I swear my car is getting quicker..
Discussion
Have just turned 3000 miles, car had 2200 when I bought it last Friday.
Went down to Racing Green this morning, was having good chat to Martin in service, re: massive stone chip I picked up and sports exhausts.. :D
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away.
Pulls harder than a GT3 and my old 993 turbo, which had 450bhp.. Only the Cerbie 4.5 was on this level, and I think Sag is quicker than that.!
What a beast, handling and feedback through wheel, are absolutely divine. :D
God, I love this car.!
Rob
Went down to Racing Green this morning, was having good chat to Martin in service, re: massive stone chip I picked up and sports exhausts.. :D
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away.
Pulls harder than a GT3 and my old 993 turbo, which had 450bhp.. Only the Cerbie 4.5 was on this level, and I think Sag is quicker than that.!
What a beast, handling and feedback through wheel, are absolutely divine. :D
God, I love this car.!
Rob
Mines done around 12k now. The beauty of buying nearly new, not only do you save money but it's all nicely run in and able to blat!
Had mine a week tomorrow, only 550 miles so far, going large on milage this weekend, got to get this running in over!! However it still feels like it wants to go and go.
I need a little sign saying "It's your lucky day, running in!" to hold up to all the porsche drivers who want to have a go!
It corners like a go-kart, the steering is so positive!
Had mine a week tomorrow, only 550 miles so far, going large on milage this weekend, got to get this running in over!! However it still feels like it wants to go and go.
I need a little sign saying "It's your lucky day, running in!" to hold up to all the porsche drivers who want to have a go!
It corners like a go-kart, the steering is so positive!
smirnoff said:
Had mine a week tomorrow, only 550 miles so far, going large on milage this weekend, got to get this running in over!! However it still feels like it wants to go and go.
I need a little sign saying "It's your lucky day, running in!" to hold up to all the porsche drivers who want to have a go!
It corners like a go-kart, the steering is so positive!
Can echo all the above
especially the steering and cornering abilities, I'm going round twisties far quicker than I ever did with the Cerb or Tuscan. What's more I'm rarely having to use the brakes which feels strange... the car just feels glued to the tarmac. Got about 650 miles done so far and it is frustrating sometimes having to hold back
. Have had lorries overtaking me when I'm limiting revs to 2500rpm (waiting for oil to warm up) which is a little embarassing 
Can't wait till the 1000 mile service on 17th October so I can start (gradually) upping the revs
PP
Kurgen_ said:
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away
A31 actually (but who's counting
) and if you do blat down that road going west, ease up well before you pass the lay-by / car park by Puttenham. Very common to see BiB with that laser thingy pointing east and it's not until you curve round to the left before the carpark that you see it - then it's too late. Too much of this Sagaris chest-thumping and I might have to change my mind about the brilliant silver '02 Cerbie at Racing Green!
Kurgen_ said:
Have just turned 3000 miles, car had 2200 when I bought it last Friday.
Went down to Racing Green this morning, was having good chat to Martin in service, re: massive stone chip I picked up and sports exhausts..
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away.
Pulls harder than a GT3 and my old 993 turbo, which had 450bhp.. Only the Cerbie 4.5 was on this level, and I think Sag is quicker than that.!
What a beast, handling and feedback through wheel, are absolutely divine.
God, I love this car.!
Rob
Dude, feedback through the helm is shite, it is the single worst aspect of the car.
DJC said:
Have just turned 3000 miles, car had 2200 when I bought it last Friday.
Went down to Racing Green this morning, was having good chat to Martin in service, re: massive stone chip I picked up and sports exhausts..
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away.
Pulls harder than a GT3 and my old 993 turbo, which had 450bhp.. Only the Cerbie 4.5 was on this level, and I think Sag is quicker than that.!
What a beast, handling and feedback through wheel, are absolutely divine.
God, I love this car.!
Rob
Dude, feedback through the helm is shite, it is the single worst aspect of the car.
??
you must have a badly setup one, try some more neg camber at front.
DJC said:
Dude, feedback through the helm is shite, it is the single worst aspect of the car.
DJC you have been commenting about the steering since you've had the Sagaris.
Sounds like you may have a problem
cos we think it's fine. But we're comparing to a Cerb and the Sag definately doesn't hunt out camber or tramline in the same way.
YP
Nope. Sorry guys but steering feedback is rubbish.
It is rubbish on every Sagaris Ive driven and by and large pretty much rubbish on all modern day cars.
This however is always going to be the case on relatively large width tyres and power assisted racks. Simple physics essentially makes it so.
If you dont think so, get in an old, well sorted narrow tyred Sprite or Mk1 Mx5. Both of which are light yrs ahead of *any* modern car.
For a start it never helps that even a Sagaris is 300kg's heavier than old school stuff and it certainly doesnt help when the steering is *too* assisted anyway.
It is rubbish on every Sagaris Ive driven and by and large pretty much rubbish on all modern day cars.
This however is always going to be the case on relatively large width tyres and power assisted racks. Simple physics essentially makes it so.
If you dont think so, get in an old, well sorted narrow tyred Sprite or Mk1 Mx5. Both of which are light yrs ahead of *any* modern car.
For a start it never helps that even a Sagaris is 300kg's heavier than old school stuff and it certainly doesnt help when the steering is *too* assisted anyway.
hut49 said:
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away
A31 actually (but who's counting
Too much of this Sagaris chest-thumping and I might have to change my mind about the brilliant silver '02 Cerbie at Racing Green!
Nope it's the A331. The clue was in the word "lovely" before "dual carriageway". The A31, between the A3 and the A331, is 'orrible!
The A331 links A31 and M3; Racing Green sits just off it. Decent blatting strip. Plenty bridges and slips to get snapped from though.
Now about this steering feedback. However it compares to old sports cars, it's a danged sight better (Tuscan + one Sagaris drive!) *than other new cars*.
charltm said:
Kurgen_ said:
Anyway the run down to Ash Vale from the A3 is a lovely dual carriageway (A331), and the car was pulling so hard in 3rd, sorta blew me away
A31 actually (but who's counting
Too much of this Sagaris chest-thumping and I might have to change my mind about the brilliant silver '02 Cerbie at Racing Green!
Nope it's the A331. The clue was in the word "lovely" before "dual carriageway". The A31, between the A3 and the A331, is 'orrible!
The A331 links A31 and M3; Racing Green sits just off it. Decent blatting strip. Plenty bridges and slips to get snapped from though.
Now about this steering feedback. However it compares to old sports cars, it's a danged sight better (Tuscan + one Sagaris drive!) *than other new cars*.
Ahh well just because the other stuff is rubbish doesnt make the Sagaris good, it just makes it less rubbish. The Sagaris steering is functional, it does the job, it is not however, one of the world's great helms.
DJC said:
Nope. Sorry guys but steering feedback is rubbish.
It is rubbish on every Sagaris Ive driven and by and large pretty much rubbish on all modern day cars.
This however is always going to be the case on relatively large width tyres and power assisted racks. Simple physics essentially makes it so.
If you dont think so, get in an old, well sorted narrow tyred Sprite or Mk1 Mx5. Both of which are light yrs ahead of *any* modern car.
For a start it never helps that even a Sagaris is 300kg's heavier than old school stuff and it certainly doesnt help when the steering is *too* assisted anyway.
Sounds like a bit of a generational thing here - "they don't make 'em steer like they used to sonny" - quite a lot of us have never driven older skinny tyred cars, so we have to compare to what we've grown up with, and what is generally available for us to buy.
I'd say the steering feedback through Tam is better than most cars I've driven, R5 GT Turbo also had great feedback, but that was unassisted!
DJC's alone in not liking the steering. My guess is he doesn't like power steering of any kind, which is fair enough.
For my half penneth I also own a Caterham. Nothing touches it for feedback and feel. You can feel understeer before it happens which means you can drive right up to the limit of front end grip within a few laps on an unfamiliar circuit. It's truly eye opening if you've never driven a good 7 on a circuit. But the steering is so quick you don't get to use enough lock to compare it to ordinary cars.
I've driven a few Elise's and Exiges and used to own a Lancia Integrale and Lotus Esprit V8. The latter are thought to have amongst the best power steering systems ever. Elise's are said to have virtually the best steering ever.
I have to say the steering on my car is definitely one of its better features and it compares very well with cars I'd previously owned. Personally I think there is more feel than the even faster steering T350. The main advantage of power steering for a sports car is that it allows a quicker rack than you'd otherwise have. Old non assisted cars used to have low geared racks because the steering was too heavy with a quick rack. It was a bad compromise. NB just look at the size of the old steering wheels - they needed them that big just for leverage!
Just try the Saggy's steering with the ignition off. They'd never have used a rack that quick without the power steering. It would have been (even more) unparkable! I firmly believe for best results the steering should be light at all cornering speeds. If it loads up with weight you're using arm muscle to turn the car which makes it a blunt instrument. Steering obviously shifts the cars weight from side to side and this is something that needs to be done more and more progressively the faster you go. On a track it's critical. Maintaining an even level of weighting in the steering at different speeds lets you do this. For me steering should be scalpel sharp, super accurate and light to use - just like the Saggy's. This is the modern approach and I totally get it.
Steering feel on the other hand is much harder to quantify. It seems to elude the likes of Audi. They said the Escort Cosworth was dead at the helm despite being very quick steering. Same for the S2000. Having owned both I know what they mean but I also know it's something you can live without. But I also agree with the very good reveiws of the Sagaris's helm in the car mags.
>> Edited by the pits on Friday 30th September 09:19
For my half penneth I also own a Caterham. Nothing touches it for feedback and feel. You can feel understeer before it happens which means you can drive right up to the limit of front end grip within a few laps on an unfamiliar circuit. It's truly eye opening if you've never driven a good 7 on a circuit. But the steering is so quick you don't get to use enough lock to compare it to ordinary cars.
I've driven a few Elise's and Exiges and used to own a Lancia Integrale and Lotus Esprit V8. The latter are thought to have amongst the best power steering systems ever. Elise's are said to have virtually the best steering ever.
I have to say the steering on my car is definitely one of its better features and it compares very well with cars I'd previously owned. Personally I think there is more feel than the even faster steering T350. The main advantage of power steering for a sports car is that it allows a quicker rack than you'd otherwise have. Old non assisted cars used to have low geared racks because the steering was too heavy with a quick rack. It was a bad compromise. NB just look at the size of the old steering wheels - they needed them that big just for leverage!
Just try the Saggy's steering with the ignition off. They'd never have used a rack that quick without the power steering. It would have been (even more) unparkable! I firmly believe for best results the steering should be light at all cornering speeds. If it loads up with weight you're using arm muscle to turn the car which makes it a blunt instrument. Steering obviously shifts the cars weight from side to side and this is something that needs to be done more and more progressively the faster you go. On a track it's critical. Maintaining an even level of weighting in the steering at different speeds lets you do this. For me steering should be scalpel sharp, super accurate and light to use - just like the Saggy's. This is the modern approach and I totally get it.
Steering feel on the other hand is much harder to quantify. It seems to elude the likes of Audi. They said the Escort Cosworth was dead at the helm despite being very quick steering. Same for the S2000. Having owned both I know what they mean but I also know it's something you can live without. But I also agree with the very good reveiws of the Sagaris's helm in the car mags.
>> Edited by the pits on Friday 30th September 09:19
As mentioned above there's a reason all modern performance cars have power steering.
If you have to use arm muscle to turn the car you lose finesse and it's much, much harder to correct slides. Sometimes impossible. Heavy steering is slow, clumsy steering.
Delicate steering lets you transfer the car's weight smoothly - essential for quick lapping. If the steering loads up under hard cornering you have to change your input efforts which is dangerous because you'll steer too much, if the steering goes light suddenly (eg over a bump or rise in the track) this can unbalance the car.
If you have to use arm muscle to turn the car you lose finesse and it's much, much harder to correct slides. Sometimes impossible. Heavy steering is slow, clumsy steering.
Delicate steering lets you transfer the car's weight smoothly - essential for quick lapping. If the steering loads up under hard cornering you have to change your input efforts which is dangerous because you'll steer too much, if the steering goes light suddenly (eg over a bump or rise in the track) this can unbalance the car.
AlexRWD said:
Nope. Sorry guys but steering feedback is rubbish.
It is rubbish on every Sagaris Ive driven and by and large pretty much rubbish on all modern day cars.
This however is always going to be the case on relatively large width tyres and power assisted racks. Simple physics essentially makes it so.
If you dont think so, get in an old, well sorted narrow tyred Sprite or Mk1 Mx5. Both of which are light yrs ahead of *any* modern car.
For a start it never helps that even a Sagaris is 300kg's heavier than old school stuff and it certainly doesnt help when the steering is *too* assisted anyway.
Sounds like a bit of a generational thing here - "they don't make 'em steer like they used to sonny" - quite a lot of us have never driven older skinny tyred cars, so we have to compare to what we've grown up with, and what is generally available for us to buy.
I'd say the steering feedback through Tam is better than most cars I've driven, R5 GT Turbo also had great feedback, but that was unassisted!
Im 29.
the pits said:
As mentioned above there's a reason all modern performance cars have power steering.
If you have to use arm muscle to turn the car you lose finesse and it's much, much harder to correct slides. Sometimes impossible. Heavy steering is slow, clumsy steering.
Delicate steering lets you transfer the car's weight smoothly - essential for quick lapping. If the steering loads up under hard cornering you have to change your input efforts which is dangerous because you'll steer too much, if the steering goes light suddenly (eg over a bump or rise in the track) this can unbalance the car.
Not strictly true. Everything you have said is essentially true for the given of 2 params...large width modern day rubber and track work.
Sports cars now sport wide rubber and often have a large amount of track work tuning in.
Apart from maybe a blat around the Ring every now and then, I go nowhere near tracks. For me 3/4s of the fun of driving is the journey, going to the destination. Just going round a track for no great reason, well...its pointless. If you are racing it is different, but a "track day" ? Thanks, but no thanks.
DJC is also *not* alone in disliking the over assisted steering on the Sagaris, or the lack of feel.
Well you seem alone in not liking the steering here on pistonheads at least. It is of course possible that we are wrong and the steering isn't all that. Besides it's clearly a matter of personal taste anyway so feel free not to enjoy your beautifully judged steering!
The Sagaris could have no power assistance but it would either need a huge steering wheel (no thanks) or a much slower rack to make it usable. This would ruin the high speed steering for the sake of low speed manoeveres. Or you go the AC cobra, Ferrari Daytona route and just make it pretty awful at both speeds.
Controlling a slide in an AC cobra would need enormous skill and herculean arm strength. Neither of which I have so I'm glad I have a steering system that lets me slide the car with ease and without breaking into a sweat.
Regarding track days. Just imagine your favourite ever stretch of road closed off with no speed limits, cameras or police, no old duffers or tractors pulling out, no trees or lamp posts to hit. I'm struggling to see why you wouldn't enjoy that?
Most people I know who are opposed to track days are really against them on the grounds of cost, which is entirely fair enough as it's their money and tyres.
But I've become an immeasurably better driver as a result of years of track days and tuition and I've walked away without a scratch (on me and the car) from incidents that would have been very nasty on the road.
More than that they are huge fun. I'd recommend them to anyone. To a Sagaris owner I'd say they were compulsory!
The Sagaris could have no power assistance but it would either need a huge steering wheel (no thanks) or a much slower rack to make it usable. This would ruin the high speed steering for the sake of low speed manoeveres. Or you go the AC cobra, Ferrari Daytona route and just make it pretty awful at both speeds.
Controlling a slide in an AC cobra would need enormous skill and herculean arm strength. Neither of which I have so I'm glad I have a steering system that lets me slide the car with ease and without breaking into a sweat.
Regarding track days. Just imagine your favourite ever stretch of road closed off with no speed limits, cameras or police, no old duffers or tractors pulling out, no trees or lamp posts to hit. I'm struggling to see why you wouldn't enjoy that?
Most people I know who are opposed to track days are really against them on the grounds of cost, which is entirely fair enough as it's their money and tyres.
But I've become an immeasurably better driver as a result of years of track days and tuition and I've walked away without a scratch (on me and the car) from incidents that would have been very nasty on the road.
More than that they are huge fun. I'd recommend them to anyone. To a Sagaris owner I'd say they were compulsory!
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