Query re.accidental damage
Discussion
My car is a 2006 DB9V,19K miles.
It was in for an annual service with a MD from whom I purchased the car and have used for previous services.
Had an advisory that front flexi hoses showed corrosion so told them to replace.
Next day was told that during replacement.....
1) Part of the thread on one caliper had come away when the connecting bolt was removed.
2) The other bolt had sheared off in the caliper
I spoke to the mechanic on the phone and he assured me that he had acted correctly and I had just been unlucky
So I was told that I would need two new callipers at a cost of £450. Apparently this was at cost price.
Having no experience myself in car mechanics what is your advice,was I just unlucky or was the mechanic at fault ?
In the circumstances above would you have expected to have had to pay for two new calipers .
It was in for an annual service with a MD from whom I purchased the car and have used for previous services.
Had an advisory that front flexi hoses showed corrosion so told them to replace.
Next day was told that during replacement.....
1) Part of the thread on one caliper had come away when the connecting bolt was removed.
2) The other bolt had sheared off in the caliper
I spoke to the mechanic on the phone and he assured me that he had acted correctly and I had just been unlucky
So I was told that I would need two new callipers at a cost of £450. Apparently this was at cost price.
Having no experience myself in car mechanics what is your advice,was I just unlucky or was the mechanic at fault ?
In the circumstances above would you have expected to have had to pay for two new calipers .
if im doing a job , and something breaks in the course of doing something , which my customer had no control over and had not been told about beforehand...ie..dear baldy ..when we remove the calipers we might break the bolts and you will need new ones...do you wish us to continue?....then i would expect to pay for the replacement /repair....
anyway if its just siezed bolts?...just replace the bolts?
anyway if its just siezed bolts?...just replace the bolts?
tonyhall38 said:
if im doing a job , and something breaks in the course of doing something , which my customer had no control over and had not been told about beforehand...ie..dear baldy ..when we remove the calipers we might break the bolts and you will need new ones...do you wish us to continue?....then i would expect to pay for the replacement /repair....
anyway if its just siezed bolts?...just replace the bolts?
I had a long conversation with the head of the service dept. raising several queries,briefly as I have explained I was told that the mechanic had been careful and I had just been unlucky.anyway if its just siezed bolts?...just replace the bolts?
mrpseudonym said:
I'd buy one coincidence not two..
Exactly what I thought but coincidences do happen and conjecture doesn't really help.What I am asking you guys is for anybody with practice in the procedure to give me a view.
I obviously queried whether the mechanic had been heavy handed but was assured this was not the case.
The mechanic told me he had only had this happen once before.
So should I take it further or accept it was just bad luck.
If I take it forward...... on what grounds ?
In all honesty, I think you have to just go with it.
The car is about/nearly 10 years old. There will be corrosion in some places. In your car, that corrosion is on flex hose couplings and bolts etc. Those items are not corrosion proof and will be expected to have a finite lifespan. The effect of corrosion is the addition of oxidised material, that be either steel or aluminium. In addition, some hardening of the aluminium is the likely cause of the thread failing.
The engineer who did the work will likely have done this work many times before, and work like it. The removal of a corroded bolt is a dodgy one at the best of times and the results are not predictable. You cannot predict the failure of a fixing from corrosion, the moment it starts to go, the part is already fubar.
If in the course of carrying out a task that you required, those parts break through wear and tear (corrosion), then the parts are at fault, not the MD. Those parts are yours and no negligence would be inferred to the engineer for sure.
Its much like changing a head gasket. When removing the head for the gasket change, if the bolts break then they have to be extracted. Would you really not expect your to be billed for the hourly rate of extracting them?
To repair the thread would entail the MD taking legal responsibility for a part that the manufacturer would consider sub-standard. It is not unreasonable for them to insist on a new part, especially for the braking system.
The fact they are doing those callipers at cost shows goodwill. I think you have a good dealer there.
The car is about/nearly 10 years old. There will be corrosion in some places. In your car, that corrosion is on flex hose couplings and bolts etc. Those items are not corrosion proof and will be expected to have a finite lifespan. The effect of corrosion is the addition of oxidised material, that be either steel or aluminium. In addition, some hardening of the aluminium is the likely cause of the thread failing.
The engineer who did the work will likely have done this work many times before, and work like it. The removal of a corroded bolt is a dodgy one at the best of times and the results are not predictable. You cannot predict the failure of a fixing from corrosion, the moment it starts to go, the part is already fubar.
If in the course of carrying out a task that you required, those parts break through wear and tear (corrosion), then the parts are at fault, not the MD. Those parts are yours and no negligence would be inferred to the engineer for sure.
Its much like changing a head gasket. When removing the head for the gasket change, if the bolts break then they have to be extracted. Would you really not expect your to be billed for the hourly rate of extracting them?
To repair the thread would entail the MD taking legal responsibility for a part that the manufacturer would consider sub-standard. It is not unreasonable for them to insist on a new part, especially for the braking system.
The fact they are doing those callipers at cost shows goodwill. I think you have a good dealer there.
Avin,
I had something very similar on my previous Porsche. Whilst the mechanic was changing brake fluid, something broke which led to a calliper change.
I then had the question of replacing one or both and as it was an independent garage they looked at refurbished options for me as well.
In the end I paid for the additional items and they paid / reduced the labour.
As an aside £450 for two calipers is good value. I think I paid £395 for one.
Sean
I had something very similar on my previous Porsche. Whilst the mechanic was changing brake fluid, something broke which led to a calliper change.
I then had the question of replacing one or both and as it was an independent garage they looked at refurbished options for me as well.
In the end I paid for the additional items and they paid / reduced the labour.
As an aside £450 for two calipers is good value. I think I paid £395 for one.
Sean
avinalarf said:
Thank you Brent for your comprehensive appraisal.
Once I'd got over my initial discomfort I had concluded that I might have to suck it up.
I was not looking to try my luck but wanted a view from those with more practical knowledge than myself.
Glad I could offer some perspective that helps. Once I'd got over my initial discomfort I had concluded that I might have to suck it up.
I was not looking to try my luck but wanted a view from those with more practical knowledge than myself.
Ask for the old callipers back, they make great iPhone stands. Some people pay a fortune on ebay for them!!
Glad this wasn't posted a few days ago, since I just removed all 4 calipers from my DB9V (07). I probably would have been sweating bullets as I removed the bolts.
Interestingly, these bolts are all galvanized to prevent galling with the aluminum calipers. Wonder if it is a difference between 06 and 07, but I rather doubt it. And the torque requirement is pretty low (20 Nm), so they were pretty easy to remove. Note that they are meant to be single-use bolts, so I wonder if in the OPs case they might have been removed, and then reused and overtorqued? At 19K miles you wouldn't think so, but you never know.
Interestingly, these bolts are all galvanized to prevent galling with the aluminum calipers. Wonder if it is a difference between 06 and 07, but I rather doubt it. And the torque requirement is pretty low (20 Nm), so they were pretty easy to remove. Note that they are meant to be single-use bolts, so I wonder if in the OPs case they might have been removed, and then reused and overtorqued? At 19K miles you wouldn't think so, but you never know.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Glad this wasn't posted a few days ago, since I just removed all 4 calipers from my DB9V (07)...
I think the OP's breakage was related to the brake line attachment to the calipers. I too had my calipers off a few weeks ago (but kept the brake lines attached) and there are no threads inside the caliper mounting holes.yvr said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Glad this wasn't posted a few days ago, since I just removed all 4 calipers from my DB9V (07)...
I think the OP's breakage was related to the brake line attachment to the calipers. I too had my calipers off a few weeks ago (but kept the brake lines attached) and there are no threads inside the caliper mounting holes.Mako V12V said:
Why don't you agree to pay for one at cost plus their normal margin but ask for goodwill one the other, ie they replace at their expense as they cannot prove either way if the tech was responsible.
I agree with Mako, its all costs now so try to get a deal as it could well be part there fault.In fact scrap that i bet it is all there fault!
GlynV8 said:
If you end up paying for new callipers I would ask for the old callipers back.
Even if it is even to just inspect, but could be an easy repair. Either way would still have some value.
Otherwise the mechanic may just have a nice Brembo brake upgrade on his Ford Focus for Xmas
I did ask and I have got the old calipers back.Even if it is even to just inspect, but could be an easy repair. Either way would still have some value.
Otherwise the mechanic may just have a nice Brembo brake upgrade on his Ford Focus for Xmas
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Glad this wasn't posted a few days ago, since I just removed all 4 calipers from my DB9V (07). I probably would have been sweating bullets as I removed the bolts.
Interestingly, these bolts are all galvanized to prevent galling with the aluminum calipers. Wonder if it is a difference between 06 and 07, but I rather doubt it. And the torque requirement is pretty low (20 Nm), so they were pretty easy to remove. Note that they are meant to be single-use bolts, so I wonder if in the OPs case they might have been removed, and then reused and overtorqued? At 19K miles you wouldn't think so, but you never know.
Very helpful.Interestingly, these bolts are all galvanized to prevent galling with the aluminum calipers. Wonder if it is a difference between 06 and 07, but I rather doubt it. And the torque requirement is pretty low (20 Nm), so they were pretty easy to remove. Note that they are meant to be single-use bolts, so I wonder if in the OPs case they might have been removed, and then reused and overtorqued? At 19K miles you wouldn't think so, but you never know.
My lingering doubt is whether the mechanic took the appropriate care when there was resistance to the nut turning .
I obviously questioned this e.g. Whether the mechanic used a loosening agent to free the resistance.
I was told that an open end spanner has to be used to release the flexi hose,but I think you say you used a torque wrench or do I misunderstand you ?
I presume that whatever precautions one takes there is always a chance that a failure might occur.
cayman-black said:
I agree with Mako, its all costs now so try to get a deal as it could well be part there fault.
In fact scrap that i bet it is all there fault!
I asked for the cost of the calipers to be left off the invoice until I had chance to further investigate the matter but the In fact scrap that i bet it is all there fault!
service chief refused and was adamant that my car would not be released until the whole invoice was paid.
I had an awkward conversation about this as I thought that under the circumstances he was being unhelpful but I decided to pay as I thought it would be almost impossible to prove negligence.
As a "goodwill gesture" I was charged at cost price for the two calipers which I was told is £450 with no charge for fitting.
I pushed for a further discount but that was refused.
If as others have suggested I was just unlucky then I suppose that is not unreasonable.
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