ASTON MARTIN DB11 DEVELOPMENT
Discussion
We are looking forward to knowing more about the new DB11 on Tuesday.
Bamford Mike has occasionally written about some of the processes and work involved, in the development of new engines and models. By using the DVLA website, I can see that a huge number (at least 30) prototype cars are involved, which it seems are all eventually crushed. Just one aspect of the enormous new model development costs. All quite frightening, when hoping that the sales success will recover the investment outlay.
Would anyone be kind enough to give us a description, of what is involved during the various stages of a development process?
Are all those prototype cars built somewhere in secret, because the production line would obviously not be ready, or very secret?
Why are so many prototype cars required?
Things now must be very different, compared to the original Mini being originally sketched on a table napkin.
Jon39 said:
We are looking forward to knowing more about the new DB11 on Tuesday.
Bamford Mike has occasionally written about some of the processes and work involved, in the development of new engines and models. By using the DVLA website, I can see that a huge number (at least 30) prototype cars are involved, which it seems are all eventually crushed. Just one aspect of the enormous new model development costs. All quite frightening, when hoping that the sales success will recover the investment outlay.
Would anyone be kind enough to give us a description, of what is involved during the various stages of a development process?
Are all those prototype cars built somewhere in secret, because the production line would obviously not be ready, or very secret?
Why are so many prototype cars required?
Things now must be very different, compared to the original Mini being originally sketched on a table napkin.
I can't answer much but I can tell you that it is common for prototypes to be built on the production line - the assembly workers tend not to realise the implications very often, although not with the full new DB11 chassis & body shellBamford Mike has occasionally written about some of the processes and work involved, in the development of new engines and models. By using the DVLA website, I can see that a huge number (at least 30) prototype cars are involved, which it seems are all eventually crushed. Just one aspect of the enormous new model development costs. All quite frightening, when hoping that the sales success will recover the investment outlay.
Would anyone be kind enough to give us a description, of what is involved during the various stages of a development process?
Are all those prototype cars built somewhere in secret, because the production line would obviously not be ready, or very secret?
Why are so many prototype cars required?
Things now must be very different, compared to the original Mini being originally sketched on a table napkin.
By way of example, they had V12VS pre-prototypes & pre-prod cars going down the line of V12V and the workers just thought it was an 'auto V12V' - I know that because when I went to see my V12V on the line, before V12VS was announced in any way, I asked a chap whilst he was mid-working on my actual car, whilst we were stood on the line, whether the tyre sensors were the new or the old style - his answer was 'it's only the automatic v12 vantages that have the new style sensors' - he didn't realise the implication of his statement......there were, officially, no automatic v12 vantages at that stage but actually, by putting them down the line and saying nothing, it arguably arouses less suspicion than going out of your way to tell workers it's top secret or trying to build them separate to the main line
Incidentally I know V12VS isn't an 'auto' - they were the factory worker's words - he just saw 2 pedals and no stick - he was responsible for the marriage of body shell to chassis & engine, which I was lucky enough to watch happen for my actual car whilst there
Its a large and complicated process and not easy to describe succinctly, but here goes... All manufacturers differ in the details, but the basic premise is what is known as a System 'V' approach. At the start of the process, the marketing team sets out the basic target market for the vehicle, how it relates to (usually 3 or 4) key competitors), where it has to be better and where perhaps may not need to be as good as rivals, (for example, a Bentley does not need to weigh less than a McLaren). With this data, the Program Team of engineers assigns measurable results to these attributes (e.g. Weight must be 1400Kg Max).
This happens across all aspects of the car, everything from performance to NVH and handling, engine noise etc. Its a huge task. These assigned values are then "traded" between the various teams until a cohesive and balanced set of vehicle targets are arrived at. This point marks the top of the first leg of the 'V'. The vehicle level targets are then broken down or cascaded down to system level, sub system level, and finally component level. Again using weight as an example, Chassis systems may have a weight target of 400Kg. Within this, the front subframe assembly may have a target of 90 Kg, the front corner a weight of 35Kg and finally the wheel a target of 5Kg.
Each system, subsystem, assembly and component will have a design and FE Analysis regime to ensure it meets these targets. This point in the program is at the bottom of the 'V' where all design work is complete and drawings can be issued for prototype manufacture.
Tracking back up the other side of the V is the build and test element. Parts are produced, assemblies and systems built and finally vehicles are built to evaluate the reality of the designs. This may happen 3 or 4 times in one program, with each phase reaching ever more mature development until 'Hard' or production tools are manufactured. These cars, which are by now very close to the finished article with the exception of not being manufactured on a fully installed production line.
30 cars is actually quite low for a modern program. On one job I experienced over 200 prototypes turning up for one model (of mondeo), just for durability testing at one test site. The costs tehrefore are huge and there is constant pressure to replace prototypes with computer based analysis. The later you are in the process, the cheaper the parts and hence vehicles become until ultimately you are paying production car prices.
This is the major problem for companies like Aston, because they cannot afford 6-700 million dollars to develop a new platform and have to do everything on a shoestring. This is why you can jump into a Fiesta and confidently drive to China with very little worry of any incident because it has been so comprehensively sorted. They also do not have the sheer amount of engineers that a large OEM would bring to bear.
Hope this is of interest.
This happens across all aspects of the car, everything from performance to NVH and handling, engine noise etc. Its a huge task. These assigned values are then "traded" between the various teams until a cohesive and balanced set of vehicle targets are arrived at. This point marks the top of the first leg of the 'V'. The vehicle level targets are then broken down or cascaded down to system level, sub system level, and finally component level. Again using weight as an example, Chassis systems may have a weight target of 400Kg. Within this, the front subframe assembly may have a target of 90 Kg, the front corner a weight of 35Kg and finally the wheel a target of 5Kg.
Each system, subsystem, assembly and component will have a design and FE Analysis regime to ensure it meets these targets. This point in the program is at the bottom of the 'V' where all design work is complete and drawings can be issued for prototype manufacture.
Tracking back up the other side of the V is the build and test element. Parts are produced, assemblies and systems built and finally vehicles are built to evaluate the reality of the designs. This may happen 3 or 4 times in one program, with each phase reaching ever more mature development until 'Hard' or production tools are manufactured. These cars, which are by now very close to the finished article with the exception of not being manufactured on a fully installed production line.
30 cars is actually quite low for a modern program. On one job I experienced over 200 prototypes turning up for one model (of mondeo), just for durability testing at one test site. The costs tehrefore are huge and there is constant pressure to replace prototypes with computer based analysis. The later you are in the process, the cheaper the parts and hence vehicles become until ultimately you are paying production car prices.
This is the major problem for companies like Aston, because they cannot afford 6-700 million dollars to develop a new platform and have to do everything on a shoestring. This is why you can jump into a Fiesta and confidently drive to China with very little worry of any incident because it has been so comprehensively sorted. They also do not have the sheer amount of engineers that a large OEM would bring to bear.
Hope this is of interest.
Thank you very much Jellinek.
I thought it must be complicated these days. The Sir Alec Issigonis method, with his table napkin is long gone. Mind you, they did make that major blunder, with the sills letting water into the early cars.
I notice on your Profile page, that we are not included amongst your styling favourites.
Love your Mercedes.
Nice answer from Jellinek on what is a complex time consuming process. I have worked in automotive for 25 years and development gets more complex every year with new regulations driving safety, emissions and fuel economy and technology driving what we can now have in our vehicles; think back to your first car, did you even have power steering?
To get a reasonable idea of vehicle development watch "A faster horse" a documentary about the 2015 Ford Mustang programme. It is available on Netflix in my home country, not sure about others but most probably.
Informative thanks Jelinek, but I bet that's just the tip of the engineering iceberg!
What more fascinates me is how a car is built with a design character like Aston Martin that appeals to the masses. Engineers are clever, but designers who can capture this pleasure point have a rare talent. I'm getting very excited to see the BD11 from the reports I've read so far as it seems to be shaping up to be another AM success story.
What more fascinates me is how a car is built with a design character like Aston Martin that appeals to the masses. Engineers are clever, but designers who can capture this pleasure point have a rare talent. I'm getting very excited to see the BD11 from the reports I've read so far as it seems to be shaping up to be another AM success story.
kensilver said:
Informative thanks Jelinek, but I bet that's just the tip of the engineering iceberg!
What more fascinates me is how a car is built with a design character like Aston Martin that appeals to the masses. Engineers are clever, but designers who can capture this pleasure point have a rare talent. I'm getting very excited to see the BD11 from the reports I've read so far as it seems to be shaping up to be another AM success story.
When I went to the Vantage Homecoming event one of the speakers explained the attraction of the design has a lot to do with the use of the "golden ratio" throughout the car. I have no idea whether that was correct but as a lay person it seemed reasonable to me! What more fascinates me is how a car is built with a design character like Aston Martin that appeals to the masses. Engineers are clever, but designers who can capture this pleasure point have a rare talent. I'm getting very excited to see the BD11 from the reports I've read so far as it seems to be shaping up to be another AM success story.
steveatesh said:
kensilver said:
Informative thanks Jelinek, but I bet that's just the tip of the engineering iceberg!
What more fascinates me is how a car is built with a design character like Aston Martin that appeals to the masses. Engineers are clever, but designers who can capture this pleasure point have a rare talent. I'm getting very excited to see the BD11 from the reports I've read so far as it seems to be shaping up to be another AM success story.
When I went to the Vantage Homecoming event one of the speakers explained the attraction of the design has a lot to do with the use of the "golden ratio" throughout the car. I have no idea whether that was correct but as a lay person it seemed reasonable to me! What more fascinates me is how a car is built with a design character like Aston Martin that appeals to the masses. Engineers are clever, but designers who can capture this pleasure point have a rare talent. I'm getting very excited to see the BD11 from the reports I've read so far as it seems to be shaping up to be another AM success story.
Who knows how they manufacture that magic, but interesting to see that Ian Callum's Jaguar XK/F-Type design is not nearly as attractive (to me) as his successful Vanquish.1 and DB9 designs.
But it's funny how subtle the design process is. I didn't like the DB10 as much as other models. On a scale of 10 it was only an 8.5 to me
, but the DBX is a stunner even though it keeps a lot of the quirky design points of the DB10. Jon39 said:
Thank you very much Jellinek.
I thought it must be complicated these days. The Sir Alec Issigonis method, with his table napkin is long gone. Mind you, they did make that major blunder, with the sills letting water into the early cars.
I notice on your Profile page, that we are not included amongst your styling favourites.
Love your Mercedes.
Thanks for that. My W124 has sadly gone, but for two years I ran it as a daily driver (70 miles a day) and she never let me down. For a 30+ year old car with over 150k on the clock, that kind of engineering integrity leaves its mark. And such clean lines too.I thought it must be complicated these days. The Sir Alec Issigonis method, with his table napkin is long gone. Mind you, they did make that major blunder, with the sills letting water into the early cars.
I notice on your Profile page, that we are not included amongst your styling favourites.
Love your Mercedes.
Styling though, is such a subjective field and I am definitely no expert, but for me the high waistlines, squared off corners and masculine creases cannot compete with the svelte lines of cars like the Muira and the original Elite, but I am probably a dinosaur in this respect!
Jellinek said:
Thanks for that. My W124 has sadly gone, but for two years I ran it as a daily driver (70 miles a day) and she never let me down. For a 30+ year old car with over 150k on the clock, that kind of engineering integrity leaves its mark. And such clean lines too.
Styling though, is such a subjective field and I am definitely no expert, but for me the high waistlines, squared off corners and masculine creases cannot compete with the svelte lines of cars like the Muira and the original Elite, but I am probably a dinosaur in this respect!
Agree with you on Muira and1960s Lotus Elite.Styling though, is such a subjective field and I am definitely no expert, but for me the high waistlines, squared off corners and masculine creases cannot compete with the svelte lines of cars like the Muira and the original Elite, but I am probably a dinosaur in this respect!
Just wondered if the Vantage pre-model year 2012.25, might be eligible for your list.
Certainly a low waist line, no squared off corners, and definitely no creases at all.
It also has a special attribute, which might be to do with styling. Being let out of side turnings immediately. There must be a reason for that to keep happening.
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