Mercedes mulling buying out AM?
Discussion
Not sure if I've missed a post about this, just saw it in auto car online from 17th march, if already posted then apologies.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/geneva-motor-sho...
Mercedes head guy says:
“This is a fantastic brand, and we are willing to support its further development,” Zetsche said cryptically. He added that Aston had offered the CEO’s job to three individuals and had been rebuffed by two but now had a third in prospect.
Bit about the next Vantage engine too. Worth a read if you have not already.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/geneva-motor-sho...
Mercedes head guy says:
“This is a fantastic brand, and we are willing to support its further development,” Zetsche said cryptically. He added that Aston had offered the CEO’s job to three individuals and had been rebuffed by two but now had a third in prospect.
Bit about the next Vantage engine too. Worth a read if you have not already.
montecristo said:
Why wouldn't you want this job?
Company has been reporting financial losses.
Borrowings of (well quite a few bob).
DB9 origins are 11 years old. Vantage origins are 9 years old.
UK sales so far this year, are (well you know).
The major shareholders might not be just 'petrolheads'.
Yes quite a challenge, but it has been the same for 100 years.
We all just love the products though.
montecristo said:
Why wouldn't you want this job? OK it's tough, but what is it being turned down in favour of ... SVP of Something at a big auto company?
It depends on the differing shareholders objectives, resource and appetite which will shape the new CEO's role. It does make you wonder if the reports are true that two individuals have turned the role down.Potentially that leaves the third choice for the role or the rumours were started to illicit a response from certain shareholders to appoint someone into the role who may not be ideal from their perspective.
Who knows the true story here, the only thing you can say with certainty it points to a disjointed approach and differing objectives from the shareholders. Let's hope they get a deal done before things deteriorate further.
Or a larger deal is in progress and the role of CEO is not high on the agenda.
BMW have Rolls Royce, and Volkswagen have Bentley.
If Daimler Benz were to buy Aston Martin, what would be their motivation and what benefit would they gain?
They already have an upmarket brand image, and the additional turnover would look like a rounding error on their accounts.
They already know that it cost Ford dearly.
For a while, Daimler thought Chrysler ownership was a great idea.
I cannot understand what the business case would be.
Is the reason obvious to anyone?
(PS. If the 18 icon is still showing, it was not intentional.)
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 21st March 23:44
I posted this on the Autocar site in response:
If you care anything for the Aston Martin marque, this should TERRIFY you. As Roadster said, M-B has horrendous form with stuff like this. If they buy Aston, it will almost certainly be the end of Aston Martin as Aston Martin -- a builder of truly special and UNIQUE automobiles. I'll be very clear. I've always loved Astons, and I bought a new V8 Vantage in 2009, which I still own. If M-B buys Aston, it's a virtual certainty that I will never buy a new Aston again, unless it's one of last pre-Benz Astons. If M-B buys Aston, the result will be "Astons" that are really Benzes under the skin. What's the point of that??? If I want a Mercedes, I'll buy a Mercedes. They'll share engines, they'll share platforms, and they WON'T be Aston Martins. There is so much more to an Aston Martin than the badge and the aesthetics. This has horrific written all over it. Ford gave Aston Martin money and let them develop the VH cars, which are fantastic and do NOT share platforms or engines with Fords. There is virtually no chance that M-B would do the same -- just look at history. We'll end up with GL-based Aston SUVs, SL or GT or whatever-based Vantages and DBs, etc. I was called a skeptic, but the "bespoke" engines that AMG are developing "with" Aston already sound less and less like bespoke engines and more like merely a version of the new AMG engine. Sad. Shameful. Tragic.
Hope I'm wrong, but it sounds frightening. Yes, something needs to be done, etc., but Benz-based AMs (I see little reason to think that wouldn't be the result of a takeover) surely isn't the answer to anyone who doesn't only care about dollars/cents/pounds.
If you care anything for the Aston Martin marque, this should TERRIFY you. As Roadster said, M-B has horrendous form with stuff like this. If they buy Aston, it will almost certainly be the end of Aston Martin as Aston Martin -- a builder of truly special and UNIQUE automobiles. I'll be very clear. I've always loved Astons, and I bought a new V8 Vantage in 2009, which I still own. If M-B buys Aston, it's a virtual certainty that I will never buy a new Aston again, unless it's one of last pre-Benz Astons. If M-B buys Aston, the result will be "Astons" that are really Benzes under the skin. What's the point of that??? If I want a Mercedes, I'll buy a Mercedes. They'll share engines, they'll share platforms, and they WON'T be Aston Martins. There is so much more to an Aston Martin than the badge and the aesthetics. This has horrific written all over it. Ford gave Aston Martin money and let them develop the VH cars, which are fantastic and do NOT share platforms or engines with Fords. There is virtually no chance that M-B would do the same -- just look at history. We'll end up with GL-based Aston SUVs, SL or GT or whatever-based Vantages and DBs, etc. I was called a skeptic, but the "bespoke" engines that AMG are developing "with" Aston already sound less and less like bespoke engines and more like merely a version of the new AMG engine. Sad. Shameful. Tragic.
Hope I'm wrong, but it sounds frightening. Yes, something needs to be done, etc., but Benz-based AMs (I see little reason to think that wouldn't be the result of a takeover) surely isn't the answer to anyone who doesn't only care about dollars/cents/pounds.
Jon39 said:
BMW have Rolls Royce, and Volkswagen have Bentley.
If Daimler Benz were to buy Aston Martin, what would be their motivation and what benefit would they gain?
They already have an upmarket brand image, and the additional turnover would look like a rounding error on their accounts.
They already know that it cost Ford dearly.
For a while, Daimler thought Chrysler ownership was a great idea.
I cannot understand what the business case would be.
Is the reason obvious to anyone?
(PS. If the 18 icon is still showing, it was not intentional.)
I believe both Bentley and Rolls Royce have enjoyed record sales through group ownership. Daimler could try and replicate that aspect and feel confident in doing so. How much drops to the bottom line may not be the main driver here. Denying their competitors must be in there as must the most human of frailties, ego. If Daimler Benz were to buy Aston Martin, what would be their motivation and what benefit would they gain?
They already have an upmarket brand image, and the additional turnover would look like a rounding error on their accounts.
They already know that it cost Ford dearly.
For a while, Daimler thought Chrysler ownership was a great idea.
I cannot understand what the business case would be.
Is the reason obvious to anyone?
(PS. If the 18 icon is still showing, it was not intentional.)
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 21st March 23:44
The analogy I would use here is that AML is the last big animal in the jungle and no more deals like this are out there so why wouldn't you want to pull the trigger?
Lastly in value terms the deal will be done for a song. Any future owner will be sitting back watching the value fall as it's one way from here until significant new investment
I very much doubt there is any in house know how in AM that merc would be interested in, and I agree a lot of character will get lost.
But then I think about the Bugatti and we can question what the financial point of that was.
And then I think of maybach (although not a great advert )
Merc have no need for cars at a price point below 150k.. But above that.. And that would be both interesting and out my league
But then I think about the Bugatti and we can question what the financial point of that was.
And then I think of maybach (although not a great advert )
Merc have no need for cars at a price point below 150k.. But above that.. And that would be both interesting and out my league
I understand the worry that the brand would be diluted under the ownership of say, MB. But similar takeovers have seen other brands flourish - it seems to me that retaining identity is a very important part of most investment deals. Why would MB turn Aston Martin into a Mercedes with a different body shell? That seems to be absorption rather than investment.
Land Rover, Rolls Royce, Bentley and Bugatti have all done OK, haven't they?
It's the way of the world now. Having a major investor that can bring tech and know how to the table under careful stewardship has to be the way forward. And I trust AM not to sell its soul. He says with fingers crossed.
Land Rover, Rolls Royce, Bentley and Bugatti have all done OK, haven't they?
It's the way of the world now. Having a major investor that can bring tech and know how to the table under careful stewardship has to be the way forward. And I trust AM not to sell its soul. He says with fingers crossed.
I don't see the big deal if MB take a controlling interest in Aston ......quality will improve .....engine power will increase ......model cycle times will go from 10 years + to seven years (probably) even if they just supply the engines! they are made in Germany now, what's the difference .
Like Bentley the cars will still be made in the UK with hand made interiors
Like Bentley the cars will still be made in the UK with hand made interiors
michael gould said:
I don't see the big deal if MB take a controlling interest in Aston ......quality will improve .....engine power will increase ......model cycle times will go from 10 years + to seven years (probably) even if they just supply the engines! they are made in Germany now, what's the difference .
Like Bentley the cars will still be made in the UK with hand made interiors
Out of interest Michael ,I think I read a recent post of yours where you said you had a problem with your MB ,care to share it?Like Bentley the cars will still be made in the UK with hand made interiors
Leak into the boot because the drain holes were blocked resulting in the vacuum unit which controls the central locking to fail ( it site on a piece of foam which holds the water and corrodes the unit) ......get the car back on Monday .
Just got back from your neck of the woods .......crap lunch at Le Chapelle and ok lunch at the Ivy yesterday......Piers Morgan on the next table, very tempting to say how much we love him on Top Gear
Anyway after 4 weeks it's coming back on Monday from London ( with an additional 450 miles on the clock)
Just got back from your neck of the woods .......crap lunch at Le Chapelle and ok lunch at the Ivy yesterday......Piers Morgan on the next table, very tempting to say how much we love him on Top Gear
Anyway after 4 weeks it's coming back on Monday from London ( with an additional 450 miles on the clock)
michael gould said:
I don't see the big deal if MB take a controlling interest in Aston ......quality will improve .....engine power will increase ......model cycle times will go from 10 years + to seven years (probably) even if they just supply the engines! they are made in Germany now, what's the difference .
Like Bentley the cars will still be made in the UK with hand made interiors
I agree with this. However I have begun to realise I have no interest in Aston Martin as the awful cynical, cost-cutting 'brand' the company has become - I simply like my car and want no other. Whatever happen to them in the future - meh.Like Bentley the cars will still be made in the UK with hand made interiors
Speedraser said:
I posted this on the Autocar site in response:
If you care anything for the Aston Martin marque, this should TERRIFY you. As Roadster said, M-B has horrendous form with stuff like this. If they buy Aston, it will almost certainly be the end of Aston Martin as Aston Martin -- a builder of truly special and UNIQUE automobiles. I'll be very clear. I've always loved Astons, and I bought a new V8 Vantage in 2009, which I still own. If M-B buys Aston, it's a virtual certainty that I will never buy a new Aston again, unless it's one of last pre-Benz Astons. If M-B buys Aston, the result will be "Astons" that are really Benzes under the skin. What's the point of that??? If I want a Mercedes, I'll buy a Mercedes. They'll share engines, they'll share platforms, and they WON'T be Aston Martins. There is so much more to an Aston Martin than the badge and the aesthetics. This has horrific written all over it. Ford gave Aston Martin money and let them develop the VH cars, which are fantastic and do NOT share platforms or engines with Fords. There is virtually no chance that M-B would do the same -- just look at history. We'll end up with GL-based Aston SUVs, SL or GT or whatever-based Vantages and DBs, etc. I was called a skeptic, but the "bespoke" engines that AMG are developing "with" Aston already sound less and less like bespoke engines and more like merely a version of the new AMG engine. Sad. Shameful. Tragic.
Hope I'm wrong, but it sounds frightening. Yes, something needs to be done, etc., but Benz-based AMs (I see little reason to think that wouldn't be the result of a takeover) surely isn't the answer to anyone who doesn't only care about dollars/cents/pounds.
If you care anything for the Aston Martin marque, this should TERRIFY you. As Roadster said, M-B has horrendous form with stuff like this. If they buy Aston, it will almost certainly be the end of Aston Martin as Aston Martin -- a builder of truly special and UNIQUE automobiles. I'll be very clear. I've always loved Astons, and I bought a new V8 Vantage in 2009, which I still own. If M-B buys Aston, it's a virtual certainty that I will never buy a new Aston again, unless it's one of last pre-Benz Astons. If M-B buys Aston, the result will be "Astons" that are really Benzes under the skin. What's the point of that??? If I want a Mercedes, I'll buy a Mercedes. They'll share engines, they'll share platforms, and they WON'T be Aston Martins. There is so much more to an Aston Martin than the badge and the aesthetics. This has horrific written all over it. Ford gave Aston Martin money and let them develop the VH cars, which are fantastic and do NOT share platforms or engines with Fords. There is virtually no chance that M-B would do the same -- just look at history. We'll end up with GL-based Aston SUVs, SL or GT or whatever-based Vantages and DBs, etc. I was called a skeptic, but the "bespoke" engines that AMG are developing "with" Aston already sound less and less like bespoke engines and more like merely a version of the new AMG engine. Sad. Shameful. Tragic.
Hope I'm wrong, but it sounds frightening. Yes, something needs to be done, etc., but Benz-based AMs (I see little reason to think that wouldn't be the result of a takeover) surely isn't the answer to anyone who doesn't only care about dollars/cents/pounds.
I think your look into the future is a likely possibility. This senario was strengthened for me, when I read the following;
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1403-as...
They put forward the reason that after MB engines, gearboxes and electrics are in AML cars, a future purchaser of AML would obtain all the MB stuff. Daimler might decide to takeover AML simply to avoid that happening, rather than the more usual business reason of hoped for profit enhancement.
Lawyers on here may suggest that the AMG / AML technical contract, might include a change of majority ownership clause, to avoid that possibility.
Even if we do eventually see AML badged Mercedes, which mark the end of Aston Martin as we all like it to be, what a fantastic, remarkable and possibly unique, business story it has been. The firm became a prestige sports car company, hardly ever made a profit, but managed to struggle on for 100 years.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 22 March 14:04
Just read Georg Kacher's article in Automobile, and it's terrifying -- it supports my worst fears. How sad it would be for Aston to have made it 100+ years with all its struggles, but making wonderful and unique cars, only to be bought up and turned into versions of Benzes 
To those who say that Bentley and Rolls-Royce have done well since they were taken over, yes they have IF you look at them from a volume and money perspective alone. Not so much, however, from some other viewpoints. It's great that they now have identities different from each other. However, rather than being different versions of each other, now many/most of them are versions of VW/Audis or BMWs. Very sad IMO, and uninteresting.
The Continental series has been a great commercial success -- but most Bentleys are now VWs underneath (Phaeton platform) with VW (W12) or Audi (V8) drivelines. I have ZERO interest in that. The new R-R Ghost is a modified 7-series, with a BMW engine. I have ZERO interest in that. Guess how much interest I would have in an "Aston" that is a Mercedes underneath? Yup. ZERO.
Would a Ferrari built on a Fiat chassis with a Fiat engine -- or a Benz chassis with a Benz engine -- be a Ferrari? No. Aston needs -- and deserves -- the same level of respect.
To those who say that Bentley and Rolls-Royce have done well since they were taken over, yes they have IF you look at them from a volume and money perspective alone. Not so much, however, from some other viewpoints. It's great that they now have identities different from each other. However, rather than being different versions of each other, now many/most of them are versions of VW/Audis or BMWs. Very sad IMO, and uninteresting.
The Continental series has been a great commercial success -- but most Bentleys are now VWs underneath (Phaeton platform) with VW (W12) or Audi (V8) drivelines. I have ZERO interest in that. The new R-R Ghost is a modified 7-series, with a BMW engine. I have ZERO interest in that. Guess how much interest I would have in an "Aston" that is a Mercedes underneath? Yup. ZERO.
Would a Ferrari built on a Fiat chassis with a Fiat engine -- or a Benz chassis with a Benz engine -- be a Ferrari? No. Aston needs -- and deserves -- the same level of respect.
I am optimistic, hoping they will be inspired by what vw did with bentley: innovate (conti gt) and keep the old stuff running whilst improving it (arnage).
Bentley's offering is better after vw took over.
I am sure Mercedes can only be inspired by that.
When it comes to Rolls, the ghost is rubbish but the phantom is awesome. Both under bmw.
Bentley's offering is better after vw took over.
I am sure Mercedes can only be inspired by that.
When it comes to Rolls, the ghost is rubbish but the phantom is awesome. Both under bmw.
I agree completely with you Speedraser.
Putting on my realism hat though, what alternative do the directors of AML now have? I cannot see how the company can continue, in the way that we would hope for.
Others on here have more details of the outstanding bond (quite a cosy word for debt eh). I recall mention on here, that it is several hundred million, with a repayment date not too far in the future. A touch tricky, but especially when losses are being reported.
I gather the cost of developing new models is now mind boggling, compared to the DB4 days.
Perhaps the best we can hope for, is that the AML car designers are allowed their independence from whoever the paymasters may be in the future, as per the Ford days.
An SL in drag would be pretty bad. However, there have been comments here, about some Rolls Royce and Bentley models being mostly VW or BMW, although sales have never been better. Perhaps that contradicts what we have been saying.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 22 March 17:28
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