Confused by Carbon
Discussion
All the conversation in the "What have you done today?" thread regarding the carbon fiber bonnet has caused me to challenge my own cf prejudices.
I've avoided adding cf bits to things because they've seemed decorative and therefore a bit pretentious. After all, cf wasn't developed so that it could be a cap on a wing mirror, but to provide strength and weight advantages for engineered structures.
Then, of course, people decided that it looked cool, and everything from vinyl wrap to real cf façades started turning up all over the place. But oh no, not for me!
Then I realized how much I like the wood caps on my doors and on my "ski slope," and recognized that wood was first used in cars not to be a decoration, but to be a key part of the structure. Then, of course, people decided that it looked cool, and everything from vinyl wrap to real wood façades started turning up all over the place.
Damn. Being consistent is so inconvenient...
I've avoided adding cf bits to things because they've seemed decorative and therefore a bit pretentious. After all, cf wasn't developed so that it could be a cap on a wing mirror, but to provide strength and weight advantages for engineered structures.
Then, of course, people decided that it looked cool, and everything from vinyl wrap to real cf façades started turning up all over the place. But oh no, not for me!
Then I realized how much I like the wood caps on my doors and on my "ski slope," and recognized that wood was first used in cars not to be a decoration, but to be a key part of the structure. Then, of course, people decided that it looked cool, and everything from vinyl wrap to real wood façades started turning up all over the place.
Damn. Being consistent is so inconvenient...
Jockman said:
Zuman said:
After all, cf wasn't developed so that it could be a cap on a wing mirror, but to provide strength and weight advantages for engineered structures.
Indeed. If you look under the bonnet of a 10 year old Vanquish you will see cf being used as it was originally intended 
For me, this is CF at its best:
The fact that it can be manufactured (by manipulating the weave pattern) to be stiff in one direction and flexible in another results in a bike which is both faster (lightweight and lowest power loss from pedal to wheel) and more comfortable to ride than other materials - genius!
The fact that it looks good too is a bonus. I don't think there is a single fibre of carbon in my V8V but if people want to adorn their Astons in "non-functional" CF that is entirely a matter of taste and purely their decision. Not sure we've seen CF road wheels for cars yet but can you possibly imagine George's reaction when we do
The fact that it can be manufactured (by manipulating the weave pattern) to be stiff in one direction and flexible in another results in a bike which is both faster (lightweight and lowest power loss from pedal to wheel) and more comfortable to ride than other materials - genius!
The fact that it looks good too is a bonus. I don't think there is a single fibre of carbon in my V8V but if people want to adorn their Astons in "non-functional" CF that is entirely a matter of taste and purely their decision. Not sure we've seen CF road wheels for cars yet but can you possibly imagine George's reaction when we do
V8V Pete said:
For me, this is CF at its best:
The fact that it can be manufactured (by manipulating the weave pattern) to be stiff in one direction and flexible in another results in a bike which is both faster (lightweight and lowest power loss from pedal to wheel) and more comfortable to ride than other materials - genius!
The fact that it looks good too is a bonus. I don't think there is a single fibre of carbon in my V8V but if people want to adorn their Astons in "non-functional" CF that is entirely a matter of taste and purely their decision. Not sure we've seen CF road wheels for cars yet but can you possibly imagine George's reaction when we do
"For me this is CF at its best" - Is the fence post hiding the AM going round the outside of the bend 'cos all I can see is a bike that someone has sensibly abandoned. The fact that it can be manufactured (by manipulating the weave pattern) to be stiff in one direction and flexible in another results in a bike which is both faster (lightweight and lowest power loss from pedal to wheel) and more comfortable to ride than other materials - genius!
The fact that it looks good too is a bonus. I don't think there is a single fibre of carbon in my V8V but if people want to adorn their Astons in "non-functional" CF that is entirely a matter of taste and purely their decision. Not sure we've seen CF road wheels for cars yet but can you possibly imagine George's reaction when we do
My V12 Vantage has many of the CF parts fitted and the side strikes are looking lovely.
Just because I could I have just bought a Alfa 4c and the Carbon Tub is a wonderful looking thing too. Inside the car there is some sort of film or sealant on it but in the engine compartment it is visible in its original state of naked weave.
Just because I could I have just bought a Alfa 4c and the Carbon Tub is a wonderful looking thing too. Inside the car there is some sort of film or sealant on it but in the engine compartment it is visible in its original state of naked weave.
V8V Pete said:
Not sure we've seen CF road wheels for cars yet but can you possibly imagine George's reaction when we do
Koinigsegg do them. They look bloody awful in my opinion. My mate has some carbon BST wheels on his bike, I just don't see the point. They aren't any lighter than the magnesium alternatives, and they look worse. Plus they don't show damage in the same way that metal does, and I wouldn't want one of those failing on me.
I have no objection to use of carbon when it's functional. Carbon tubs are a great idea and really moved the chassis game on. But a carbon fibre dashboard or wing mirror covers? Just makes me cringe how chavvy that is.
People seem to dislike the new lighter carbon developed by Lamborghini / Boeing because it doesn't look pretty enough, even though it's lighter
Mind you, nothing can possibly be worse than those people who wrap/dip stuff to look like carbon.
George29 said:
Koinigsegg do them. They look bloody awful in my opinion.
I have no objection to use of carbon when it's functional. Carbon tubs are a great idea and really moved the chassis game on. But a carbon fibre dashboard or wing mirror covers? Just makes me cringe how chavvy that is.
Wing mirrors George, you can be sooo cruel.I have no objection to use of carbon when it's functional. Carbon tubs are a great idea and really moved the chassis game on. But a carbon fibre dashboard or wing mirror covers? Just makes me cringe how chavvy that is.
I love the way exposed carbon fiber looks when it's done right. Like the full catalog of dry carbon options on a V12VS... absolutely stunning. To me the weave provides a nice contrast to smooth, consistent surfaces like paint and leather. Weight savings are always nice, but sometimes it's negligible. A McLaren rep told me that the entire carbon fiber options packages for the upcoming 570S only sheds about 25 lbs from the car (if you've seen pics, every carbon fiber piece you see is an option - none of it comes standard).
telum01 said:
I love the way exposed carbon fiber looks when it's done right. Like the full catalog of dry carbon options on a V12VS... absolutely stunning. To me the weave provides a nice contrast to smooth, consistent surfaces like paint and leather. Weight savings are always nice, but sometimes it's negligible. A McLaren rep told me that the entire carbon fiber options packages for the upcoming 570S only sheds about 25 lbs from the car (if you've seen pics, every carbon fiber piece you see is an option - none of it comes standard).
That 25lbs is relative to the 12C/650 tub it is evolved from.That tub is already super light at 165 lbs so 25lbs less is a 15.2% reduction
I'd say that's worthwhile
That said whilst I was looking at 650's I can across an MSO car (like Aston's Q) that had over £100k of "cosmetic" CF on it that shed little of no weight over the composite panels they replace
ALL the manufacturers are guilty of this, using CF (real or every sort of fake) to imply weight saving or high end engineering. Their aim being to justify massive premiums and bolster profits
I've only specified one piece of cosmetic CF on the 650S, that is one reason I've managed to get a new one for less than the cost of all the currently available used ones!
mikey k said:
That 25lbs is relative to the 12C/650 tub it is evolved from.
The carbon I'm referring to is the carbon fiber trim and panels you see in press photos - not the carbon of the tub. The carbon tub is actually a little heavier on the 570S than the 12C/650S/675LT, as the lower sills required more material to maintain strength.All of the carbon fiber you see in this pic is MSO optional:
The standard spec is a grey-ish color trim, vanadium or something like that. If you spec the car with full carbon trim to replace the standard vanadium, the weight savings are only about 25 lbs.
Point being, you're right about cost to weight reduction. It's really not worthwhile on a street car!
Meanwhile, I've got $3k in carbon parts on their way for my V8V lol
Edited by telum01 on Friday 12th June 19:04
ian365 said:
V8V Pete said:
I don't think there is a single fibre of carbon in my V8V
The drive shaft is carbon fibre. 
Any other bits I've forgotten?
V8V Pete said:
Yes it is! Thank you for correcting me there. I did know that but had overlooked it. I would call that "functional" as it presumably reduces rotating mass so I wholeheartedly approve
Any other bits I've forgotten?
The optional sport seats have a carbon fiber shell and those drop considerable weight (20 kg, I think).Any other bits I've forgotten?
Carbon fiber front lips, rear diffusers, and rear bumper covers.
EDIT: Sorry, just saw that's for your car specifically, so I don't know if any of those apply.
telum01 said:
The carbon I'm referring to is the carbon fiber trim and panels you see in press photos - not the carbon of the tub. The carbon tub is actually a little heavier on the 570S than the 12C/650S/675LT, as the lower sills required more material to maintain strength.
The standard spec is a grey-ish color trim, vanadium or something like that. If you spec the car with full carbon trim to replace the standard vanadium, the weight savings are only about 25 lbs.
Point being, you're right about cost to weight reduction. It's really not worthwhile on a street car!
Meanwhile, I've got $3k in carbon parts on their way for my V8V lol
Got youThe standard spec is a grey-ish color trim, vanadium or something like that. If you spec the car with full carbon trim to replace the standard vanadium, the weight savings are only about 25 lbs.
Point being, you're right about cost to weight reduction. It's really not worthwhile on a street car!
Meanwhile, I've got $3k in carbon parts on their way for my V8V lol
totally agree
Hence my order for a 650S has not external cosmetic CF just "Palladium" coloured panels (though I suspect thats another market trick = trying to make metallic grey paint sound like an exotic, rare and expensive material
)V8V Pete said:
Yes it is! Thank you for correcting me there. I did know that but had overlooked it. I would call that "functional" as it presumably reduces rotating mass so I wholeheartedly approve.
CF might reduce rotating mass, but it is said to be responsible for the first gear, low speed graunching noise. The noise that makes us wonder, if we are just about to pay for a new gearbox.
I have changed over to external CF OEM parts on my V8 Roadster, firstly due to the very poor quality of factory fitted external metal parts.
The rear meshes and chrome side strakes were corroding badly and looked unsightly, so by replacing them in CF rear diffuser and strakes it eliminates this issue permanently
The only problem is when you start, it leads you onto changing over other external parts to CF to keep the look of the car consistent.
A lot has been discussed here about weight saving using CF, but this is absolutely irrelevant to me on my V8VR.
For instance on the V8VR I removed the front number plate plinth (for cosmetic reasons) and the over engineering on this by AM is ridiculous (perhaps because it is for bumper protection)
The passenger side cabin fuse box has a large aluminium cover plate held down by six M6 screws, again a bit of over engineering.
The cigarette lighter and crystal glass ashtray is again another additional weight for cosmetic reasons only.
But these are the materials AM have used and prefer to stick to them, which is what sets an Aston apart from many other cars.
They could of course use a lot more plastic to reduce weight, but then it would not be an Aston
The rear meshes and chrome side strakes were corroding badly and looked unsightly, so by replacing them in CF rear diffuser and strakes it eliminates this issue permanently
The only problem is when you start, it leads you onto changing over other external parts to CF to keep the look of the car consistent.
A lot has been discussed here about weight saving using CF, but this is absolutely irrelevant to me on my V8VR.
For instance on the V8VR I removed the front number plate plinth (for cosmetic reasons) and the over engineering on this by AM is ridiculous (perhaps because it is for bumper protection)
The passenger side cabin fuse box has a large aluminium cover plate held down by six M6 screws, again a bit of over engineering.
The cigarette lighter and crystal glass ashtray is again another additional weight for cosmetic reasons only.
But these are the materials AM have used and prefer to stick to them, which is what sets an Aston apart from many other cars.
They could of course use a lot more plastic to reduce weight, but then it would not be an Aston
mikey k said:
Got you
totally agree
Hence my order for a 650S has not external cosmetic CF just "Palladium" coloured panels (though I suspect thats another market trick = trying to make metallic grey paint sound like an exotic, rare and expensive material )
Palladium, that's what I was thinking. Thanks for the correction!totally agree
Hence my order for a 650S has not external cosmetic CF just "Palladium" coloured panels (though I suspect thats another market trick = trying to make metallic grey paint sound like an exotic, rare and expensive material
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