Got a £65 fine today...
Discussion
stimshady said:
...for stopping in a hatched box for 1 second in Hammersmith (partly due to the flyover being shut)... Doesn't that just piss you off!
(thought about contesting it, but they now email you video footage of your 'crime'!)
There are cameras all over those type of junctions, its a big earner for those councils/sub councils that use them, especially in London.(thought about contesting it, but they now email you video footage of your 'crime'!)
They know they are onto a system that is purely a money maker for them. Those junctions are normally a busy one with nowhere to go, it was clear when you entered the junction, but as you reach the other side, someone else has entered and moved in front of you and you have to stop even for a moment. Then they have got you. If you hadn't moved into the junction when it was technically clear you just wouldn't move and you would be there all day. Its designed to keep the junction clear so traffic moves freely, but in some cases its doesn't work very well in busy periods.
I think there's another junction in London somewhere which is quite large and the local council make thousands and thousands of pounds a week from it, license to print money for them!!
I once went through a 30 metre bus lane by mistake in South London because it was at a junction with a bus stopped on the junction covering the road markings. The signs were poor too, but I got sent a photo and a fine. It was that small, I had to look it up on Google Earth and go down to street level, just to see where the infringement was.
I stuck it into Google and found out that council made £75,000!!! on that camera alone in the previous year.
I am afraid we have all been hit one time or another in London, your an easy hit for them, that's why I hate driving in London and avoid it like the plague, doesn't help if you live or work there though.
bomberh said:
There are cameras all over those type of junctions, its a big earner for those councils/sub councils that use them, especially in London.
They know they are onto a system that is purely a money maker for them. Those junctions are normally a busy one with nowhere to go, it was clear when you entered the junction, but as you reach the other side, someone else has entered and moved in front of you and you have to stop even for a moment. Then they have got you. If you hadn't moved into the junction when it was technically clear you just wouldn't move and you would be there all day. Its designed to keep the junction clear so traffic moves freely, but in some cases its doesn't work very well in busy periods.
I think there's another junction in London somewhere which is quite large and the local council make thousands and thousands of pounds a week from it, license to print money for them!!
I once went through a 30 metre bus lane by mistake in South London because it was at a junction with a bus stopped on the junction covering the road markings. The signs were poor too, but I got sent a photo and a fine. It was that small, I had to look it up on Google Earth and go down to street level, just to see where the infringement was.
I stuck it into Google and found out that council made £75,000!!! on that camera alone in the previous year.
I am afraid we have all been hit one time or another in London, your an easy hit for them, that's why I hate driving in London and avoid it like the plague, doesn't help if you live or work there though.
bomberh, you're absolutely spot on, a total license to print money - or quite literally, daylight robbery!They know they are onto a system that is purely a money maker for them. Those junctions are normally a busy one with nowhere to go, it was clear when you entered the junction, but as you reach the other side, someone else has entered and moved in front of you and you have to stop even for a moment. Then they have got you. If you hadn't moved into the junction when it was technically clear you just wouldn't move and you would be there all day. Its designed to keep the junction clear so traffic moves freely, but in some cases its doesn't work very well in busy periods.
I think there's another junction in London somewhere which is quite large and the local council make thousands and thousands of pounds a week from it, license to print money for them!!
I once went through a 30 metre bus lane by mistake in South London because it was at a junction with a bus stopped on the junction covering the road markings. The signs were poor too, but I got sent a photo and a fine. It was that small, I had to look it up on Google Earth and go down to street level, just to see where the infringement was.
I stuck it into Google and found out that council made £75,000!!! on that camera alone in the previous year.
I am afraid we have all been hit one time or another in London, your an easy hit for them, that's why I hate driving in London and avoid it like the plague, doesn't help if you live or work there though.
erics said:
can you not argue against it in one way or another? Boils my blood this type of thing.
No,not in practice.You can have your day in court,but you are guilty of the offence,only with extremely extenuating circumstances or a very good brief have you any chance of getting off.
If you lose ,which you will,you might have court and police expenses to pay on top.
I did ask for advice at the local police station,albeit they were sympathetic.
I stupidly thought that if I had a previous 100% clean record for my offence I might be able to appeal on a genuine case of just an oversight,no way.
Last year,on a Bank Holiday, I parked two of my cars outside my house to give them a wash.
Nipped inside to fill the buckets and on my return found both cars ticketed at £100 each.
This was on a Bank Holiday in a very quiet location.
I had wrongly assumed restrictions would not apply on a Bank Holiday.
I must add that these three are the only tickets I have received in many years of motoring but it does irritate me when I see so many examples of dangerous driving where no action is taken because,unlike years ago,there are so few traffic police on the roads.
Edited by avinalarf on Wednesday 2nd July 14:16
Well, I actually phoned Hammersmith this morning and spoke to the guy there, because someone I know said there is a 'few second rule' that if you're not 100% static you can get away with it.
Anyway, I was practically crawling (perfectly legal) throughout 99% of the box, but I did stop for literally 2 seconds before crawling again - total amount of time in box was maximum of 15 - 20 seconds. The guy at Hammersmith said it's got a relatively good grounds for appeal seeing as I was crawling for the most part, so I have dropped them an email and we'll see what comes of it.
Just annoying more than anything - it's the equivalent of nearly a full tank of fuel down the drain!
(Interestingly, you are allowed in a box junction if you intend to go right and have your indicator on, even if cars are coming the other way and you have to wait in it).
Anyway, I was practically crawling (perfectly legal) throughout 99% of the box, but I did stop for literally 2 seconds before crawling again - total amount of time in box was maximum of 15 - 20 seconds. The guy at Hammersmith said it's got a relatively good grounds for appeal seeing as I was crawling for the most part, so I have dropped them an email and we'll see what comes of it.
Just annoying more than anything - it's the equivalent of nearly a full tank of fuel down the drain!
(Interestingly, you are allowed in a box junction if you intend to go right and have your indicator on, even if cars are coming the other way and you have to wait in it).
stimshady said:
Well, I actually phoned Hammersmith this morning and spoke to the guy there, because someone I know said there is a 'few second rule' that if you're not 100% static you can get away with it.
Anyway, I was practically crawling (perfectly legal) throughout 99% of the box, but I did stop for literally 2 seconds before crawling again - total amount of time in box was maximum of 15 - 20 seconds. The guy at Hammersmith said it's got a relatively good grounds for appeal seeing as I was crawling for the most part, so I have dropped them an email and we'll see what comes of it.
Just annoying more than anything - it's the equivalent of nearly a full tank of fuel down the drain!
(Interestingly, you are allowed in a box junction if you intend to go right and have your indicator on, even if cars are coming the other way and you have to wait in it).
I presume you will have to ask for a court hearing,so that means a day off work and possible award of costs against you.Anyway, I was practically crawling (perfectly legal) throughout 99% of the box, but I did stop for literally 2 seconds before crawling again - total amount of time in box was maximum of 15 - 20 seconds. The guy at Hammersmith said it's got a relatively good grounds for appeal seeing as I was crawling for the most part, so I have dropped them an email and we'll see what comes of it.
Just annoying more than anything - it's the equivalent of nearly a full tank of fuel down the drain!
(Interestingly, you are allowed in a box junction if you intend to go right and have your indicator on, even if cars are coming the other way and you have to wait in it).
Many would consider this a bad bet,they have us by the goolies and we suck it up.
stimshady said:
Interestingly, you are allowed in a box junction if you intend to go right and have your indicator on, even if cars are coming the other way and you have to wait in it
Its not really interesting. Its the rules and has been for as long as I can remember. Its interesting if you don't know them though 
A box junction is to prevent the breakdown of flow in one directions when another direction grinds to a halt - and only 1 car can enter a box junction and wait to turn right. I assume you know this and that its not just because they got carried away with paint.
As for getting off, maybe your car stalled in the slow moving traffic, but technically you shouldn't even enter unless you can exit so you shouldn't need to crawl in a box junction anyway - 3-4s to cross it.
These are the rules of the land we live in. Maybe not the greatest crime but then its not the greatest fine. If they make a lot of money its probably because a, people are ignorant to the rules and b, people like causing an obstruction to other road users. There's probably a "c" that says road junctions are badly designed but that's life.
Edited by Jon1967x on Wednesday 2nd July 16:43
Jon1967x said:
Its not really interesting. Its the rules and has been for as long as I can remember. Its interesting if you don't know them though
A box junction is to prevent the breakdown of flow in one directions when another direction grinds to a halt - and only 1 car can enter a box junction and wait to turn right. I assume you know this and that its not just because they got carried away with paint.
As for getting off, maybe your car stalled in the slow moving traffic, but technically you shouldn't even enter unless you can exit so you shouldn't need to crawl in a box junction anyway - 3-4s to cross it.
These are the rules of the land we live in. Maybe not the greatest crime but then its not the greatest fine. If they make a lot of money its probably because a, people are ignorant to the rules and b, people like causing an obstruction to other road users. There's probably a "c" that says road junctions are badly designed but that's life.
A tad harsh Jon,albeit not doubting the logic of your argument.A box junction is to prevent the breakdown of flow in one directions when another direction grinds to a halt - and only 1 car can enter a box junction and wait to turn right. I assume you know this and that its not just because they got carried away with paint.
As for getting off, maybe your car stalled in the slow moving traffic, but technically you shouldn't even enter unless you can exit so you shouldn't need to crawl in a box junction anyway - 3-4s to cross it.
These are the rules of the land we live in. Maybe not the greatest crime but then its not the greatest fine. If they make a lot of money its probably because a, people are ignorant to the rules and b, people like causing an obstruction to other road users. There's probably a "c" that says road junctions are badly designed but that's life.
Edited by Jon1967x on Wednesday 2nd July 16:43
Thing is there is a world of difference between dealing with a policeman who sees the "offence"and makes a reasonable judgement on whether to give a ticket or a slap on the wrist.
Nowadays we deal with a camera and an appeal process that is time consuming and difficult to win unless you have an expensive brief who knows what to say and how to say it.
Edited by avinalarf on Wednesday 2nd July 17:20
avinalarf said:
Jon1967x said:
Its not really interesting. Its the rules and has been for as long as I can remember. Its interesting if you don't know them though
A box junction is to prevent the breakdown of flow in one directions when another direction grinds to a halt - and only 1 car can enter a box junction and wait to turn right. I assume you know this and that its not just because they got carried away with paint.
As for getting off, maybe your car stalled in the slow moving traffic, but technically you shouldn't even enter unless you can exit so you shouldn't need to crawl in a box junction anyway - 3-4s to cross it.
These are the rules of the land we live in. Maybe not the greatest crime but then its not the greatest fine. If they make a lot of money its probably because a, people are ignorant to the rules and b, people like causing an obstruction to other road users. There's probably a "c" that says road junctions are badly designed but that's life.
A tad harsh Jon,albeit not doubting the logic of your argument.A box junction is to prevent the breakdown of flow in one directions when another direction grinds to a halt - and only 1 car can enter a box junction and wait to turn right. I assume you know this and that its not just because they got carried away with paint.
As for getting off, maybe your car stalled in the slow moving traffic, but technically you shouldn't even enter unless you can exit so you shouldn't need to crawl in a box junction anyway - 3-4s to cross it.
These are the rules of the land we live in. Maybe not the greatest crime but then its not the greatest fine. If they make a lot of money its probably because a, people are ignorant to the rules and b, people like causing an obstruction to other road users. There's probably a "c" that says road junctions are badly designed but that's life.
Edited by Jon1967x on Wednesday 2nd July 16:43
Thing is there is a world of difference between dealing with a policeman who sees the "offence"and makes a reasonable judgement on whether to give a ticket or a slap on the wrist.
Nowadays we deal with a camera and an appeal process that is time consuming and difficult to win unless you have an expensive brief that knows what to say and how to say it.
However.. Box junction cameras tend to take a picture when the lights change and get all those in the junction who can't get out. The technology isn't really there to play hawkeye and spot when cars stop for a second so I doubt its quite as simple as a momentary pause. Another example that gets me is when cars pull across a road joining on the left and sit there in a queue, a car comes towards them and can't turn down it because they're in the way. Leaving a gap is soooo easy.. as is waiting for one.
As for your situation with car washing - I agree - a bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss and in many ways it does happen all the time - we just don't notice it - I've seen front number plates on cars very similar to mine that aren't quite full size
I could play ignorant if I got stopped, I probably would, but not knowing the rules isn't really an excuseThe rule is "You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. ". Everyone does it - nobody should - doesn't make it a money raising scheme - it just a blunt form of education.
Steven - No, the appeal is literally written, if it gets accepted, so bit it. If not, then you can go to courts etc, but I won't bother.
Jon - completely agree, my ignorance of box junction law is probably what got me into trouble in the first place, not having box junctions in the countryside (where I learned to drive years ago) is a poor excuse, but one all the same. So yes, I should have been more aware.
However, with regards to the 'Hawkeye' - they actually have HUMAN on a camera zooming in and out to catch people! Seriously! On a Sunday afternoon!
Check out my criminal act here: https://viewmypcn.co.uk/view.aspx type in this number: HZ43558944 and my reg: ST11MOX
If you did actually wait until the box empties completely, likelihood is, you'd never enter!
Jon - completely agree, my ignorance of box junction law is probably what got me into trouble in the first place, not having box junctions in the countryside (where I learned to drive years ago) is a poor excuse, but one all the same. So yes, I should have been more aware.
However, with regards to the 'Hawkeye' - they actually have HUMAN on a camera zooming in and out to catch people! Seriously! On a Sunday afternoon!
Check out my criminal act here: https://viewmypcn.co.uk/view.aspx type in this number: HZ43558944 and my reg: ST11MOX
If you did actually wait until the box empties completely, likelihood is, you'd never enter!
avinalarf said:
No,not in practice.
You can have your day in court,but you are guilty of the offence,only with extremely extenuating circumstances or a very good brief have you any chance of getting off.
If you lose ,which you will,you might have court and police expenses to pay on top.
I did ask for advice at the local police station,albeit they were sympathetic.
I stupidly thought that if I had a previous 100% clean record for my offence I might be able to appeal on a genuine case of just an oversight,no way.
Last year,on a Bank Holiday, I parked two of my cars outside my house to give them a wash.
Nipped inside to fill the buckets and on my return found both cars ticketed at £100 each.
This was on a Bank Holiday in a very quiet location.
I had wrongly assumed restrictions would not apply on a Bank Holiday.
I must add that these three are the only tickets I have received in many years of motoring but it does irritate me when I see so many examples of dangerous driving where no action is taken because,unlike years ago,there are so few traffic police on the roads.
Steven you are seriously dangerous criminal and I'm shocked that you drive such old cars!!You can have your day in court,but you are guilty of the offence,only with extremely extenuating circumstances or a very good brief have you any chance of getting off.
If you lose ,which you will,you might have court and police expenses to pay on top.
I did ask for advice at the local police station,albeit they were sympathetic.
I stupidly thought that if I had a previous 100% clean record for my offence I might be able to appeal on a genuine case of just an oversight,no way.
Last year,on a Bank Holiday, I parked two of my cars outside my house to give them a wash.
Nipped inside to fill the buckets and on my return found both cars ticketed at £100 each.
This was on a Bank Holiday in a very quiet location.
I had wrongly assumed restrictions would not apply on a Bank Holiday.
I must add that these three are the only tickets I have received in many years of motoring but it does irritate me when I see so many examples of dangerous driving where no action is taken because,unlike years ago,there are so few traffic police on the roads.
Edited by avinalarf on Wednesday 2nd July 14:16
stimshady said:
(Interestingly, you are allowed in a box junction if you intend to go right and have your indicator on, even if cars are coming the other way and you have to wait in it).
And remember you can enter a box junction if you intend to turn right and there is someone already on the box waiting to turn right.Not a lot of people know that, from my observations.
stimshady said:
...for stopping in a hatched box for 1 second in Hammersmith (partly due to the flyover being shut)... Doesn't that just piss you off!
(thought about contesting it, but they now email you video footage of your 'crime'!)
Don't think the 1 second is the problem, you entered the box when the exit wasn't clear, that is what I think you got done as did all the others no doubt.(thought about contesting it, but they now email you video footage of your 'crime'!)
Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 2nd July 20:44
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