Upgrades - 4.3, 4.5 - real world driving difference?
Discussion
Hello All,
Obviously some excellent developments for Speed Six engines being discussed recently (on PH and in Sprint magazine); especialy from Dom at TVR Power and Jason at Str8six.
Personally, I'm currently selling a superb 3.6 T350 for a Sag, engine is fantastic having just flown through a 12K service, but I' m now thinking with Sag prices at the 38-40K+ mark, I could have a 4.3 T350 for 8K ish, rather than sell up and put approx 17K towards a 4.0 Sag....hhmmmm!!
Looking at the TVR Power figures as an example, getting your standard engine rebuilt:
3.6 / 4.0 (+3yr warranty) = £4500 + VAT
3.6 / 4.0 (+5yr warranty) = £5250 + VAT
Upgrading:
4.3 (+5yr warranty) = £6999 + VAT
4.5 (+5yr warranty) = £8999 + VAT
I would say that many owners would be weighing up the value / performance difference between a 5-yr warranty 3.6 / 4.0 rebuild at £5250 + VAT or upgrade to 5-yr warranty 4.3 at £6999 + VAT. So essentially a difference of £1649 + VAT to climb up to a 4.3.
I'm interested in some real-world feedback, especially from the T350 fraternity, as to the differences from a 3.6 to 4.3 driving on the road (not particularly track), especially as it looks like 70+ owners (across different S6 models) have now had the 4.3 conversion.
Questions such as: acceleration, difference that the increased torque makes and when it kicks in, general overtaking, (theoretical) 0-60 times, general driveability. Essentially, is the 4.3 a superb proposition for the extra money over the 3.6 for real world driving?
I'm sure the 4.5 is a monster, but that is a serious investment for most.
Any feedback most welcome. Cheers, Grant
Obviously some excellent developments for Speed Six engines being discussed recently (on PH and in Sprint magazine); especialy from Dom at TVR Power and Jason at Str8six.
Personally, I'm currently selling a superb 3.6 T350 for a Sag, engine is fantastic having just flown through a 12K service, but I' m now thinking with Sag prices at the 38-40K+ mark, I could have a 4.3 T350 for 8K ish, rather than sell up and put approx 17K towards a 4.0 Sag....hhmmmm!!
Looking at the TVR Power figures as an example, getting your standard engine rebuilt:
3.6 / 4.0 (+3yr warranty) = £4500 + VAT
3.6 / 4.0 (+5yr warranty) = £5250 + VAT
Upgrading:
4.3 (+5yr warranty) = £6999 + VAT
4.5 (+5yr warranty) = £8999 + VAT
I would say that many owners would be weighing up the value / performance difference between a 5-yr warranty 3.6 / 4.0 rebuild at £5250 + VAT or upgrade to 5-yr warranty 4.3 at £6999 + VAT. So essentially a difference of £1649 + VAT to climb up to a 4.3.
I'm interested in some real-world feedback, especially from the T350 fraternity, as to the differences from a 3.6 to 4.3 driving on the road (not particularly track), especially as it looks like 70+ owners (across different S6 models) have now had the 4.3 conversion.
Questions such as: acceleration, difference that the increased torque makes and when it kicks in, general overtaking, (theoretical) 0-60 times, general driveability. Essentially, is the 4.3 a superb proposition for the extra money over the 3.6 for real world driving?
I'm sure the 4.5 is a monster, but that is a serious investment for most.
Any feedback most welcome. Cheers, Grant
Edited by grantT350T on Wednesday 18th August 18:37
Having upgraded from a 3.6l to a 4.3l in my Tamora some twelve months ago I can honestly say the difference is staggering
now I never had a problem with the 3.6 acceleration it was a quick car but sometimes it needed revving to get the best out of it the 4.3 will pull in any gear at pretty much any speed everybody who has had a spirited passenger ride has commented on the amount of usable power availiable
I note that dom is offering test drives in his Sag
now I never had a problem with the 3.6 acceleration it was a quick car but sometimes it needed revving to get the best out of it the 4.3 will pull in any gear at pretty much any speed everybody who has had a spirited passenger ride has commented on the amount of usable power availiable
I note that dom is offering test drives in his Sag
For real-world figs that you can relate to for overtaking, suggest you time your T350 from 80-100 in 3rd - should be about 2.9 secs, which is quick.
But the 4.2 (or 4.3) does it in a rapid 2 secs, albeit also with a lower diff which helps slightly.
The capacity increase is only part of the story, more torque & power is gained by the right cams and meticulous build to keep frictional losses to a minimum.
But the 4.2 (or 4.3) does it in a rapid 2 secs, albeit also with a lower diff which helps slightly.
The capacity increase is only part of the story, more torque & power is gained by the right cams and meticulous build to keep frictional losses to a minimum.
Edited by tail slide on Wednesday 18th August 22:32
I've just had my 3.6 Tuscan rebuilt as a 4.3 and it's a very marked change. I have a 3.73:1 diff and the acceleration has gone from what seemed plenty quick enough to now completely bonkers. It even revs just as happily as before, probably down to everything being better balanced and the new lightweight flywheel.
The most obvious improvement is to the car's manners when pootling. I really missed the old Griff's relaxed nature when not wanting to press on - you could just bimble in 3rd or 4th all day, with instant torque when you put your foot down. The 3.6 was fast, but often only when you dropped a couple of gears, whereas the 4.3 has an instant hit of torque from any revs.
Lastly, it's now much more smooth and refined at idle, with much less valve noise and piston slap, plus it starts very cleanly whether hot or cold. All in all, if you're ready for an upgrade, I'd strongly recommend the capacity increase.
Pete
The most obvious improvement is to the car's manners when pootling. I really missed the old Griff's relaxed nature when not wanting to press on - you could just bimble in 3rd or 4th all day, with instant torque when you put your foot down. The 3.6 was fast, but often only when you dropped a couple of gears, whereas the 4.3 has an instant hit of torque from any revs.
Lastly, it's now much more smooth and refined at idle, with much less valve noise and piston slap, plus it starts very cleanly whether hot or cold. All in all, if you're ready for an upgrade, I'd strongly recommend the capacity increase.
Pete
this is a very intersting thread and something that i'll be looking to do in future.
in my opinion it's only really worth upgrading to the 4.3 or 4.5 but the difference between the 2 is and extra £2k+VAT.
would you really notice a difference between the 2 and if so is it worth an extra £2k outlay?
i think the 4.3 is a happy medium with the 4.5 being mainly for bragging rights and pub talk?
note that with an increased engine load, increased cooling capacity will also be required (i.e. alloy rad), this is not included within that price but plasma coated exhaust manifolds is, which will help reduce heat soak.
Sorry to hi-jack
in my opinion it's only really worth upgrading to the 4.3 or 4.5 but the difference between the 2 is and extra £2k+VAT.
would you really notice a difference between the 2 and if so is it worth an extra £2k outlay?
i think the 4.3 is a happy medium with the 4.5 being mainly for bragging rights and pub talk?
note that with an increased engine load, increased cooling capacity will also be required (i.e. alloy rad), this is not included within that price but plasma coated exhaust manifolds is, which will help reduce heat soak.
Sorry to hi-jack
Diablos-666 said:
note that with an increased engine load, increased cooling capacity will also be required (i.e. alloy rad)
Would be interested to know what information you're basing that statement on? Most people who have had an alloy rad upgrade note (at best) very modest decreases in running temperatures.
ETA: additionally, Dom strikes me as a pretty shrewd bloke and he's offering a 5-year warranty on these engines. If the cooling capacity of the original system was in question and could potentially cause premature engine failure then I'm sure an upgrade to it would be included - at the end of the day it's TVR Power's risk therefore the setup that you leave with should be capable of supporting the demands of the larger engine, one would expect...
Edited by darkmark07 on Thursday 19th August 11:54
Edited by darkmark07 on Thursday 19th August 11:57
Guys, thanks for the replies so far, some interesting feedback. I don't really want to wander off into the technical specifics of the upgrade packages / warranties - that's a seperate thread. Appreciate if we could stay on course!
Essentially, the crux of feedback I'm after is:
1. What is the 4.3 like to drive compared to a standard 3.6 (fast road conditions)?
2. For the humble road-only TVR driver, (assuming the 5yr warranty options), do those people who have the upgrade think on balance that the 4.3 is worth the extra £1,650(ish) + VAT, over the cost of a standard re-build (£5,250 + VAT) - are we actually going to significantly notice / be able to use the performance?
The 4.5 is an awesome package, but I think (IMHO) it will appeal to a limited market for financial reasons, being approx £4k + VAT over and above the expense of just a standard upgrade / rebuild (and the possibility of not realising a significant re-coup over, say, a 4.3, come time to sell).
Thanks for the continued debate! Grant
Essentially, the crux of feedback I'm after is:
1. What is the 4.3 like to drive compared to a standard 3.6 (fast road conditions)?
2. For the humble road-only TVR driver, (assuming the 5yr warranty options), do those people who have the upgrade think on balance that the 4.3 is worth the extra £1,650(ish) + VAT, over the cost of a standard re-build (£5,250 + VAT) - are we actually going to significantly notice / be able to use the performance?
The 4.5 is an awesome package, but I think (IMHO) it will appeal to a limited market for financial reasons, being approx £4k + VAT over and above the expense of just a standard upgrade / rebuild (and the possibility of not realising a significant re-coup over, say, a 4.3, come time to sell).
Thanks for the continued debate! Grant
The 4.3 has an increase in stroke of 16mm or .632 inches over the 3.6 engine
this will give a big increase in low end and mid range torque the standard
3.6 makes 230 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm and max torque of 303 ft lbs @5000 rpm the
4.3 with just a cam upgrade will give around 290 ft lbs torque @ 2000 rpm rising to a max of about 369 ft lbs @ 4.500 rpm. hope this gives you an idea of drivability.
this will give a big increase in low end and mid range torque the standard
3.6 makes 230 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm and max torque of 303 ft lbs @5000 rpm the
4.3 with just a cam upgrade will give around 290 ft lbs torque @ 2000 rpm rising to a max of about 369 ft lbs @ 4.500 rpm. hope this gives you an idea of drivability.
dpd3047 said:
The 4.3 has an increase in stroke of 16mm or .632 inches over the 3.6 engine
this will give a big increase in low end and mid range torque the standard
3.6 makes 230 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm and max torque of 303 ft lbs @5000 rpm the
4.3 with just a cam upgrade will give around 290 ft lbs torque @ 2000 rpm rising to a max of about 369 ft lbs @ 4.500 rpm. hope this gives you an idea of drivability.
what difference does the 4.0 have over the 3.6 then, in terms of the above.this will give a big increase in low end and mid range torque the standard
3.6 makes 230 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm and max torque of 303 ft lbs @5000 rpm the
4.3 with just a cam upgrade will give around 290 ft lbs torque @ 2000 rpm rising to a max of about 369 ft lbs @ 4.500 rpm. hope this gives you an idea of drivability.
grantT350T said:
2. For the humble road-only TVR driver, (assuming the 5yr warranty options), do those people who have the upgrade think on balance that the 4.3 is worth the extra £1,650(ish) + VAT, over the cost of a standard re-build (£5,250 + VAT) - are we actually going to significantly notice / be able to use the performance?
Absolutely worth it in my opinion. The extra power and torque has transformed the car after 5 years driving it as a 3.6. It has prevented me going out and spending a fortune "upgrading" it to something comparably fast from a German or Italian manufacturer!You should budget for some additional costs, however. I needed new injectors, as the standard 3.6 ones wouldn't flow enough for the new capacity. I also needed a new starter, as my old one was the smaller version, and not happy turning the 4.3 over.
On top of essential upgrades, I also took the opportunity to have my 5th gear synchros rebuilt (they were crunching at high revs), fitted a new clutch and lightweight flywheel (was on original clutch at 40k, that was never going to last much longer!), and finally had a 6k service done at the same time (everything bar the engine bits, obviously).
I was impressed that Dom identified pretty much all of that up front, and the cost I ended up paying was exactly what we'd discussed on the first visit - no nasty surprises, and excellent after sales service too.
Pete
Diablos-666 said:
dpd3047 said:
The 4.3 has an increase in stroke of 16mm or .632 inches over the 3.6 engine
this will give a big increase in low end and mid range torque the standard
3.6 makes 230 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm and max torque of 303 ft lbs @5000 rpm the
4.3 with just a cam upgrade will give around 290 ft lbs torque @ 2000 rpm rising to a max of about 369 ft lbs @ 4.500 rpm. hope this gives you an idea of drivability.
what difference does the 4.0 have over the 3.6 then, in terms of the above.this will give a big increase in low end and mid range torque the standard
3.6 makes 230 ft lbs @ 2000 rpm and max torque of 303 ft lbs @5000 rpm the
4.3 with just a cam upgrade will give around 290 ft lbs torque @ 2000 rpm rising to a max of about 369 ft lbs @ 4.500 rpm. hope this gives you an idea of drivability.
I had a Cerbera 4.0 and that felt as torquey as the Sagaris but didn't rev/pull anythink like the Sag does, if that's down to the extra BHP of the S engine or the extra weight of the Cerbera I don't know, maybe a bit of both.
grantT350T said:
Guys, thanks for the replies so far, some interesting feedback. I don't really want to wander off into the technical specifics of the upgrade packages / warranties - that's a seperate thread. Appreciate if we could stay on course!
Essentially, the crux of feedback I'm after is:
1. What is the 4.3 like to drive compared to a standard 3.6 (fast road conditions)?
2. For the humble road-only TVR driver, (assuming the 5yr warranty options), do those people who have the upgrade think on balance that the 4.3 is worth the extra £1,650(ish) + VAT, over the cost of a standard re-build (£5,250 + VAT) - are we actually going to significantly notice / be able to use the performance?
The 4.5 is an awesome package, but I think (IMHO) it will appeal to a limited market for financial reasons, being approx £4k + VAT over and above the expense of just a standard upgrade / rebuild (and the possibility of not realising a significant re-coup over, say, a 4.3, come time to sell).
Thanks for the continued debate! Grant
This has been answered before in the speed 6 forum.Essentially, the crux of feedback I'm after is:
1. What is the 4.3 like to drive compared to a standard 3.6 (fast road conditions)?
2. For the humble road-only TVR driver, (assuming the 5yr warranty options), do those people who have the upgrade think on balance that the 4.3 is worth the extra £1,650(ish) + VAT, over the cost of a standard re-build (£5,250 + VAT) - are we actually going to significantly notice / be able to use the performance?
The 4.5 is an awesome package, but I think (IMHO) it will appeal to a limited market for financial reasons, being approx £4k + VAT over and above the expense of just a standard upgrade / rebuild (and the possibility of not realising a significant re-coup over, say, a 4.3, come time to sell).
Thanks for the continued debate! Grant
I think it is definately worth the extra outlay, the car is a lot easier to drive day to day. The extra low down torque makes overtaking a doddle whatever gear you are in, it's more lke a v8 in it's characteristics now although you can still get further up the rev range and get the old speed 6 "punch". You will most definately notice a big difference from a standard 3.6.
If you read Dom's article in this months Sprint he says all of his customers are more than happy with the engine and i haven't seen anything to contradict this, it truly is excellent.
As for cooling it is no different, i took mine to St. Tropez last year in 35deg heat and was stuck in traffic jams for a couple of hours and it didn't miss a beat unlike the AC!
To sum up, definately worth it.
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