RR could be done! Am I wrong?
chris watton said:
Didnt realise you two guys already 4 litre cars in the past, your experience amkes my one drive in an S redundant really! lol. I guess if you've driven the more oweful versions on a day to day basis, you would feel the difference. My point of view is not set in stone, the more I learn, the more it changes!
regarding the RR upgrade for the 3.6, I did work it out to be almost £7K in all, as the 3.6 needed to be upgraded to 4 litres before the RR could be done! Am I wrong?
Hi Chris,
The way to cost it, is take the 3.6 RR conversion, then add then add £1600 for the crank, then add the vat
£5407.35 all in, including VAT. You then get the 1000 mile service FOC, after you have run the car in as I recall.
So, you are paying £5.4k for what is basically a new engine. Now, that is cheap as far as I am concerned, and you get the latest 2005 spec engine.
You can spend more money, on the Tuscan S brake upgrade, with new disc, and then decatt and sports exhuast.
If you go for the decat and sport exhuast, then TVR actaully give you a slightly different mapped chip for this as there you have a better gas flowing engine the mapp is slightly richer, and the last decatt chip I had gave 10BHP more over the std 3.6 chip. I dont know what the extra is for the 4.0 ltr. though.
Mr F
>> Edited by Mr Freefall on Friday 9th September 14:42
Hi Mr F,
Thanks for that, is that at TVR Power? I ask because when we went up there late last year to have my sports exhaust fitted, I asked Dom about having a RR conversion for my car. He told me that because the 3.6 was already in a very high state of tune, they wouldn't do it, it had to be a 4 litre version before doing it! This was 10 months ago though, things may have changed since then.
Thanks for that, is that at TVR Power? I ask because when we went up there late last year to have my sports exhaust fitted, I asked Dom about having a RR conversion for my car. He told me that because the 3.6 was already in a very high state of tune, they wouldn't do it, it had to be a 4 litre version before doing it! This was 10 months ago though, things may have changed since then.
)targarama said:
If you decat, do TVR Power have a friendly MOT station to help you through?
You just put your catts back on to get through the MOT.
The reason why they would not do it 10 months ago was because of the Sagaris I suspect.
There are only 8 cars to this spec built, mine is one, and its up for sale. They WILL not do the 4.0 RR in a Tamora, as far as I am aware, this I think because its a convertable pocket rocket without a rollbar, where the T350 has a roll bar. etc
You used to have to get the Factory's permision to get it done, I did have a Sagaris on Order, so perhaps this helped.
Ahh that makes a lot of sense-I think they had to stiffen the Typhon block as well.
I agree with you Fred £5.4k for a new 400+bhp is good value especially if you have had use of the 3.6 version for a couple of years already.
This is a great debate-We need more on how to get the most out of the Speed 6.
Chris- I am never worried by a firmly held honestly considered opinion- its B*LL*X that gets me upset.
Speed 6's rule!
ooops -missed of the 'k'
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Friday 9th September 15:59
I agree with you Fred £5.4k for a new 400+bhp is good value especially if you have had use of the 3.6 version for a couple of years already.
This is a great debate-We need more on how to get the most out of the Speed 6.
Chris- I am never worried by a firmly held honestly considered opinion- its B*LL*X that gets me upset.
Speed 6's rule!
ooops -missed of the 'k'
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Friday 9th September 15:59
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