Cold Air in Sagaris
Discussion
Just noticed over the last couple of days that my cold air sometimes stops flowing through the vents when the car is hot. Happened twice, both when I'd driven about 100 miles.
Symptom is that from having steady flow - fan set to mid setting, temp control on blue, a/c off - suddenly no air coming through. If I switch the temp up to above pure cold setting then I get hot air coming out the top of the dash, and that is regulatable so it's not the fan motor cutting out. If I stop, say for petrol, and turn off then when I start up again the thing functions normally. It's almost as though the cold vent pipe is being shut down, but can't think why it happens spontaneously unless it detects that the external air being drawn in is too warm due to engine running temperature. Once it's happened I can't get it going, even with the a/c on, unless I stop for a while.
Has anyone else experienced this ?
Symptom is that from having steady flow - fan set to mid setting, temp control on blue, a/c off - suddenly no air coming through. If I switch the temp up to above pure cold setting then I get hot air coming out the top of the dash, and that is regulatable so it's not the fan motor cutting out. If I stop, say for petrol, and turn off then when I start up again the thing functions normally. It's almost as though the cold vent pipe is being shut down, but can't think why it happens spontaneously unless it detects that the external air being drawn in is too warm due to engine running temperature. Once it's happened I can't get it going, even with the a/c on, unless I stop for a while.
Has anyone else experienced this ?
Hi Graham, just went out for a nice long drive. With temp set on cold (no a/c) Menu 5 showed 0% Flap, 40% Fan. Left these constant and watched the air temps. As expected, started out with Ambient, Hot and Cold all reading 24 and then once I got up to running temperature (oil at 70+ and water at 90+) observed Cold Air stable at around 4 degrees below Hot Air - so 28 vs 32 and then got up to 31 vs 35.
Is this enough of a differential ? I never got to the point of the cold vent shutting down again, but will watch this on my next 100 mile trip. Both previous occasions have been when I've travelled about that far.
Cheers
Is this enough of a differential ? I never got to the point of the cold vent shutting down again, but will watch this on my next 100 mile trip. Both previous occasions have been when I've travelled about that far.
Cheers
Looks like I've got a solution;
Had same reduction of air flow through cold vent but still through hot and then none at all.
Un plugged the heater controller; it was cooking-hot!
Dangled it in the cold breeze for a bit then 'click' it reset plugged back in and OK.
Cause; Overheating
Problem; It get's too hot from cabin heat at bulkhead
Solution; but not yet done;
Going to put the controller in cold air flow in the lower dash behind the glove box;
Wil report later
Graham
Had same reduction of air flow through cold vent but still through hot and then none at all.
Un plugged the heater controller; it was cooking-hot!
Dangled it in the cold breeze for a bit then 'click' it reset plugged back in and OK.
Cause; Overheating
Problem; It get's too hot from cabin heat at bulkhead
Solution; but not yet done;
Going to put the controller in cold air flow in the lower dash behind the glove box;
Wil report later
Graham
Aircon/heater cold air reduced flow -Update
After a few weeks of fiddling I think I've sorted as follows:-
Aircon/heater fan is a bit hit and miss; but should be like an ice box and too cold on full chat.
I've done the following with the Sagaris, can't be sure it'll work for others though.
Lots of parts are from the Tamora so I guess it applies to T350 also.
Remove carpet on passenger footwell underside; I ran the aircon fan and found that there was a gap between the bulkhead and the air duct that goes to the dash, I sealed it up with some expanding neoprene sponge cord and sealant -see photo. This improved the air flow to the drivers vent loads.
I further improved this by taking out the glove box and sealing it better and lined the dash with aluminium foil tape betwen the hot upper dash section and the lower cold section to reduce/stop heat transfer.(I also insulated the gearbox/prop tunnel to stop heat transfer to the cabin whilst changing the reverse switch and made a additional gaiter for the gear stick out of a mat used for soldering.)
I think the fan speed is dependant on the sensors which were not in the right place on mine or insulated correctly so that gives the 'heater amplifier' in the passenger footwell wrong information, and i think the heater amplifier also overheats causing reduced cold airflow, but continued hot air flow from the top dash.
The hot air and cold air sensors were dangling close together from the loom on mine; you can find out which is which by un-plugging and checking on POD 5. settings.
There are screwed holes to fit the sensors into, so i fitted; the cold one was taped over which is on the pipe behind the passenger vent, the hot one was an open brass insert on the angled bit towards the drivers side.see photo above after fitting
The ambient is the one on the o/s of the rad that pokes through to the splitter/inner wing, and gets silly readings as the car slows in heat(and also wind chill) you can improve this by using a nylon nut (rather than steel) and a fibre insulating washer and moving it into the otherside of the splitter into the brake disc airflow.
When cold and the engine and aircon is not running all three sensors should be about the same temperature;
The heater amplifier;(fan air flow/ temperature controller
Its behind the passenger footwell cover.
I found mine was cooking-hot!
Dangled it in the cold breeze for a bit then 'click' it reset plugged back in and then worked OK.
I moved mine to behind passenger air vent in cold air flow behind the glove box,to keep it cool and working correctly. see no.2 photo above (not done any long journeys yet to prove it helps though)
To check the setup with car COLD: Set to cold and fan max, then open hot vent on dash if air coming through adjust the flap zero (POD 8 Factory FlaP ZERO -factory set 0)until the airflow stops;I adjusted mine to 12 and the hot vent then had no air flow.
Not done major mileage since modification but all works fine now.
Aircon system;
The aircon blue lamp operates the clutch connected to the red wire you can just see in the pic below, Its fuse no.28 20Amp; The red wire connects to the loom white wire (terminal M) on the small round plug behind the airbox that goes through to the dash. The connection by the aircon pump is only a bullet/crimp and can fail easily; mine had been cut under a tiewrap in the loom.
Should have supply on the white loom wire to the connector when A/C selected.
Thro POD 5. menu you can check
Fan is 0-100% dependant where knob is same with flap%.
CL= Clutch off - air con pump off, and should change as soon as you press to get blue light likewise
PR should be on' and is the system pressure charged up/heathly and is reliant on the signal from the trinary switch (three-way) on right hand side on Sagaris by VIN plate on photo.
Make sure the plug is pushed home as can give the reading PR=off.
If the plug is OK then the aircon has lost its charge and will interlock the A/C clutch from getting it,s signal,hence PR=off
Not sure how much weight of aircon refrigerant needed(approx 650g-750g)
Go to your dealer on this one??
The adjustable thermostat with a copper caplliary wire sitting in the footwell seems to control the aircon on/off; mine set to max (not off position)
The Sagaris heater air is taken from the intake under the n/s light and goes betwwen the inner & outer wing. A dividing panel seperates the hot air from the radiator(the early T350 and Tam don't have this but its easy to fit one)
The transfered heat on the gear knob & the hand brake maybe sorted by changing to carbon or similar. but the ceramic break fitted by DJC to his car seems the way to go.
Hope this helps someone
After a few weeks of fiddling I think I've sorted as follows:-
Aircon/heater fan is a bit hit and miss; but should be like an ice box and too cold on full chat.
I've done the following with the Sagaris, can't be sure it'll work for others though.
Lots of parts are from the Tamora so I guess it applies to T350 also.
Remove carpet on passenger footwell underside; I ran the aircon fan and found that there was a gap between the bulkhead and the air duct that goes to the dash, I sealed it up with some expanding neoprene sponge cord and sealant -see photo. This improved the air flow to the drivers vent loads.
I further improved this by taking out the glove box and sealing it better and lined the dash with aluminium foil tape betwen the hot upper dash section and the lower cold section to reduce/stop heat transfer.(I also insulated the gearbox/prop tunnel to stop heat transfer to the cabin whilst changing the reverse switch and made a additional gaiter for the gear stick out of a mat used for soldering.)
I think the fan speed is dependant on the sensors which were not in the right place on mine or insulated correctly so that gives the 'heater amplifier' in the passenger footwell wrong information, and i think the heater amplifier also overheats causing reduced cold airflow, but continued hot air flow from the top dash.
The hot air and cold air sensors were dangling close together from the loom on mine; you can find out which is which by un-plugging and checking on POD 5. settings.
There are screwed holes to fit the sensors into, so i fitted; the cold one was taped over which is on the pipe behind the passenger vent, the hot one was an open brass insert on the angled bit towards the drivers side.see photo above after fitting
The ambient is the one on the o/s of the rad that pokes through to the splitter/inner wing, and gets silly readings as the car slows in heat(and also wind chill) you can improve this by using a nylon nut (rather than steel) and a fibre insulating washer and moving it into the otherside of the splitter into the brake disc airflow.
When cold and the engine and aircon is not running all three sensors should be about the same temperature;
The heater amplifier;(fan air flow/ temperature controller
Its behind the passenger footwell cover.
I found mine was cooking-hot!
Dangled it in the cold breeze for a bit then 'click' it reset plugged back in and then worked OK.
I moved mine to behind passenger air vent in cold air flow behind the glove box,to keep it cool and working correctly. see no.2 photo above (not done any long journeys yet to prove it helps though)
To check the setup with car COLD: Set to cold and fan max, then open hot vent on dash if air coming through adjust the flap zero (POD 8 Factory FlaP ZERO -factory set 0)until the airflow stops;I adjusted mine to 12 and the hot vent then had no air flow.
Not done major mileage since modification but all works fine now.
Aircon system;
The aircon blue lamp operates the clutch connected to the red wire you can just see in the pic below, Its fuse no.28 20Amp; The red wire connects to the loom white wire (terminal M) on the small round plug behind the airbox that goes through to the dash. The connection by the aircon pump is only a bullet/crimp and can fail easily; mine had been cut under a tiewrap in the loom.
Should have supply on the white loom wire to the connector when A/C selected.
Thro POD 5. menu you can check
Fan is 0-100% dependant where knob is same with flap%.
CL= Clutch off - air con pump off, and should change as soon as you press to get blue light likewise
PR should be on' and is the system pressure charged up/heathly and is reliant on the signal from the trinary switch (three-way) on right hand side on Sagaris by VIN plate on photo.
Make sure the plug is pushed home as can give the reading PR=off.
If the plug is OK then the aircon has lost its charge and will interlock the A/C clutch from getting it,s signal,hence PR=off
Not sure how much weight of aircon refrigerant needed(approx 650g-750g)
Go to your dealer on this one??
The adjustable thermostat with a copper caplliary wire sitting in the footwell seems to control the aircon on/off; mine set to max (not off position)
The Sagaris heater air is taken from the intake under the n/s light and goes betwwen the inner & outer wing. A dividing panel seperates the hot air from the radiator(the early T350 and Tam don't have this but its easy to fit one)
The transfered heat on the gear knob & the hand brake maybe sorted by changing to carbon or similar. but the ceramic break fitted by DJC to his car seems the way to go.
Hope this helps someone
Edited by VARLEYHYD on Friday 20th July 12:15
VARLEYHYD said:
To check the setup with car cold: Set to cold and fan max, then open hot vent on dash if air coming through adjust the flap zero (POD 8 Factory FlaP ZERO -factory set 0)until the airflow stops;I adjusted mine to 12 and the hot vent then had no air flow.
Just tried mine and the best I can get is cool air through the hot vents (was warm prior to adjustment), I can't shut off the flow altogether.Physically closing the hot vent increases air flow through the cold vent, closing cold vent increases(cool) air flow through hot vents.
Is this normal ?
Setting temp control to fully hot gives hot air from hot vent and no air from cold vent!
Just noticed you said to check setup with car COLD, does that make a difference ? Will have to try in the morning if that's the case - weather too nice not to be out using the car
Checked this morning so that everything was cold and all sensors reading roughly same temp.
Couldn't find a flap setting which gave no air from the hot vents
After short trip to work the temperature readings are warm 47, ambient 26, cold 7 so I guess the sensors are in the right place.
After adjusting the flaps I get cool, not cold, air from the hot vents so it's much better than it was before as I always had warm air and kept the vents shut.
Still not sure it's right though.
Couldn't find a flap setting which gave no air from the hot vents
After short trip to work the temperature readings are warm 47, ambient 26, cold 7 so I guess the sensors are in the right place.
After adjusting the flaps I get cool, not cold, air from the hot vents so it's much better than it was before as I always had warm air and kept the vents shut.
Still not sure it's right though.
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