evo - car of the year
Discussion
Really not a very good result for TVR - you always expect them to punch well above their weight in these sort of tests, I'm sure that's what we all grew up being impressed by, the much cheaper plucky lad from Blackpool taking on the fancier expensive exotics, and beating them! Plumb last in the group really isn't the sort of result they need to persuade people to overlook possible poor build quality and engine fragility 
Don't know how evo managed to get hold of such an under-powered Sag, as they themselves reckoned.
Don't know how evo managed to get hold of such an under-powered Sag, as they themselves reckoned.
I haven't read the article yet but my guess would be it's the cold temp limiter coming in. It stops my car from revving to high without sufficient water and oil temps.
If this is the case TVR could either have explained this to EVO or removed it completely and risked an engine failure. I like to think I would have chosen the latter and taken a risk but I'm not sure TVR could bare that to happen, it would make the anti S6 brigade just too happy!
My experience of multi car tests (I got involved in a test with Auto express once) is that the journos don't have much time (literally) for things like warming engines up, which of course we, as owners do.
If this is the case TVR could either have explained this to EVO or removed it completely and risked an engine failure. I like to think I would have chosen the latter and taken a risk but I'm not sure TVR could bare that to happen, it would make the anti S6 brigade just too happy!
My experience of multi car tests (I got involved in a test with Auto express once) is that the journos don't have much time (literally) for things like warming engines up, which of course we, as owners do.
TVR didn't give them the car, the TVR France dealer did - as referenced in the article. Obviously it was a bit sick and EVO were reasonably fair in saying so.
Comments about customers getting underpowered cars just like the one in this article are just rubbish, this is/was a dealer demo car. This car had one of two things wrong 1. Rev limiter - news to me that you can do this, but maybe TVR France fitted an aftermarket one, or there is something dealers can do to the ECU to stop it revving beyond a certain point 2. Something mechanical/electrical was wrong with the engine and TVR France dealer did not know this at time of handover (lets face it, they would not have given it to EVO knowing there was a fault).
Comments about customers getting underpowered cars just like the one in this article are just rubbish, this is/was a dealer demo car. This car had one of two things wrong 1. Rev limiter - news to me that you can do this, but maybe TVR France fitted an aftermarket one, or there is something dealers can do to the ECU to stop it revving beyond a certain point 2. Something mechanical/electrical was wrong with the engine and TVR France dealer did not know this at time of handover (lets face it, they would not have given it to EVO knowing there was a fault).
Trust me, the Sagaris at Bedford on saturday did not have 45bhp and 300 odd kgs on me, there was nothing in it in a straight line? In exactly the same place a Noble M400 left me for dead earlier in the year. I know that a friend with a GT3RS has also kept up with one in a straight line on bedfords back straight, again supposedly 25 bhp and 300kgs down. I don't doubt there are some cars out there with full power but from an in car comparison there must also be some very down on power or up on quoted weight, or both.
On a straight on a track there shouldn't be much in it either compared to an M3 CSL. A decent straight will show a speed range of 80-140 mph.
The weight difference is less important because most straights start at 80+ mph from a quick corner. Weight difference is more apparent when braking, cornering and accelerating from lower speeds.
Better aerodynamics of the M3 are starting to come into play over 80.
TVRs need to be revved hard to access the full bhp and not all owners like to do this, even on a track. The S6 won't produce more than the M3's 360bhp until after 7000 revs. So it's only in the last 1000 rpm that there's any difference.
For the extra money and technology and swanky tyres and track bias, I'd expect an M3 CSL to have beaten a Sagaris round a track. Doesn't sound like it did to me...
The weight difference is less important because most straights start at 80+ mph from a quick corner. Weight difference is more apparent when braking, cornering and accelerating from lower speeds.
Better aerodynamics of the M3 are starting to come into play over 80.
TVRs need to be revved hard to access the full bhp and not all owners like to do this, even on a track. The S6 won't produce more than the M3's 360bhp until after 7000 revs. So it's only in the last 1000 rpm that there's any difference.
For the extra money and technology and swanky tyres and track bias, I'd expect an M3 CSL to have beaten a Sagaris round a track. Doesn't sound like it did to me...
LOL, I was on normal road tyres and yes, I passed him as we came out of the chicane on the main straight after he got a blue flag. Bedford main straight in damp conditions was probably about 50mph out of the hairpin to 140mph+ so I'd have thought the weight would be a factor.
As for a 3 series having better aerodynamics? The TVR looks like it might have seen a wind tunnel? Either way it looks agressive as anything in the flesh.
Interesting you say that the engine needs to be revved hard, I guess that could be it, especially if he was new to the car, mind you my car doesn't make the full 355bhp until 7900 (rev limit is 8250) so isn't exactly what you'd call a lazy engine! The TVR should also have masses more torque - 4L compared to a 3.2?
Not trying to stir things up, just honestly suprised he didn't bugger off into the distance like the M400 did.
As for a 3 series having better aerodynamics? The TVR looks like it might have seen a wind tunnel? Either way it looks agressive as anything in the flesh.
Interesting you say that the engine needs to be revved hard, I guess that could be it, especially if he was new to the car, mind you my car doesn't make the full 355bhp until 7900 (rev limit is 8250) so isn't exactly what you'd call a lazy engine! The TVR should also have masses more torque - 4L compared to a 3.2?
Not trying to stir things up, just honestly suprised he didn't bugger off into the distance like the M400 did.
Yes guys, TVR have taken some flack with producing underpowered cars over recent years (the cerbera 4.2 and 4.5 have been prime examples). The sp6 has been reasonably on target from what I gather (barring sick engines!). Recent EVO article on tuscan convertible which was just about run in was only down 15bhp on its quoted 365bhp. However, if you look at most read-outs from rolling road days (I myself have seen at least half a dozen from sp6 engined cars over the last 2 years here on pistonheads, max torque really is at around 5000rpm, and most of the cars, once they get to 6500rpm have pretty much peaked power wise. Therefore, I don't think you have to rev the nuts off your car to put in quick lap times. From my experience of track days and at the pod, my red change up light is set to 6500 rpm, and by the time you've seen that, your revs have soared to 6800. More than enough I tell you.... BY that time your in the next gear, and very rarely have I seen 7000 rpm.
The M3 CSL as M12 Nathan says has peak power at a quoted 8250, somewhat higher than the sp6's (except the saggy which now revs to 8000 to get the quoted 400+ bhp. In terms of aerodynamics, the saggy will be worse due to its ?gurney wing at the back, but will have better downforce for cornering than the tuscan...
Anyway, off to buy EVO......
Catch ya later...
Simon
The M3 CSL as M12 Nathan says has peak power at a quoted 8250, somewhat higher than the sp6's (except the saggy which now revs to 8000 to get the quoted 400+ bhp. In terms of aerodynamics, the saggy will be worse due to its ?gurney wing at the back, but will have better downforce for cornering than the tuscan...
Anyway, off to buy EVO......
Catch ya later...
Simon
m12_nathan said:
Trust me, the Sagaris at Bedford on saturday did not have 45bhp and 300 odd kgs on me, there was nothing in it in a straight line? In exactly the same place a Noble M400 left me for dead earlier in the year. I know that a friend with a GT3RS has also kept up with one in a straight line on bedfords back straight, again supposedly 25 bhp and 300kgs down. I don't doubt there are some cars out there with full power but from an in car comparison there must also be some very down on power or up on quoted weight, or both.
Ah, I get you now, I thought you mean't all Sagaris' are like the one in the test - with major engine tuning problems - you mean the full 406 Blackpool horsepower a Sagaris is supposed to have. I agree with you there - my lowly 350 hp was equal to a 400hp Tuscan S in a straight line and a Cerbera 4.5 only slightly pulled away above 120mph (on tracks). I think TVR have started to use different figures with the new Tuscan II (need to check though).
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