Engine differences V12 vs V12S
Discussion
What's about con rods, pistons, cams, tappets, etc.? There are many V12 engine failures listed. Read an internal AML document that stated V12 engine failures are five times higher than V8 engines!
Thinking to upgrade from V8S to V12S Vantage but obviously the V12 engine does not have the same reliability...
Thinking to upgrade from V8S to V12S Vantage but obviously the V12 engine does not have the same reliability...
v8maniac said:
What's about con rods, pistons, cams, tappets, etc.? There are many V12 engine failures listed. Read an internal AML document that stated V12 engine failures are five times higher than V8 engines!
Thinking to upgrade from V8S to V12S Vantage but obviously the V12 engine does not have the same reliability...
Early DB9 known to have issues, but I've never heard of V12V engine failure. Thinking to upgrade from V8S to V12S Vantage but obviously the V12 engine does not have the same reliability...
What was the date on the document you read?
outofstepuk said:
Early DB9 known to have issues, but I've never heard of V12V engine failure.
What was the date on the document you read?
I am aware of one V12V engine failure about 2 years ago. Apparently the owner tracked the car with insufficient oil in it resulting in total failure (not sure of details) requiring new engine. I don't think this really counts as the engine's or AML's fault though. Most high performance engines use some oil and if you are not prepared to check it even before tracking the car then you really have to accept the consequences.What was the date on the document you read?
outofstepuk said:
What was the date on the document you read?
I recently visited my local AM dealer to have a look on a used V12S. The document I am referring to has just been issued by AML to advice service managers how to deal with engine failures. I did not read the entire document but saw the diagram/stats about engine failures and it was quite obvious that 5.9l V12 had the highest graph and the 4.7l V8 the lowest. The dealer told me they had recently three V12 engines (Vantage, DB9 Carbon White) with valve train issues. Seems to me the V8 engine is a kind of rock solid but V12 does have some troubles.That's the reason I would like to know some more details. Thinking about that AML has may be changed some source of trouble and will carefully developing the engine to be more reliable. If yes, it would be very interesting to know what they did. I checked with Prodrive and they have a so called 2014 V12 engine calibration. They never tell you what they do but the person in charge told me, there are substantial changes to get a V12 engine ready to go. On the other hand he mentioned preparing a V8 engine would be a fraction of what a V12 will require.
Edited by v8maniac on Tuesday 14th July 09:08
tonyhall38 said:
if you look after it...and dont f
k it up with over the top modifications...v12 is bullet proof....you only ever hear bad things about the v12...because all the v8 owners are still learning to read and write....
Falt it woz coz DB9 oners is to old to sea de oil on de dip stikk it up with over the top modifications...v12 is bullet proof....you only ever hear bad things about the v12...because all the v8 owners are still learning to read and write....innit
tonyhall38 said:
if you look after it...and dont fk it up with over the top modifications...v12 is bullet proof....you only ever hear bad things about the v12...because all the v8 owners are still learning to read and write....
I am regular driving my Vantage on German's Nordschleife which is great fun but also giving the engine a hard time. It's a different story if you are weaving your way down the traffic or if you are using the Vantage as a track car it was intended for. Right now, no issues with my current V8 (2012MY). Would be great if a V12 would be in the same line of reliability. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to meet V12 owners at the track. For some circumstances they are all V8 fired... maybe to much worries to crash the car. k it up with over the top modifications...v12 is bullet proof....you only ever hear bad things about the v12...because all the v8 owners are still learning to read and write....However, engine TLC is always a good recommendation...
Engine failure is always a hot topic due to the high cost of replacement, but you will find far more to worry about with Porsche (996-997), BMW ( certain M3's), Ferrari, etc, than Aston Martin. Although failures do occur (and hence expert inspection and FSH is important) they are still rare, the V12 has also been around since around 1999, longer than the AM V8, which will also affect statistics.
The evolution of the V12 for the Vanquish (plus DB9 13MY + / Rapide S/ V12VS) was one of the most comprehensive to date and included (a rough summary list)
Key V12 changes for the 13MY: new cylinder block (same capacity/bore/stroke) - pistons - cylinder heads - valves & springs - crankshaft - hollow camshafts - revised intake manifold & CNC machined combustion chambers - enlarged throttle bodies - high efficiency wet sump - new oil/water pumps & thermostat - dual variable valve timing - knock sensors - higher compression ratio - new engine brace - new Bosch Engine management on V12VS first. (obviously a list doesn't put meat on the bones of the various benefits from these changes, but there isn't the space to cover these here).
But going back to your original post I wouldn't worry unduly about V12 engine failure on earlier cars providing they have a FSH (from a recognised AM specialist/official dealer) and you have the car properly inspected, although very high mileage and hard used regulary tracked cars do obviously require extra scrutiny and run a higher risk level! You can also purchase various levels of official warranty cover for increased peace of mind if required and if you are looking at something like a V12VS this is still under the 3 year manufacturer warranty anyway.
Now get out there and buy one the V12 engine is silky smooth and bellowing beast in equal measure 
The evolution of the V12 for the Vanquish (plus DB9 13MY + / Rapide S/ V12VS) was one of the most comprehensive to date and included (a rough summary list)
Key V12 changes for the 13MY: new cylinder block (same capacity/bore/stroke) - pistons - cylinder heads - valves & springs - crankshaft - hollow camshafts - revised intake manifold & CNC machined combustion chambers - enlarged throttle bodies - high efficiency wet sump - new oil/water pumps & thermostat - dual variable valve timing - knock sensors - higher compression ratio - new engine brace - new Bosch Engine management on V12VS first. (obviously a list doesn't put meat on the bones of the various benefits from these changes, but there isn't the space to cover these here).
But going back to your original post I wouldn't worry unduly about V12 engine failure on earlier cars providing they have a FSH (from a recognised AM specialist/official dealer) and you have the car properly inspected, although very high mileage and hard used regulary tracked cars do obviously require extra scrutiny and run a higher risk level! You can also purchase various levels of official warranty cover for increased peace of mind if required and if you are looking at something like a V12VS this is still under the 3 year manufacturer warranty anyway.
Now get out there and buy one
the V12 engine is silky smooth and bellowing beast in equal measure Grant3 said:
...now get out there and buy one the V12 engine is silky smooth and bellowing beast in equal measure
Many thanks for the explanation. I can imagine what kind of changes will have a certain kind of impact. Sounds like a solid upgrade. I will definitely consider to buy one the V12 engine is silky smooth and bellowing beast in equal measure The dealer recently mentioned there will be an updated V12S with manual 7-gearbox early 2016 together with some other upgrades as well. Something like a final edition before a new generation will take place. Maybe my favorite buy...
v8maniac said:
The dealer recently mentioned there will be an updated V12S with manual 7-gearbox early 2016 together with some other upgrades as well. Something like a final edition before a new generation will take place. Maybe my favorite buy...
This would be great news! Test drove a V12VS with SS III and I found it iterrible too drive in normal conditions, when you drive it on a track, it probably is good. But a good manual gearbox would give the car and engine so much more involvement and fun as well as better for normal day driving! The rumours regarding a manual V12VS have been going on for some time now. Someone on here had a friend who had one on order for delivery soon but I still have not heard anything about a manual.
I had assumed it would be a six speed box from the current range and wonder where they will source the seven speed box from. How many seven speed manuals are available and would the additional cost justify what would be a limited run car?
I struggle to understand the problems people claim to have with the SS3 box. I have a manual and a SS3 version and love driving them both but there is no doubt that the quicker car is the SS version.
I had assumed it would be a six speed box from the current range and wonder where they will source the seven speed box from. How many seven speed manuals are available and would the additional cost justify what would be a limited run car?
I struggle to understand the problems people claim to have with the SS3 box. I have a manual and a SS3 version and love driving them both but there is no doubt that the quicker car is the SS version.
IanV12VR said:
...wonder where they will source the seven speed box from.
My local dealer provided this information during a discussion whether AML will release a final edition of the Vantage model or not. He explicitly mentioned a V12S with a new 7-speed manual gearbox because there is obviously a continuous demand. If this become true I am pretty confident, it will be a ZF/Sachs manual gearbox and automatic PDK because both have 7-speed and rated rock solid. Furthermore AMG Mercedes (and Porsche as well) is using them. I know I am speculating but it would put a smile on my face... ZFs PDK is really great...AWV12 said:
This would be great news! Test drove a V12VS with SS III and I found it iterrible too drive in normal conditions, when you drive it on a track, it probably is good. But a good manual gearbox would give the car and engine so much more involvement and fun as well as better for normal day driving!
Your thoughts on the V12VS are interesting as I found the complete opposite when I test drove an S recently, although maybe we've got different definitions of normal day driving. Going from the manual in my V12V to the S, it felt so much easier and relaxing to drive around the city and suburbs. I love the manual when out on the open road but around town, an easy drive it is not. The steering is much better weighted at low-ish speeds in the S, the gearchanges were a million miles better than in my old 4.3 V8 SS and it just felt great to drive. I never had any intention of trading in the V12V but after I had driven the S I was tempted. If they'd had a Flugplatz blue roaster in stock, who knows what might have happened...
C997 said:
Your thoughts on the V12VS are interesting as I found the complete opposite when I test drove an S recently, although maybe we've got different definitions of normal day driving. Going from the manual in my V12V to the S, it felt so much easier and relaxing to drive around the city and suburbs.
I love the manual when out on the open road but around town, an easy drive it is not. The steering is much better weighted at low-ish speeds in the S, the gearchanges were a million miles better than in my old 4.3 V8 SS and it just felt great to drive. I never had any intention of trading in the V12V but after I had driven the S I was tempted. If they'd had a Flugplatz blue roaster in stock, who knows what might have happened...
What, one like this????? I love the manual when out on the open road but around town, an easy drive it is not. The steering is much better weighted at low-ish speeds in the S, the gearchanges were a million miles better than in my old 4.3 V8 SS and it just felt great to drive. I never had any intention of trading in the V12V but after I had driven the S I was tempted. If they'd had a Flugplatz blue roaster in stock, who knows what might have happened...
Ian,s one is not for sale though but this one is!
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
v8maniac said:
I am pretty confident, it will be a ZF/Sachs manual gearbox and automatic PDK because both have 7-speed and rated rock solid. Furthermore AMG Mercedes (and Porsche as well) is using them. I know I am speculating but it would put a smile on my face... ZFs PDK is really great...
That won't happen. If they are going to release a 7 speed manual it will be the existing SSIII box with a gearstick. AM don't have the financial clout to buy in A N Other box for a very limited run.Any completely new gearboxes will be Merc sourced.
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