Speed 6 life expectancy....
Discussion
Hello all, I'm one of the people on here who's been running a Speed 6 (first customer Tamora) with no engine trouble. Until yesterday....
Yesterday the car was booked into TVR Power for its 30,000 mile service after 34 months. The car was running quite rough, was noisy and was cutting out when cold; all things I thought meant it was in dire need of servicing.
TVR Power noticed the car was down on compression, running on five cylinders, miss-firing and vales were lowering. I may have got some of these terms wrong I'm not the most mechanically minded. Recommendation is for the engine to come out and undergo the blueprinting that TVR Power offers.
So considering I've done 30,000 miles without any engine trouble and not had any extra costs during the past services should I consider myself to be:-
1. Lucky to have done 30,000 trouble-free miles.
2. Unlucky to have to fork out for the engine blueprinting.
3. Pissed off that the engine only has a life expectancy of 30,000 miles.
What does everyone else think?
Cheers.... Andrew
Yesterday the car was booked into TVR Power for its 30,000 mile service after 34 months. The car was running quite rough, was noisy and was cutting out when cold; all things I thought meant it was in dire need of servicing.
TVR Power noticed the car was down on compression, running on five cylinders, miss-firing and vales were lowering. I may have got some of these terms wrong I'm not the most mechanically minded. Recommendation is for the engine to come out and undergo the blueprinting that TVR Power offers.
So considering I've done 30,000 miles without any engine trouble and not had any extra costs during the past services should I consider myself to be:-
1. Lucky to have done 30,000 trouble-free miles.
2. Unlucky to have to fork out for the engine blueprinting.
3. Pissed off that the engine only has a life expectancy of 30,000 miles.
What does everyone else think?
Cheers.... Andrew
Hi Andrew 
To be honest, if it were me, I would be quite happy (for want of a better word!), for my S6 to have an overhaul at 30K (mine's at 20K at the mo)as some large services can run into the £2K terratory anyway, paying that bit extra for what should be a perfect 'as new' engine again isn't too bad a bitter pill to swallow.
To be honest, if it were me, I would be quite happy (for want of a better word!), for my S6 to have an overhaul at 30K (mine's at 20K at the mo)as some large services can run into the £2K terratory anyway, paying that bit extra for what should be a perfect 'as new' engine again isn't too bad a bitter pill to swallow.
ALT said:
So considering I've done 30,000 miles without any engine trouble and not had any extra costs during the past services should I consider myself to be:-
1. Lucky to have done 30,000 trouble-free miles.
2. Unlucky to have to fork out for the engine blueprinting.
3. Pissed off that the engine only has a life expectancy of 30,000 miles.
What does everyone else think?
All three. You might also consider the Auto/TVRCraft route. J
JR said:
So considering I've done 30,000 miles without any engine trouble and not had any extra costs during the past services should I consider myself to be:-
1. Lucky to have done 30,000 trouble-free miles.
2. Unlucky to have to fork out for the engine blueprinting.
3. Pissed off that the engine only has a life expectancy of 30,000 miles.
What does everyone else think?
All three. You might also consider the Auto/TVRCraft route. J
But that's no less than £5/6K, comapared to around £3K (IIRC)for the blueprint, I think he's saying the engine is inherently fine, it's just that some parts are worn and need replacing. I would trust both TVR Power and Auto/TVRCraft to do the work, but if it were me, in this instance, I'd go for the TVR Power blueprint
Factor in the bhp per litre,the rev range,the dry sump lubrication,the super light weight flywheel and other tricksy stuff like independently monitored inlet flow rates,the character of a big straight six ,the sound and the fact its the only high performance engine ( that I am aware of ) to be designed and built in England for ordinary road use and although it may be flawed it remains a magnificent effort which I am happy to support.
I am sorry its popped on you.
Personally I am relying on the new warranty ,and with the factory backing 36k I would expect to get 50-60k, but am expecting to have a rebuild at some point when I would try to do a deal and get the beast RR's at the same time,that way the 'refreshment' will be easier to put up with as it comes with a performance upgrade and the warranty work will help the cost.
It would be great to have an engine of this peformance last as long as the Buick based cars but I do think this is a bit unrealistic-after all even the mighty M5 with is fabulously engineered V10 only acheives 100bhp per litre when you press the m button-which implies BMW are not confident it will last as long at full output as it does in vanila mode.
If BMW can't support this level of performance permanently is it realistic to expect TVR to do so?
If I were you I'd go for an upgrade,spend the winter anticipating a fabulous Spring and another glorious 30k miles.
Good luck
I am sorry its popped on you.
Personally I am relying on the new warranty ,and with the factory backing 36k I would expect to get 50-60k, but am expecting to have a rebuild at some point when I would try to do a deal and get the beast RR's at the same time,that way the 'refreshment' will be easier to put up with as it comes with a performance upgrade and the warranty work will help the cost.
It would be great to have an engine of this peformance last as long as the Buick based cars but I do think this is a bit unrealistic-after all even the mighty M5 with is fabulously engineered V10 only acheives 100bhp per litre when you press the m button-which implies BMW are not confident it will last as long at full output as it does in vanila mode.
If BMW can't support this level of performance permanently is it realistic to expect TVR to do so?
If I were you I'd go for an upgrade,spend the winter anticipating a fabulous Spring and another glorious 30k miles.
Good luck
chris watton said:
So considering I've done 30,000 miles without any engine trouble and not had any extra costs during the past services should I consider myself to be:-
1. Lucky to have done 30,000 trouble-free miles.
2. Unlucky to have to fork out for the engine blueprinting.
3. Pissed off that the engine only has a life expectancy of 30,000 miles.
What does everyone else think?
All three. You might also consider the Auto/TVRCraft route. J
But that's no less than £5/6K, comapared to around £3K (IIRC)for the blueprint, I think he's saying the engine is inherently fine, it's just that some parts are worn and need replacing. I would trust both TVR Power and Auto/TVRCraft to do the work, but if it were me, in this instance, I'd go for the TVR Power blueprint
I thought the Auto/TVRcraft route was £11K?
alloypearltam said:
So considering I've done 30,000 miles without any engine trouble and not had any extra costs during the past services should I consider myself to be:-
1. Lucky to have done 30,000 trouble-free miles.
2. Unlucky to have to fork out for the engine blueprinting.
3. Pissed off that the engine only has a life expectancy of 30,000 miles.
What does everyone else think?
All three. You might also consider the Auto/TVRCraft route. J
But that's no less than £5/6K, comapared to around £3K (IIRC)for the blueprint, I think he's saying the engine is inherently fine, it's just that some parts are worn and need replacing. I would trust both TVR Power and Auto/TVRCraft to do the work, but if it were me, in this instance, I'd go for the TVR Power blueprint
I thought the Auto/TVRcraft route was £11K?
I think that price is for both a top and bottom end rebuild (from data read only on P/H, I hasten to add), the 'standard' top end rebuild is usually quoted, which is around £5/6K, the blueprinted engine at TVR Power is £3500 (just over)
Cheers all for the comments.....
I don't really know what to think really: a bit of all three of the points I mentioned earlier.
Anyway the engine hasn't gone 'pop', I even drove it home after its service yesterday but have been told to keep it to an absolute minimum until it's booked in for the blueprinting in three weeks' time. As the Tamora's my only car it will involve a bit of inconvenience borrowing either my wife's 1995 Corsa or her 1960 Morris Minor to get to work!
But then I'll have a sorted engine and can start enjoying myself again just in time for Christmas!
Cheers..... Andrew
I don't really know what to think really: a bit of all three of the points I mentioned earlier.
Anyway the engine hasn't gone 'pop', I even drove it home after its service yesterday but have been told to keep it to an absolute minimum until it's booked in for the blueprinting in three weeks' time. As the Tamora's my only car it will involve a bit of inconvenience borrowing either my wife's 1995 Corsa or her 1960 Morris Minor to get to work!
But then I'll have a sorted engine and can start enjoying myself again just in time for Christmas!
Cheers..... Andrew
Alt Ive said I think 30,000 miles is pretty much bang on the money what to expect from a properly built Speed Six before you should have to rebuild. It isnt unreasonable for what the engine is.
The *only* other alternative to this is the £30k/engine route of Porsche and frankly A) TVR havent/dont have those kind of resources and B) TVR owners wouldnt stomach the costs.
That's life.
The *only* other alternative to this is the £30k/engine route of Porsche and frankly A) TVR havent/dont have those kind of resources and B) TVR owners wouldnt stomach the costs.
That's life.
sideways mostly said:
Factor in the bhp per litre,the rev range,the dry sump lubrication,the super light weight flywheel and other tricksy stuff like independently monitored inlet flow rates,the character of a big straight six ,the sound and the fact its the only high performance engine ( that I am aware of ) to be designed and built in England for ordinary road use and although it may be flawed it remains a magnificent effort which I am happy to support.
I am sorry its popped on you.
It would be great to have an engine of this peformance last as long as the Buick based cars but I do think this is a bit unrealistic-after all even the mighty M5 with is fabulously engineered V10 only acheives 100bhp per litre when you press the m button-which implies BMW are not confident it will last as long at full output as it does in vanila mode.
I'd be very pissed off, don't think a 30k life expectancy is at all reasonable for a modern car - Honda get 120bhp per litre out of the S2000 engine with a rev limit of 9,200, so I really can't get too excited about the TVR engine output as an excuse. Plenty of Honda owners doing high miles with their cars.
TBH I would like to be able to keep the Tam for a long time, it pretty much ticks all the "sportscar" boxes for me, but I would always have the niggle at the back of my mind that every now and then it will need a bloody engine rebuild! So I'm not sure what I will do, esp with prices so low at the moment.
chris watton said:
Please keep us updated with the blue print....
Will do Chris, hopefully in the week before Christmas.
I swapped from a Chimarea to the Tamora with my eyes wide open and nearly four years later I'm being presented with my first large unexpected bill. At least it's being done this way rather than going pop while driving.
In the past year I've thought about selling it but I'd only really want another Tamora which is why I've kept it: so this way for the price of the blueprinting I'm getting a new car in a way. I've also only had the Nitrons and Sports Exhaust for less than a year too!
So not all bad then!
Cheers..... Andrew
AlexRWD said:
Factor in the bhp per litre,the rev range,the dry sump lubrication,the super light weight flywheel and other tricksy stuff like independently monitored inlet flow rates,the character of a big straight six ,the sound and the fact its the only high performance engine ( that I am aware of ) to be designed and built in England for ordinary road use and although it may be flawed it remains a magnificent effort which I am happy to support.
I am sorry its popped on you.
It would be great to have an engine of this peformance last as long as the Buick based cars but I do think this is a bit unrealistic-after all even the mighty M5 with is fabulously engineered V10 only acheives 100bhp per litre when you press the m button-which implies BMW are not confident it will last as long at full output as it does in vanila mode.
I'd be very pissed off, don't think a 30k life expectancy is at all reasonable for a modern car - Honda get 120bhp per litre out of the S2000 engine with a rev limit of 9,200, so I really can't get too excited about the TVR engine output as an excuse. Plenty of Honda owners doing high miles with their cars.
TBH I would like to be able to keep the Tam for a long time, it pretty much ticks all the "sportscar" boxes for me, but I would always have the niggle at the back of my mind that every now and then it will need a bloody engine rebuild! So I'm not sure what I will do, esp with prices so low at the moment.
Grrrr...aaarrggh!! Do you read the posts where you are told why you cannot compare the 100BHP+ Honda 2ltr unit with the 3.6 and 4ltr 100BHP+ Speed Six units? In engineering terms they are orders of magnitude different. The only engines you can compare the S6 to in engineering terms are Ferrari's V8, the Porker flat six in the GT3 and the new Beemer V10...and that runs detuned to 400BHP most of the time. BMW got their 6 pot over the 100BHP limit from 3.2ltr upwards and they had trouble with that and that was after damn nr 20yrs of development. Doing 100BHP+ from NA engines above 3ltrs *reliably* is a lot different from down at 2ltrs. So, you might not get too excited about it, but you may want to understand why it is such an achievement and temper your expectations upon that knowledge.
ALT said:
Please keep us updated with the blue print....
Will do Chris, hopefully in the week before Christmas.
I swapped from a Chimarea to the Tamora with my eyes wide open and nearly four years later I'm being presented with my first large unexpected bill. At least it's being done this way rather than going pop while driving.
In the past year I've thought about selling it but I'd only really want another Tamora which is why I've kept it: so this way for the price of the blueprinting I'm getting a new car in a way. I've also only had the Nitrons and Sports Exhaust for less than a year too!
So not all bad then!
Cheers..... Andrew
So 4-5 week turnaround. From what people have said the 'waiting list' has come down somewhat. Good news.
Hope its rorty and goes like the clappers when you get it back (I assume it will need running in though ... something to do over Christmas).
DJC said:
Factor in the bhp per litre,the rev range,the dry sump lubrication,the super light weight flywheel and other tricksy stuff like independently monitored inlet flow rates,the character of a big straight six ,the sound and the fact its the only high performance engine ( that I am aware of ) to be designed and built in England for ordinary road use and although it may be flawed it remains a magnificent effort which I am happy to support.
I am sorry its popped on you.
It would be great to have an engine of this peformance last as long as the Buick based cars but I do think this is a bit unrealistic-after all even the mighty M5 with is fabulously engineered V10 only acheives 100bhp per litre when you press the m button-which implies BMW are not confident it will last as long at full output as it does in vanila mode.
I'd be very pissed off, don't think a 30k life expectancy is at all reasonable for a modern car - Honda get 120bhp per litre out of the S2000 engine with a rev limit of 9,200, so I really can't get too excited about the TVR engine output as an excuse. Plenty of Honda owners doing high miles with their cars.
TBH I would like to be able to keep the Tam for a long time, it pretty much ticks all the "sportscar" boxes for me, but I would always have the niggle at the back of my mind that every now and then it will need a bloody engine rebuild! So I'm not sure what I will do, esp with prices so low at the moment.
Grrrr...aaarrggh!! Do you read the posts where you are told why you cannot compare the 100BHP+ Honda 2ltr unit with the 3.6 and 4ltr 100BHP+ Speed Six units? In engineering terms they are orders of magnitude different. The only engines you can compare the S6 to in engineering terms are Ferrari's V8, the Porker flat six in the GT3 and the new Beemer V10...and that runs detuned to 400BHP most of the time. BMW got their 6 pot over the 100BHP limit from 3.2ltr upwards and they had trouble with that and that was after damn nr 20yrs of development. Doing 100BHP+ from NA engines above 3ltrs *reliably* is a lot different from down at 2ltrs. So, you might not get too excited about it, but you may want to understand why it is such an achievement and temper your expectations upon that knowledge.
Agreed, it isnt comparable, especially as most seem to forget that honda's cars dont have much torque... so the power output per litre is only high in BHP terms, not in torque terms. Equally, the S6 can rev to 9krpm, Peter Wheeler did it several times in the original press car, proving that there is strength in there (shortly after Tiff Needel took the piss with a downshift and lunched the engine.)
Another engine thats worth comparing to are decently set up AJP8 red rose's (4.5litres - 440bhp/390lb torque REAL figures for PH'ers cars) though neither of these have hit huge miles yet, I doubt they'll struggle to break 60k IMHO. The AJP8 though has now been proven to be a rather good engine, its a shame the S6 couldnt have been put through the same testing in terms of the Tuscan challenge/ more detuned versions of the engine out there.
I still dont believe 30k is acceptable though, I personally believe that even an engine as highly strung as both of TVR's finest (AJP8/S6) should be capable of 80k miles+. If it fails before hand regularily then it is a design issue, one that even Al Melling believes *was* there - not sure if it still is on the later cars.
I cant wait to see a few Sagaris/ T350 break 60k without a rebuild
it'd be time to put our order down methinks...!
DJC said:
Grrrr...aaarrggh!! Do you read the posts where you are told why you cannot compare the 100BHP+ Honda 2ltr unit with the 3.6 and 4ltr 100BHP+ Speed Six units? In engineering terms they are orders of magnitude different. The only engines you can compare the S6 to in engineering terms are Ferrari's V8, the Porker flat six in the GT3 and the new Beemer V10...and that runs detuned to 400BHP most of the time. BMW got their 6 pot over the 100BHP limit from 3.2ltr upwards and they had trouble with that and that was after damn nr 20yrs of development. Doing 100BHP+ from NA engines above 3ltrs *reliably* is a lot different from down at 2ltrs. So, you might not get too excited about it, but you may want to understand why it is such an achievement and temper your expectations upon that knowledge.
It is such a disappointment that the problems do not appear to be related to anything that you have mentioned above.
JR said:
Grrrr...aaarrggh!! Do you read the posts where you are told why you cannot compare the 100BHP+ Honda 2ltr unit with the 3.6 and 4ltr 100BHP+ Speed Six units? In engineering terms they are orders of magnitude different. The only engines you can compare the S6 to in engineering terms are Ferrari's V8, the Porker flat six in the GT3 and the new Beemer V10...and that runs detuned to 400BHP most of the time. BMW got their 6 pot over the 100BHP limit from 3.2ltr upwards and they had trouble with that and that was after damn nr 20yrs of development. Doing 100BHP+ from NA engines above 3ltrs *reliably* is a lot different from down at 2ltrs. So, you might not get too excited about it, but you may want to understand why it is such an achievement and temper your expectations upon that knowledge.
It is such a disappointment that the problems do not appear to be related to anything that you have mentioned above.
Oh for the love of Christ. Im well aware of the bloody problems of the damn engine, however that wasnt the point, I was addressing the "not too excited about the 100BHP/ltr stuff from TVR cos of Honda" pt he was making and illustrating to him quickly that there was more to it than meets the eye.
As for the lasting more than 30k miles, well there is a reasonable arguement to say it should rally reach 50k miles now after all the development from the 05 spec engines. Thats fair enough. Alt's engine isnt 05 spec, 03 or 04 I think he said, so 30k? Yes, a properly built one of that spec and standard should do 30k.
Now then, getting them to do *more* than 50k miles? Well Ill reiterate what I have said before...TVR make the engine a £30K engine a la Porsche and Ferrari or they have 20yrs developing it a la Porsche and BMW.
They have neither, ergo it aint going to last 60,70,80k miles or whatever. Something Ive also mentioned before, if anybody knows of one please tell me an F355/F360/F430 Ferrari V8 with more than 50,000 miles that hasnt had £5000 spent on the engine. I dont know of one. Ive also yet to see a GT3 come up for sale with over 50,000 miles on it. Im not saying they dont exist, I just havent seen one around with that much on.
Now what shouldnt happen is the engines going boom at 10-20k miles, but that happening is because of one or two things or probably both. Only one of which is related to Al Melling in any way.
DJC said:
Now then, getting them to do *more* than 50k miles? Well Ill reiterate what I have said before...TVR make the engine a £30K engine a la Porsche and Ferrari or they have 20yrs developing it a la Porsche and BMW.
They have neither, ergo it aint going to last 60,70,80k miles or whatever.
Nonsense, that doesn't follow at all; the AJP8 does last that sort of milage with a large capacity and without that cost or developement time.
Cost or capacity do not appear to be the problems significantly restricting the potential life of the speed six engine. It is frustrating that TVR seem to be so close to creating another high capacity, high specific output, and highly reliable engine (say 80K+ miles) but appear to be only tinkering with the problems instead of addressing them properly. IMHO the S6 is a better engine and has a far higher potential than you state.
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