anyone here who changed from T350c to Sagaris?
Discussion
uli said:
What about the experiences? What about the difference? Is it a big difference?
Did it last year, difficult to justify the cost. T350 has quicker steering, firmer supsension and slightly better ground clearance. The Sagaris has a more relaxed engine, safer handling but not as direct as the T350. Sagaris has better brakes than standard T350. No one asks you questions about the bodywork on the T350 that you find difficult to answer honestly.
Performance diference - real world....none.
I found the Sagaris to be more torquey (so the 4.0L engine then) and softer. Just as capable of crossing ground quickly as the T350 in my (incapable) hands, Although it bottomed out on a bumpy road where the T350 didn't. The T350 'feels' faster, thus delivering more of a buzz. The Sagaris is more accomplished and as a result delivered less of a buzz when I drove it at the same speed on the same roads.
I suspect the Sagaris is probably quicker, but I actually prefer the slighter sharpness of the T350. A T350 with a 4.0L 400hp engine would be ideal IMO.
Of course many prefer the agressive styling of the Sagaris.
>> Edited by targarama on Friday 10th February 20:46
I suspect the Sagaris is probably quicker, but I actually prefer the slighter sharpness of the T350. A T350 with a 4.0L 400hp engine would be ideal IMO.
Of course many prefer the agressive styling of the Sagaris.
>> Edited by targarama on Friday 10th February 20:46
Hi guys, if I understand it right,
by neglecting the more aggressive styling you think the sagaris is not really better than the T350c.
Maybe the lack of torque at the T350c at lower rev is disadvantageous.
Rumours say the Sagaris doesn't have real 400bhp, rather 380bhp, what's your opinion(information)?
Other rumours say that the 350bhp at T350c are real!???
I'm surprised that the pure driving the Sagaris has not a better feeling, although the setup of suspension shall be various.
Uli , Munich, germany
by neglecting the more aggressive styling you think the sagaris is not really better than the T350c.
Maybe the lack of torque at the T350c at lower rev is disadvantageous.
Rumours say the Sagaris doesn't have real 400bhp, rather 380bhp, what's your opinion(information)?
Other rumours say that the 350bhp at T350c are real!???
I'm surprised that the pure driving the Sagaris has not a better feeling, although the setup of suspension shall be various.
Uli , Munich, germany
uli said:
Rumours say the Sagaris doesn't have real 400bhp, rather 380bhp, what's your opinion(information)?
I wouldn't call it a rumour - have a look at what TVR themselves have now decided to quote as the Sagaris power output: (click on "Engine"
www.tvr.co.uk/specification_sagaris.php
Seems they don't have the confidence to quote 400 anymore, so 380bhp it is.
Slight case of misrespresentation when they first started selling these cars?
V interesting to hear the opinions of former T350 owners who have made the switch to Gristle - makes the T350 seem a sensible choice for anyone trying to decide between the 2, and a relative bargain!
>> Edited by AlexRWD on Saturday 11th February 17:58
>> Edited by AlexRWD on Saturday 11th February 17:59
OK, you've heard the negative views - this place amazes me some days 
maybe Uli would like to hear a lone positive voice in favour of the Sagaris from someone who had a t350, before he makes up his mind.
For one thing can we please lose this pathetic 'tvr really mislead us/disappointed us/see I told you the sagaris wasn't any quicker' crap.
Even if the Sagaris has 'only' 380bhp it posted 0-100 in 8.5 seconds in the Autocar road test. That's with a full tank of fuel and two people in it. The car is ballistically fast regardless of which very large power output you choose to quote. What really matters, afterall, is how fast it is. And the answer is properly flipping quick.
The t350 is only a second slower than the Sagaris to 100 but that is the perfomance differential between the Pagani Zonda S and the Sagaris. So the Sagaris is consistently faster in testing which was the object of the exercise and the point of dropping the 4.0S engine in. The endless repetition of the 'real world' performance argument is ultimately is an argument to drive a Clio Cup not a t350, in 'real world' performance (ie bumpy b-roads) the clio would be all over a t350 in unskilled hands. The thing is, were it not for the ground clearance (because the Sagaris is lower than the t350) so would a Sagaris, as it is a less edgy device to the t350. The sagaris also has stiffer suspension than the t350 but it doesn't feel it because it rides better and has a bespoke and very successful set up by bilstein and if rumours are true, the team who set up the Noble.
The genius of the Sagaris is the preservation of the intoxicating character of driving a TVR without the nervous edge. The steering is lightening quick, but it is less edgy than the traditional tvr hyperactive set up, as a result it has more feel, a more linear response to input and is more accurate as the car doesn't hunt camber as much. This makes 50 mph feel less dramatic but for making progress it's definite progress. I had no difficulty pulling away from a tuned 911 turbo on smooth very windy mountain roads descending from Chamonix last summer. The agility of the Sagaris made the 911 feel like a bus - really. A t350 down the same road would also be fantastic, no doubt, but my palms would have been sweatier. For some people the edginess is part of the adrenalin rush which I understand on an empty road but lack of confidence always means going slower. When it comes to putting manners on Porsches the extra 20% confidence in the Sagaris set up is worth a lot.
It's a grippier car too as it has big 255 boots alround. The grip is incredible as is the lack of body roll and the balance when it does finally let go - not a common thing for a high grip car.
The 4.0S engine is something I've come to appreciate more with time. It's true a back to back drive reveals the 4.0S to have a bit more power everywhere as opposed to loads more power up high in the rev range or loads more power down low. I'd describe it as getting going 1000 revs earlier (ie from 4k, not 5k). This is because it's been well engineered, race engineers like progressive broad spreads of power and that's what you get with the S6. No whizz bang, yee har, v-tec, turbo moment just a linear build in thrust, noise and pace. In honesty it's essential for so much power in such a light car. With the long travel throttle this makes for an ability to meter out the precise number of bhp you need for any given situation. In this respect TVR do this better than anyone. Sure that also applies to the t350 and the talk of 'no torque' is utter rubbish. Those comments are only made in comparison to a rover v8 which was designed for nothing else but low down torque. The S6 has bags of torque regardless of capacity, yes the 4.0S has more but both are designed for large bhp at high rpm, which they deliver in spades.
But I've learned the real plus of the 4.0S is the way it works with the CR gearbox. I think the CR box would blunt the acceleration of the 3.6 far more. The S rips through the titanic 100+ second gear like the 3.6 does the standard box. From a subjective point of view it would feel similarly accelerative (hence a lot of the comments here about the Sagaris not feeling faster) but that is not comparing apples with apples. The easiest way to make a car feel quicker is drop the gearing. The CR box is an increase in gearing and I think needs the 4S engine to make the best of it. Second gear in the CR box is the same as third in the standard box. Now get in a sagaris in second and compare it with a t350 in third. Still think the t350 feels quicker? The autocar time of 1-100 in 8.5 was done with the CR box as it cuts out a gearchange to reach the ton.
Regarding looks you're on your own there, personally I adore both cars - the Slag for it's aggression and flair and the t350 for its purity, simplicity and discretion. I do however hope one day to finish the Sagaris's styling off by cutting out the vents as originally intended.
My experience does support the idea that the Sagaris is better built. My only criticism is the bonnet design which I feel still needs rethinking by TVR, other than that it's been a fantastic thing to own and thrills and impresses in equal measure, every single time I drive it - and that is a new thing for TVR.
If you like the looks of the Sagaris I can assure you, you'll be glad you went for it. If you prefer the looks of the t350, get a nice second hand one. It's the perfomance bargain of the century.
rant over
>> Edited by the pits on Monday 13th February 10:28
maybe Uli would like to hear a lone positive voice in favour of the Sagaris from someone who had a t350, before he makes up his mind.
For one thing can we please lose this pathetic 'tvr really mislead us/disappointed us/see I told you the sagaris wasn't any quicker' crap.
Even if the Sagaris has 'only' 380bhp it posted 0-100 in 8.5 seconds in the Autocar road test. That's with a full tank of fuel and two people in it. The car is ballistically fast regardless of which very large power output you choose to quote. What really matters, afterall, is how fast it is. And the answer is properly flipping quick.
The t350 is only a second slower than the Sagaris to 100 but that is the perfomance differential between the Pagani Zonda S and the Sagaris. So the Sagaris is consistently faster in testing which was the object of the exercise and the point of dropping the 4.0S engine in. The endless repetition of the 'real world' performance argument is ultimately is an argument to drive a Clio Cup not a t350, in 'real world' performance (ie bumpy b-roads) the clio would be all over a t350 in unskilled hands. The thing is, were it not for the ground clearance (because the Sagaris is lower than the t350) so would a Sagaris, as it is a less edgy device to the t350. The sagaris also has stiffer suspension than the t350 but it doesn't feel it because it rides better and has a bespoke and very successful set up by bilstein and if rumours are true, the team who set up the Noble.
The genius of the Sagaris is the preservation of the intoxicating character of driving a TVR without the nervous edge. The steering is lightening quick, but it is less edgy than the traditional tvr hyperactive set up, as a result it has more feel, a more linear response to input and is more accurate as the car doesn't hunt camber as much. This makes 50 mph feel less dramatic but for making progress it's definite progress. I had no difficulty pulling away from a tuned 911 turbo on smooth very windy mountain roads descending from Chamonix last summer. The agility of the Sagaris made the 911 feel like a bus - really. A t350 down the same road would also be fantastic, no doubt, but my palms would have been sweatier. For some people the edginess is part of the adrenalin rush which I understand on an empty road but lack of confidence always means going slower. When it comes to putting manners on Porsches the extra 20% confidence in the Sagaris set up is worth a lot.
It's a grippier car too as it has big 255 boots alround. The grip is incredible as is the lack of body roll and the balance when it does finally let go - not a common thing for a high grip car.
The 4.0S engine is something I've come to appreciate more with time. It's true a back to back drive reveals the 4.0S to have a bit more power everywhere as opposed to loads more power up high in the rev range or loads more power down low. I'd describe it as getting going 1000 revs earlier (ie from 4k, not 5k). This is because it's been well engineered, race engineers like progressive broad spreads of power and that's what you get with the S6. No whizz bang, yee har, v-tec, turbo moment just a linear build in thrust, noise and pace. In honesty it's essential for so much power in such a light car. With the long travel throttle this makes for an ability to meter out the precise number of bhp you need for any given situation. In this respect TVR do this better than anyone. Sure that also applies to the t350 and the talk of 'no torque' is utter rubbish. Those comments are only made in comparison to a rover v8 which was designed for nothing else but low down torque. The S6 has bags of torque regardless of capacity, yes the 4.0S has more but both are designed for large bhp at high rpm, which they deliver in spades.
But I've learned the real plus of the 4.0S is the way it works with the CR gearbox. I think the CR box would blunt the acceleration of the 3.6 far more. The S rips through the titanic 100+ second gear like the 3.6 does the standard box. From a subjective point of view it would feel similarly accelerative (hence a lot of the comments here about the Sagaris not feeling faster) but that is not comparing apples with apples. The easiest way to make a car feel quicker is drop the gearing. The CR box is an increase in gearing and I think needs the 4S engine to make the best of it. Second gear in the CR box is the same as third in the standard box. Now get in a sagaris in second and compare it with a t350 in third. Still think the t350 feels quicker? The autocar time of 1-100 in 8.5 was done with the CR box as it cuts out a gearchange to reach the ton.
Regarding looks you're on your own there, personally I adore both cars - the Slag for it's aggression and flair and the t350 for its purity, simplicity and discretion. I do however hope one day to finish the Sagaris's styling off by cutting out the vents as originally intended.
My experience does support the idea that the Sagaris is better built. My only criticism is the bonnet design which I feel still needs rethinking by TVR, other than that it's been a fantastic thing to own and thrills and impresses in equal measure, every single time I drive it - and that is a new thing for TVR.
If you like the looks of the Sagaris I can assure you, you'll be glad you went for it. If you prefer the looks of the t350, get a nice second hand one. It's the perfomance bargain of the century.
rant over
>> Edited by the pits on Monday 13th February 10:28
Pits - I agree with much that you have said. I'm not trying to be negative, its just a lot more money for xx more performance/handling/whatever. But of course now a few month old Sagaris can be picked up for the price of a loaded T350.
One question though - out of interest:
If a T350 is a second slower to 100mph than a Sagaris, and the Sagaris has the close ratio box to enable 100mph in second, then what would the T350 do with a CR box and what would a Sagaris do with a 'normal' box (esp. since the CR is an option anyway I believe).
Has the T350 been independently timed at 9.5 secs or so? I believe AutoCar timed one to 100 in 10.x seconds, the same as a Gallardo at the same 'event' (anyone recall this?).
One question though - out of interest:
If a T350 is a second slower to 100mph than a Sagaris, and the Sagaris has the close ratio box to enable 100mph in second, then what would the T350 do with a CR box and what would a Sagaris do with a 'normal' box (esp. since the CR is an option anyway I believe).
Has the T350 been independently timed at 9.5 secs or so? I believe AutoCar timed one to 100 in 10.x seconds, the same as a Gallardo at the same 'event' (anyone recall this?).
Personally, I think the Sagaris a better car in almost every respect, pure and simple.
It's quicker, handles better (and to my eyes) looks better.
However, if you were making a choice considering your wallet, then with the current market, an 05 t350C would offer more value than any Sagaris.
D
It's quicker, handles better (and to my eyes) looks better.
However, if you were making a choice considering your wallet, then with the current market, an 05 t350C would offer more value than any Sagaris.
D
Cheers Maddog, if only I could match your pace round the kart track! I fear the Tamora in your hands would be more than a match for me in the Sagaris on the road too! Sadly I'm not going to get many club 100 trackdays this year due to working in France but hope to find something similar over here.
Back to thread, oh yeah, the Sagaris is mega but it does feel different to other TVRs and for most it takes more than one testdrive to get used to it and to start to understand what TVR have done with it. I find people who haven't driven a TVR before love it and that those who don't take to it immediately are often previous TVR owners. From a TVR nut's point of view it's somehow less TVR without the nervous edge but for those coming from other marques the Sagaris is wild ride and they often cite all the classic tvr virtues - intense, involving driving experience, lightening steering, great race car pedals, great gearbox, lovely aluminium switchgear, cool dash, no door handles, great noise and massive, hair raising performance.
>> Edited by the pits on Monday 13th February 11:59
Back to thread, oh yeah, the Sagaris is mega but it does feel different to other TVRs and for most it takes more than one testdrive to get used to it and to start to understand what TVR have done with it. I find people who haven't driven a TVR before love it and that those who don't take to it immediately are often previous TVR owners. From a TVR nut's point of view it's somehow less TVR without the nervous edge but for those coming from other marques the Sagaris is wild ride and they often cite all the classic tvr virtues - intense, involving driving experience, lightening steering, great race car pedals, great gearbox, lovely aluminium switchgear, cool dash, no door handles, great noise and massive, hair raising performance.
>> Edited by the pits on Monday 13th February 11:59
I can agree with both Pits & Targaram here.
I had a T350c, which I though was an amazing car. In fact its only since I got rid of it that I realised what a piece of kit it actually was.
Back in summer last year I was looking at changing it for one of numerous cars. GT3/GT2 or Sagaris was the shortlist. In the end I put a deposit on a GT2 (which I subsequently cancelled), but I think the reason for this was that the other 2 were somewhat not quite what I had hoped them to be.
The Sagaris I drove was new & therefore couldn't be revved fully, however I could instantly tell it was a step up from the T350. But, for £15,000 so it should be. In the end I felt the extra performance wasn't worth the extra money. A well sorted T350 would compete with a Sag in real life conditions 99% of the time, and therefore the choice of which you buy is purely looks & wallet size.
What TVR need to do is add a supercharger, get it to nearer 500bhp & charge an additional 10k, then it would be the car it deserves to be.
I had a T350c, which I though was an amazing car. In fact its only since I got rid of it that I realised what a piece of kit it actually was.
Back in summer last year I was looking at changing it for one of numerous cars. GT3/GT2 or Sagaris was the shortlist. In the end I put a deposit on a GT2 (which I subsequently cancelled), but I think the reason for this was that the other 2 were somewhat not quite what I had hoped them to be.
The Sagaris I drove was new & therefore couldn't be revved fully, however I could instantly tell it was a step up from the T350. But, for £15,000 so it should be. In the end I felt the extra performance wasn't worth the extra money. A well sorted T350 would compete with a Sag in real life conditions 99% of the time, and therefore the choice of which you buy is purely looks & wallet size.
What TVR need to do is add a supercharger, get it to nearer 500bhp & charge an additional 10k, then it would be the car it deserves to be.
hobo said:
In the end I felt the extra performance wasn't worth the extra money. A well sorted T350 would compete with a Sag in real life conditions 99% of the time, and therefore the choice of which you buy is purely looks & wallet size.
Agree.
Pits, youre obviously smitten with your Sagaris, I normally agree with quite a lot of what you say - but lightening steering - you're having a laugh.
>> Edited by Daftlad on Monday 13th February 12:14
A viewpoint from one of us non-t350/Sagaris owning lurkers:
A sagaris has the looks & presence to be the sort of machine i would aspire to, & very much feel will be the logical successor to my Cerb. The t350 may well have all the competance ( just as the Tamora has ), but i just doesnt hit that spot in the way the Sagaris does. Just my humble opinion
A sagaris has the looks & presence to be the sort of machine i would aspire to, & very much feel will be the logical successor to my Cerb. The t350 may well have all the competance ( just as the Tamora has ), but i just doesnt hit that spot in the way the Sagaris does. Just my humble opinion
Daftlad said:
In the end I felt the extra performance wasn't worth the extra money. A well sorted T350 would compete with a Sag in real life conditions 99% of the time, and therefore the choice of which you buy is purely looks & wallet size.
Agree.
Pits, youre obviously smitten with your Sagaris, I normally agree with quite a lot of what you say - but lightening steering - you're having a laugh.
>> Edited by Daftlad on Monday 13th February 12:14
As mentioned above, people who haven't driven a TVR before are quick to mention how responsive the Sagaris steering is. 911s really do feel like buses in comparison and if you really don't think the Sagaris is quick steering, don't ever drive a Ferrari F355, you'll be shocked. The Sagaris changes direction quicker than a greased politician. What's unusual is such agility without nervousness.
the pits said:
In the end I felt the extra performance wasn't worth the extra money. A well sorted T350 would compete with a Sag in real life conditions 99% of the time, and therefore the choice of which you buy is purely looks & wallet size.
Agree.
Pits, youre obviously smitten with your Sagaris, I normally agree with quite a lot of what you say - but lightening steering - you're having a laugh.
>> Edited by Daftlad on Monday 13th February 12:14
As mentioned above, people who haven't driven a TVR before are quick to mention how responsive the Sagaris steering is. 911s really do feel like buses in comparison and if you really don't think the Sagaris is quick steering, don't ever drive a Ferrari F355, you'll be shocked. The Sagaris changes direction quicker than a greased politician. What's unusual is such agility without nervousness.
Really excellent contributions, hopefully there will be some more. I'm in the position of considering moving up to a Sagaris from a T350 but now I have an '05 engine in the 350, I'm reluctant to let it go. The better deal would seem to be to pick up a 12/18 month Sagaris and not eat all the depreciation.
the pits said:
In the end I felt the extra performance wasn't worth the extra money. A well sorted T350 would compete with a Sag in real life conditions 99% of the time, and therefore the choice of which you buy is purely looks & wallet size.
Agree.
Pits, youre obviously smitten with your Sagaris, I normally agree with quite a lot of what you say - but lightening steering - you're having a laugh.
>> Edited by Daftlad on Monday 13th February 12:14
As mentioned above, people who haven't driven a TVR before are quick to mention how responsive the Sagaris steering is. 911s really do feel like buses in comparison and if you really don't think the Sagaris is quick steering, don't ever drive a Ferrari F355, you'll be shocked. The Sagaris changes direction quicker than a greased politician. What's unusual is such agility without nervousness.
I'm sure people who haven't driven a TVR before do think they steer quickly. Some peolpe who have may say that they lack feel and are set up to be safe.
The terms quick and responsive are both relative terms. Relative to a T350, which was the original posters querie, the Sagaris steering is not as quick or responsive - it is however, set up "safely". (understeer).
While I'm posting, your comments regarding CR box gearing were inaccuarte and misleading. When posting to try and influence or advise, accuarcy is important - I think your genuine respect and admiration for your car got in the way a bit...
>> Edited by Daftlad on Monday 13th February 13:44
Still waiting to feel any understeer in ten months of ownership.
Again the 'understeer' and 'safe' set up terms are very much relative.
The CR box is higher geared than standard (therefore blunts acceleration without a power increase). It does do over 100 in second. The car did 0-100 in 8.5 secs with a CR box. If you know any different, pray tell.
Evo tested a t350 which did 0-100 in 10 seconds dead. I can't find an autocar figure for the t350.
Again the 'understeer' and 'safe' set up terms are very much relative.
The CR box is higher geared than standard (therefore blunts acceleration without a power increase). It does do over 100 in second. The car did 0-100 in 8.5 secs with a CR box. If you know any different, pray tell.
Evo tested a t350 which did 0-100 in 10 seconds dead. I can't find an autocar figure for the t350.
the pits said:
Still waiting to feel any understeer in ten months of ownership.
Again the 'understeer' and 'safe' set up terms are very much relative.
The CR box is higher geared than standard (therefore blunts acceleration without a power increase). It does do over 100 in second. The car did 0-100 in 8.5 secs with a CR box. If you know any different, pray tell.
Evo tested a t350 which did 0-100 in 10 seconds dead. I can't find an autocar figure for the t350.
Pits,
Understeer on track only.
When quoting and comparing pure statistics dont forget that the autocar road test Sagris had more rubber on the road and much softer tyres than the standard car. All tests I've seen on the T350 were on F1s.
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