Sagaris at the 'ring
Discussion
I'll try and keep this brief but I'm not promising anything!
Just spent two days at the Nurburgring with my car, which many of you will know, I rather like. Naturally enough its causing a bit of a stir here as you might expect but I'm really getting sick of the reliability jibes. Everyone who approaches me goes `gorgeous car, but you're brave coming all this way' har har har etc. to fade. Time to drown it out by firing up the gurgly six. That normally shuts them up! I know it's only light hearted and I know that kind of mud sticks forever (eg italian cars and rust) and maybe TVRs of yesteryear did something to deserve this reputation but the Sagaris hasn't. This stuff is hurting new car sales so I feels it's important to let people know that in my personal experience TVR really have delivered with their new cars.
It is so accomplished, so polished, even around the nurburgring (trickiest, most demanding circuit in the world bar none) it's hard to believe that TVR made it with their modest budgets, and frankly can offer it for under 50k.
Someone on here (sorry, forgotten your name!) has mentioned that the Sagaris understeers. I challenged him on this and he said 'well on the track it does'. Not to mince words, this is utter balls, and I suggest he adjust his driving technique. Only in the pissing rain on a greasy 'ring (ooer) with spun out and crashed cars littering the place, did I feel a whiff of understeer through the (seriously DJC) delectable steering. Gentle squeeze of the long travel throttle balances it out and a drifting we go. The car is so balanced I even managed to drift round the entire right hander before karussel. I was showboating for my brother (behind incedentally) in his 996tt. The car made me look much better than I am. I almost couldn't believe I'd pulled it off and then got too greedy with the throttle in search of an even bigger angle of dangle and put myself into a much deserved tank slapper! But no spin.
In the interests of objectivity, the only issues for a really quick lap are ground clearance. Karussell makes scrapy noises and so do some of the bumpy sections under braking. Then again the 'ring is the worst track around for this and my escort cosworth used to scrape its splitter at the bottom of paddock hill (at Brands Hatch) so part of it is par for the course with low splitters. Its the sort of thing owners car about and racing drivers don't.
The grip the car generates was impressing everyone who came out in it, and that's in the wet and in the dry. Plenty of credit must go to Goodyear for this I guess. Credit also to the aussie in the black mk1 tuscan S that caused me to get my arse in gear just to keep up with him. It just shows you what these cars are capable of in skilled hands.
I know people groan when I mention my bro's 996TT but he was kind enough to let me have a lap in the wet. It is beautifully made, very solid, incredibly quick out of the slower corners and up the hills (it does have 550bhp and 4wd) but it understeered chronicly before a snapping into oversteer, saved only by the psm. With psm off, my bro could handle slides in 2nd gear but not 3rd. And that's with all the 4wd wizardry the germans can throw at it.
It brings me back to reputation. Of course, all just in my opinion, the bad rep of the Sagaris couldn't be less deserved, neither is the massively high esteem the 911 is held in.
Despite the comedy OTT styling, the sagaris is a serious and accomplished drivers car for road and track. I only hope more real driving enthusiasts get to try them for themselves.
>> Edited by the pits on Tuesday 2nd May 08:44
Just spent two days at the Nurburgring with my car, which many of you will know, I rather like. Naturally enough its causing a bit of a stir here as you might expect but I'm really getting sick of the reliability jibes. Everyone who approaches me goes `gorgeous car, but you're brave coming all this way' har har har etc. to fade. Time to drown it out by firing up the gurgly six. That normally shuts them up! I know it's only light hearted and I know that kind of mud sticks forever (eg italian cars and rust) and maybe TVRs of yesteryear did something to deserve this reputation but the Sagaris hasn't. This stuff is hurting new car sales so I feels it's important to let people know that in my personal experience TVR really have delivered with their new cars.
It is so accomplished, so polished, even around the nurburgring (trickiest, most demanding circuit in the world bar none) it's hard to believe that TVR made it with their modest budgets, and frankly can offer it for under 50k.
Someone on here (sorry, forgotten your name!) has mentioned that the Sagaris understeers. I challenged him on this and he said 'well on the track it does'. Not to mince words, this is utter balls, and I suggest he adjust his driving technique. Only in the pissing rain on a greasy 'ring (ooer) with spun out and crashed cars littering the place, did I feel a whiff of understeer through the (seriously DJC) delectable steering. Gentle squeeze of the long travel throttle balances it out and a drifting we go. The car is so balanced I even managed to drift round the entire right hander before karussel. I was showboating for my brother (behind incedentally) in his 996tt. The car made me look much better than I am. I almost couldn't believe I'd pulled it off and then got too greedy with the throttle in search of an even bigger angle of dangle and put myself into a much deserved tank slapper! But no spin.
In the interests of objectivity, the only issues for a really quick lap are ground clearance. Karussell makes scrapy noises and so do some of the bumpy sections under braking. Then again the 'ring is the worst track around for this and my escort cosworth used to scrape its splitter at the bottom of paddock hill (at Brands Hatch) so part of it is par for the course with low splitters. Its the sort of thing owners car about and racing drivers don't.
The grip the car generates was impressing everyone who came out in it, and that's in the wet and in the dry. Plenty of credit must go to Goodyear for this I guess. Credit also to the aussie in the black mk1 tuscan S that caused me to get my arse in gear just to keep up with him. It just shows you what these cars are capable of in skilled hands.
I know people groan when I mention my bro's 996TT but he was kind enough to let me have a lap in the wet. It is beautifully made, very solid, incredibly quick out of the slower corners and up the hills (it does have 550bhp and 4wd) but it understeered chronicly before a snapping into oversteer, saved only by the psm. With psm off, my bro could handle slides in 2nd gear but not 3rd. And that's with all the 4wd wizardry the germans can throw at it.
It brings me back to reputation. Of course, all just in my opinion, the bad rep of the Sagaris couldn't be less deserved, neither is the massively high esteem the 911 is held in.
Despite the comedy OTT styling, the sagaris is a serious and accomplished drivers car for road and track. I only hope more real driving enthusiasts get to try them for themselves.
>> Edited by the pits on Tuesday 2nd May 08:44
Actually old boy funny you should mention the steering! I wasnt going to go back into the old debate, but as you have brought it up ... 
During the hack about France, we also got some pretty heavy rain and it was then during the rain and trying to just remain doing about 70ish k's on the A-route or a proper RN, that I knew I was right about the steering. There is absolutely no feel whatsoever once it starts to rain properly and you are utterly relying on feeling through the rim what is going on under the front tyres. Through my arse I could feel the rears, everytime they spun a little, lost traction, regained it, could feel everything...though the fronts, not a sausage. The rack is just too assisted to allow it and in heavy rain it fully brought home my misgivings about it. In the dry I dont have a problem with it these days, I have got used it and rarely indulge in anything require delicate feeling through the wheel, but just trying to keep her straight and safe in teeming rain...I loathed it.
During the hack about France, we also got some pretty heavy rain and it was then during the rain and trying to just remain doing about 70ish k's on the A-route or a proper RN, that I knew I was right about the steering. There is absolutely no feel whatsoever once it starts to rain properly and you are utterly relying on feeling through the rim what is going on under the front tyres. Through my arse I could feel the rears, everytime they spun a little, lost traction, regained it, could feel everything...though the fronts, not a sausage. The rack is just too assisted to allow it and in heavy rain it fully brought home my misgivings about it. In the dry I dont have a problem with it these days, I have got used it and rarely indulge in anything require delicate feeling through the wheel, but just trying to keep her straight and safe in teeming rain...I loathed it.
the pits said:
Someone on here (sorry, forgotten your name!) has mentioned that the Sagaris understeers. I challenged him on this and he said 'well on the track it does'. Not to mince words, this is utter balls, and I suggest he adjust his driving technique.
Thanks for the advice, I'll book some driving instruction today.
Can you sugest a basic level of instruction for a driver that obviously hasn't got a clue?
DJC said:
There is absolutely no feel whatsoever once it starts to rain properly and you are utterly relying on feeling through the rim what is going on under the front tyres. Through my arse I could feel the rears, everytime they spun a little, lost traction, regained it, could feel everything...though the fronts, not a sausage. The rack is just too assisted to allow it and in heavy rain it fully brought home my misgivings about it. In the dry I dont have a problem with it these days, I have got used it and rarely indulge in anything require delicate feeling through the wheel, but just trying to keep her straight and safe in teeming rain...I loathed it.
DJC Sorry mate but you don't half talk P15H.
Obviously you are one of these guys who buys a powerful car and think you can drive flatout all of the time. Of course the car is going to slide when it, as you put it "starts to rain properly"???? Have you looked at your tyre's, pressures etc. I have an M3CSL which is crap when it "starts to rain properly" but if you change the tyres it does might handle better. My TVR was quick in the rain and well planted, but that goes with experience. I also have driven a Lambo where it just had to see a rain cloud and it wanted back in the garage.
You have to learn how to drive the Sagaris, it's a good car, very quick and also quite forgiving. But, if you are a crap driver......................., well, I look forward to your next post!
Dookie said:
There is absolutely no feel whatsoever once it starts to rain properly and you are utterly relying on feeling through the rim what is going on under the front tyres. Through my arse I could feel the rears, everytime they spun a little, lost traction, regained it, could feel everything...though the fronts, not a sausage. The rack is just too assisted to allow it and in heavy rain it fully brought home my misgivings about it. In the dry I dont have a problem with it these days, I have got used it and rarely indulge in anything require delicate feeling through the wheel, but just trying to keep her straight and safe in teeming rain...I loathed it.
DJC Sorry mate but you don't half talk P15H.
Obviously you are one of these guys who buys a powerful car and think you can drive flatout all of the time. Of course the car is going to slide when it, as you put it "starts to rain properly"???? Have you looked at your tyre's, pressures etc. I have an M3CSL which is crap when it "starts to rain properly" but if you change the tyres it does might handle better. My TVR was quick in the rain and well planted, but that goes with experience. I also have driven a Lambo where it just had to see a rain cloud and it wanted back in the garage.
You have to learn how to drive the Sagaris, it's a good car, very quick and also quite forgiving. But, if you are a crap driver......................., well, I look forward to your next post!
Proper rain and cup tyres is fun isn't it, especially if all you want to do is drive home when you are tired
there was properly loads of feel from the steering and front end in the pissing rain round the nurburgring. And incredibly little understeer. That's my car anyway. Sorry you aren't getting it from your cars. I was genuinely impressed at the 'ring both in the dry and perhaps even more in the wet. So was everyone who drove or rode in it.
The car's back in Paris now having been to Spa for two days. It's been flawless over the whole trip without a single failure of any sort. I'm even developing a bit more faith in the bonnet. It's like a 'weeble'. It wobbles but it doesn't fall down!
The car's back in Paris now having been to Spa for two days. It's been flawless over the whole trip without a single failure of any sort. I'm even developing a bit more faith in the bonnet. It's like a 'weeble'. It wobbles but it doesn't fall down!
the pits said:
there was properly loads of feel from the steering and front end in the pissing rain round the nurburgring. And incredibly little understeer. That's my car anyway. Sorry you aren't getting it from your cars. I was genuinely impressed at the 'ring both in the dry and perhaps even more in the wet.
Good, I am pleased. Must get mine sorted, but I'll get some driver training first.
Dookie said:
There is absolutely no feel whatsoever once it starts to rain properly and you are utterly relying on feeling through the rim what is going on under the front tyres. Through my arse I could feel the rears, everytime they spun a little, lost traction, regained it, could feel everything...though the fronts, not a sausage. The rack is just too assisted to allow it and in heavy rain it fully brought home my misgivings about it. In the dry I dont have a problem with it these days, I have got used it and rarely indulge in anything require delicate feeling through the wheel, but just trying to keep her straight and safe in teeming rain...I loathed it.
DJC Sorry mate but you don't half talk P15H.
Obviously you are one of these guys who buys a powerful car and think you can drive flatout all of the time. Of course the car is going to slide when it, as you put it "starts to rain properly"???? Have you looked at your tyre's, pressures etc. I have an M3CSL which is crap when it "starts to rain properly" but if you change the tyres it does might handle better. My TVR was quick in the rain and well planted, but that goes with experience. I also have driven a Lambo where it just had to see a rain cloud and it wanted back in the garage.
You have to learn how to drive the Sagaris, it's a good car, very quick and also quite forgiving. But, if you are a crap driver......................., well, I look forward to your next post!
Wtf?
Drive flatout all the time? Yeah, because I mean that's all my postings are ever about arent they? A grand total of what...4 or 5 out of a cpl of 1000 have been about enthusiastic driving, I even know which individual posts they were. My Sagaris is my daily driver to and from work aswell as my touring car. Im from bloody Blackpool and Ive been brought up in rwd/ 2 seater sports cars all my life, in fact bar the knackered disel fiesta I bought last yr, ive never owned any other type of car (the Rover is the fiancees). My tyres are absolutely fine and the pressure? Let me get this right, 1000 miles into a holiday, comming home, fully loaded, with your fiancee in the car, its pouring rain outside...and you want to advocate parking up, getting the pressure monitor out of the car and going round them all, checking and releasing the pressure? Esp given previously they had been indicating nothing wrong?
OK, back in the real world and that real world *does not* include a soaking wet David pratting about with his wheels and tyres, getting back in the car next to a nice dry fiancee who just wants to get to the chunnel and is actually quite happy to go at a relatively sedate pace.
You seem to have misunderstood the post utterly and more to the point yer picking the wrong guy to score "driving properly" pts again. Ive a lass next to me in the passenger seat who utterly forbids that kind of thing, driving to her is simply A-B, which means that when Im with her, driving to me is simply A-B and "properly" is getting there in one piece, on time and with no drama or fuss. Sorry for not being Alpha male here.
Daftlad said:
there was properly loads of feel from the steering and front end in the pissing rain round the nurburgring. And incredibly little understeer. That's my car anyway. Sorry you aren't getting it from your cars. I was genuinely impressed at the 'ring both in the dry and perhaps even more in the wet.
Good, I am pleased. Must get mine sorted, but I'll get some driver training first.
A touch insecure to keep on about the driving lessons, n'est pas?
What grounds could you possibly have to think you're beyond improvement from driver training? Or for that matter know anything about me or my ability as a driver. For all you know I really could teach you a thing or two. Then again who knows, maybe 'Daftlad' is a pseudonym for 'Fernando Alonso'.
In fact, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about the 'too much understeer on the track' thing until I took my car on the track. Having done that I know that it is balls. On my car at least. I can't speak for your car or the condition of your tyres, or your driving style but I can only understand your comment if one or more of these things is different.
I did have an experience of chronic understeer once in my Subaru 22B. In the morning of a trackday in it around Brands Hatch GP it was stunningly grippy at the front end. By the afternoon when the track temp had soared and my front tyres had melted the understeer just grew and grew. Had I just jumped in the car in the afternoon I'd have told the world how dreadful the understeer is on 22Bs. And I'm not sure how fair that would be on an otherwise brilliant handling car.
the pits said:
What grounds could you possibly have to think you're beyond improvement from driver training?
I'm not and I don’t believe I ever said I was. Like I posted previously, I'm glad you're happy with your car and that you had a good time at the Ring.
If you don’t think your car understeers fine. You may even be right about my car and maybe I'd not considered tyre temperature, pressures or condition, then again, it may not be me thats talking bollox, who knows?
rpa.janwell said:
Pits/Daftlad, due off to the 'Ring on Thursday. Still no firther ahead with insurance - any ideas?
Richard,
What is the issue?
Not racing, not a rally, a trial or a competition. I've not considerd the ring to be anything but a public toll road and never had a problem.......but then again, I've never had an accident there yet.
I'm obviouly missing something, cos I've seen lots of folk post on here believing it to be an issue.
My insurance policy (Privilege) specifically does not cover “derestricted toll roads”. Which the ‘ring certainly seems to be. Some have argued that there are speed limits at the start finish. So what, the rest of it is derestricted.
I have seen other insurance documents which do not cover anything on a motor racing circuit, regardless of whether it’s a track day or not. The ‘Ring is undoubtedly a motor racing circuit at times, but it also a public road – although I’m not sure whether it’s owned by the state or by a private organisation (Nurburgring GmbH?), in which case maybe it’s not a proper public road. I expect on balance that you’d be OK on one of the public days, but insurance companies will wriggle out of anything if they can and I wouldn’t want to find out the hard way.
And you must have 3rd party cover. What if you have a crash which is your fault and injure somebody? I don’t fancy trying to explain to the German police why my insurance company has decided I’m not covered.
My view is that if your insurance small print doesn’t exclude “derestricted toll roads” or motor racing circuits then you’re OK. But when I looking into it I could not find any insurers who said they would cover the ‘Ring. I think a lot of Brits who go their either don’t realise they’re not insured or stick their heads in the sand over the issue.
A company called Competition Car Insurance would cover me, but wanted £1069 for 3 days with a 10% excess
And IIRC this only covered my car not 3rd party so wasn’t really much use.
Daftlad, please can you let me know who are you insured with? If they do really provide comprehensive cover for the ‘Ring I will definitely be talking to them when I come to renew.
I have seen other insurance documents which do not cover anything on a motor racing circuit, regardless of whether it’s a track day or not. The ‘Ring is undoubtedly a motor racing circuit at times, but it also a public road – although I’m not sure whether it’s owned by the state or by a private organisation (Nurburgring GmbH?), in which case maybe it’s not a proper public road. I expect on balance that you’d be OK on one of the public days, but insurance companies will wriggle out of anything if they can and I wouldn’t want to find out the hard way.
And you must have 3rd party cover. What if you have a crash which is your fault and injure somebody? I don’t fancy trying to explain to the German police why my insurance company has decided I’m not covered.
My view is that if your insurance small print doesn’t exclude “derestricted toll roads” or motor racing circuits then you’re OK. But when I looking into it I could not find any insurers who said they would cover the ‘Ring. I think a lot of Brits who go their either don’t realise they’re not insured or stick their heads in the sand over the issue.
A company called Competition Car Insurance would cover me, but wanted £1069 for 3 days with a 10% excess
And IIRC this only covered my car not 3rd party so wasn’t really much use. Daftlad, please can you let me know who are you insured with? If they do really provide comprehensive cover for the ‘Ring I will definitely be talking to them when I come to renew.
TSS said:
My insurance policy (Privilege) specifically does not cover “derestricted toll roads”. Which the ‘ring certainly seems to be. Some have argued that there are speed limits at the start finish. So what, the rest of it is derestricted.
I have seen other insurance documents which do not cover anything on a motor racing circuit, regardless of whether it’s a track day or not. The ‘Ring is undoubtedly a motor racing circuit at times, but it also a public road – although I’m not sure whether it’s owned by the state or by a private organisation (Nurburgring GmbH?), in which case maybe it’s not a proper public road. I expect on balance that you’d be OK on one of the public days, but insurance companies will wriggle out of anything if they can and I wouldn’t want to find out the hard way.
And you must have 3rd party cover. What if you have a crash which is your fault and injure somebody? I don’t fancy trying to explain to the German police why my insurance company has decided I’m not covered.
My view is that if your insurance small print doesn’t exclude “derestricted toll roads” or motor racing circuits then you’re OK. But when I looking into it I could not find any insurers who said they would cover the ‘Ring. I think a lot of Brits who go their either don’t realise they’re not insured or stick their heads in the sand over the issue.
A company called Competition Car Insurance would cover me, but wanted £1069 for 3 days with a 10% excess
Daftlad, please can you let me know who are you insured with? If they do really provide comprehensive cover for the ‘Ring I will definitely be talking to them when I come to renew.
We have quite a few policies. The one I looked at yesterday, that suggested the Ring would be no problem, was a bog standard Norwich Union policy.
Pits, just back from the 'Ring. Trip with 9 other cars, including 7 TVR's. Also met another 'Gris there, FJT's. Bear in mind I don't have a track background, and the car was driven (first time in a 'Gris) by an experienced instructor for 4 laps (also first time on the 'Ring)- his best time 9min 22s.
The GT3RS that turned up in the morning was drooled over - but not after the 'Gris had been driven!
Karussel made more than scraping sounds at the rate the 'Gris was taken through - quick check to make sure nothing major had been left behind, especially after digging it in there really hard and spitting out the other side like a cork out of a bottle!! I own it, and didn't give a 5h1t - far too much fun to be worried about that!
The new F1's were excellent.
The 'Gris generated a lot of attention - but then so did all the other six TVR's there, all brilliantly turned out.
A fantastic few days touring - including a speed run down the old Riems circuit straight on the way to the 'Ring.
But, as the saying goes, I'll be back.
It is an addictive place, isn't it??!!
Next year we'll be taking the Sagaris and the T400R.
>> Edited by rpa.janwell on Wednesday 17th May 06:13
The GT3RS that turned up in the morning was drooled over - but not after the 'Gris had been driven!
Karussel made more than scraping sounds at the rate the 'Gris was taken through - quick check to make sure nothing major had been left behind, especially after digging it in there really hard and spitting out the other side like a cork out of a bottle!! I own it, and didn't give a 5h1t - far too much fun to be worried about that!
The new F1's were excellent.
The 'Gris generated a lot of attention - but then so did all the other six TVR's there, all brilliantly turned out.
A fantastic few days touring - including a speed run down the old Riems circuit straight on the way to the 'Ring.
But, as the saying goes, I'll be back.
It is an addictive place, isn't it??!!
Next year we'll be taking the Sagaris and the T400R.
>> Edited by rpa.janwell on Wednesday 17th May 06:13
Wow, sounds like a great trip. I will definitely be back too. It would be great to meet up with some other Sagari next time. I was lucky to meet a very rapid mk1 Tuscan S owner and we did a convoy lap which was great fun. I wish I could have seen our cars roar past. The Tusc owner was definitely giving it full beans and came away seriously impressed with his car. As did I. TVRs were all developed with the track in mind because Wheeler was a racer through and through.
About the Saggy's time, I'm certain they will lap well under 9 minutes and set a respectable time round there, if you don't mind the occasional bit of grounding out. One thing is certain, circuit knowlege is everything at the 'ring. It's hard to get unless you're a local but there are huge chunks of time to be found if you know your way round. Speaking of which Sabine Schmidt (she of ring taxi and now top gear fame) will do laps in your car with you as a passenger for a modest fee. She's the one to give your 'Gris to if you want to see what laptime they can set. I was half tempted... maybe next year...
About the Saggy's time, I'm certain they will lap well under 9 minutes and set a respectable time round there, if you don't mind the occasional bit of grounding out. One thing is certain, circuit knowlege is everything at the 'ring. It's hard to get unless you're a local but there are huge chunks of time to be found if you know your way round. Speaking of which Sabine Schmidt (she of ring taxi and now top gear fame) will do laps in your car with you as a passenger for a modest fee. She's the one to give your 'Gris to if you want to see what laptime they can set. I was half tempted... maybe next year...
Yes, I'm trying to wade through backlog here in the office, and still seeing the karussel in front of me!!!
Everyone on this trip has already agreed to next year - I will be putting some serious time and energy into getting myself prepared. I expect it will be around middle to end of May 2007, I'll keep you posted. Would be good to see a number of 'Gris on the track at the same time, and to get some serious times on record.
The Sabine idea is a good one - learning the track is a good percentage of the battle.
Everyone on this trip has already agreed to next year - I will be putting some serious time and energy into getting myself prepared. I expect it will be around middle to end of May 2007, I'll keep you posted. Would be good to see a number of 'Gris on the track at the same time, and to get some serious times on record.
The Sabine idea is a good one - learning the track is a good percentage of the battle.
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