Zagato Vanquish
Discussion
Had a dream AM was to launch a Zagato Vanquish with the same technical layout as that of GT12, 600HP, possibly channeled through sportshift III ( makes more sense than a touchtronic III?) and a price tag close to half a million quid, production limited to 99 cars. Anyone else had the same dream?
This could be the last of the NA incarnation Vanquish, I remain sceptical if AM would manage to shift all 99 allocations this time round as the previous Zagato fell short of target.
This could be the last of the NA incarnation Vanquish, I remain sceptical if AM would manage to shift all 99 allocations this time round as the previous Zagato fell short of target.
carbonfib3r said:
Had a dream AM was to launch a Zagato Vanquish with the same technical layout as that of GT12, 600HP, possibly channeled through sportshift III ( makes more sense than a touchtronic III?) and a price tag close to half a million quid, production limited to 99 cars. Anyone else had the same dream?
This could be the last of the NA incarnation Vanquish, I remain sceptical if AM would manage to shift all 99 allocations this time round as the previous Zagato fell short of target.
Previous zag (I.e. V12V Zag) was mechanically no different to donor car, priced at £400k and in a slightly different climateThis could be the last of the NA incarnation Vanquish, I remain sceptical if AM would manage to shift all 99 allocations this time round as the previous Zagato fell short of target.
Addressing those 3 points in sequence, you could buy the donor car with identical mechanicals for V12V Zag. I'm not going to comment on the new vanquish zag mechanicals or even the number being produced but if it were, for example, as you describe above, then it's not a set of mechanicals you can buy today unless you buy a used GT12 for say £500k - that makes the Zag good value at £500k
Dealing with the price, £500k in a climate when LaFs are £2mil +, GT12s are £500k, F12 TDFs probably around £750k (list c. £300k), etc and bearing in mind we are a few yrs on, it doesn't look so bad
In terms of climate, I also mean that today, we have loads of limited ed cars trading at monster premiums over list (675LT spider & coupe, 458 special spider & coupe, F12 TDF, 911R, various 911 & cayman GT cars, P1, 918, etc), we have GT12 and ONE 77 trading at huge premium over list, etc. That will give buyers of these types of cars more confidence
Also in terms of climate, Aston are probably viewed more highly as a brand on the rise than 3 yrs ago
Of course in addition to all this, Aston have developed a VIP list since V12V Zag from buyers of Vulcan, original buyers of V12V Zag (majority of whom still own that car presumably based on how seldom you see one for sale), new buyers of AM RB001, etc. If you've bought a Vulcan for £2M+ and just put your name down for a £2M+ RB001, it's probably almost a no brainer to go for this at £500k
Finally, there is no question that whilst I think GT12 was monstrously better value than zag because they both have bespoke CF bodywork but one had massively uprated mechanicals and the other didn't have any, the market (of buyers with multi million pound collections) views zagato as a name with incredible cache - otherwise, how did they even sell any V12V Zags at that price
My guess is that's why this car had pretty much sold out before the dealers even got the bulletin
carbonfib3r said:
Had a dream AM was to launch a Zagato Vanquish with the same technical layout as that of GT12, 600HP, possibly channeled through sportshift III ( makes more sense than a touchtronic III?) and a price tag close to half a million quid, production limited to 99 cars. Anyone else had the same dream?
This could be the last of the NA incarnation Vanquish, I remain sceptical if AM would manage to shift all 99 allocations this time round as the previous Zagato fell short of target.
I take it you didn't see the thread started by Flugplatz yesterday which announced the car and at the same time said they were all sold. So, if your dream was to order one and you haven't already you may have a problem This could be the last of the NA incarnation Vanquish, I remain sceptical if AM would manage to shift all 99 allocations this time round as the previous Zagato fell short of target.
If I knew how to post a link I would but if you go to Page 2 of the index you will see it.
I can't help but think Aston Martin are being very clever here. The margins on these "specials" are very high, the demand seems strong and I would argue they bring both a certain halo effect to the brand (and money to put into development of the "mainstream" models).
The question I would raise though is this? Will there be the same demand for "specials" based on the new forced-induction engines? Or will that appeal less to purists?
The question I would raise though is this? Will there be the same demand for "specials" based on the new forced-induction engines? Or will that appeal less to purists?
telum01 said:
I think that question applies to the entire product range - not just special editions.
I don't think the turbo engines will have a negative effect on AML. It'll make them competitive and allow them to move into a more competitive performance category.
agreed.....although there is a counter argument that N/A would give them a positive point of differentiation, ultimately given how the bulk of other manufacturers are moving towards turbocharged engines, the fact AML are too shouldn't harm them and as you say, allows them to remain competitive performancewise which whether we like it or not, is important for salesI don't think the turbo engines will have a negative effect on AML. It'll make them competitive and allow them to move into a more competitive performance category.
jonby said:
agreed.....although there is a counter argument that N/A would give them a positive point of differentiation, ultimately given how the bulk of other manufacturers are moving towards turbocharged engines, the fact AML are too shouldn't harm them and as you say, allows them to remain competitive performancewise which whether we like it or not, is important for sales
Absolutely. And I'd love for Aston to keep n/a engines alive. But the political climate just won't let it happen - not in the US, UK, EU or anywhere, really. It's a shame. At least Andy has publicly stated he'll continue offering a manual transmission!Absolutely Jonby. As strange as it may sound, GT12 at a quarter of a million quid is considered to be a real bargain next to a V12 Zagato despite stronger performance and its racing pedigree. And the fact that GT12 stands as the pinnacle of the Vantage range, it is worth every penny of the asking price. Whereas Zagatos are generally considered to be mere cosmetic exercise for keen collectors, their true value are in the eyes of beholders.
It is interesting to see when the bubble is going to bust since the market is filled with punters who don't give a s
t about what these limited edition cars represent. F12 TDF, 458 Speciale, GT12 and the mighty One-77 mark the end of arguably the greatest era of NA supercars, and it's a celebration we petrolheads should all cherish. It's sad that a good portion of these Legends change hands even before being registered.
Car manufacturers tend to misinterpret the market by launching endless limited editions when one final last hurrah is all it takes to revive its glory. Unnecessary variant limited editions may financially be feasible but they simply ruin what would have been a grand finale. GT8 may prove to be a successful marketing/cosmetic excercise, but it's true status still remains to be seen in the Vantage range. As much as I'd love to order a Zagato Vanquish, I am still struggling to capture the essence of the car, especially with an asking price for half a million quid, one can only wonder if the bubble is really on the verge of busting.
Let's wait and see.
It is interesting to see when the bubble is going to bust since the market is filled with punters who don't give a s
t about what these limited edition cars represent. F12 TDF, 458 Speciale, GT12 and the mighty One-77 mark the end of arguably the greatest era of NA supercars, and it's a celebration we petrolheads should all cherish. It's sad that a good portion of these Legends change hands even before being registered. Car manufacturers tend to misinterpret the market by launching endless limited editions when one final last hurrah is all it takes to revive its glory. Unnecessary variant limited editions may financially be feasible but they simply ruin what would have been a grand finale. GT8 may prove to be a successful marketing/cosmetic excercise, but it's true status still remains to be seen in the Vantage range. As much as I'd love to order a Zagato Vanquish, I am still struggling to capture the essence of the car, especially with an asking price for half a million quid, one can only wonder if the bubble is really on the verge of busting.
Let's wait and see.
Edited by carbonfib3r on Saturday 7th May 03:58
Absolutely Jonby. As strange as it may sound, GT12 at a quarter of a million quid is considered to be a real bargain next to a V12 Zagato despite stronger performance and its racing pedigree. And the fact that GT12 stands as the pinnacle of the Vantage range, it is worth every penny of the asking price. Whereas Zagatos are generally considered to be mere cosmetic exercise for keen collectors, their true value are in the eyes of beholders.
It is interesting to see when the bubble is going to bust since the market is filled with punters who don't give a st about what these limited edition cars represent. F12 TDF, 458 Speciale, GT12 and the mighty One-77 mark the end of arguably the greatest era of NA supercars, and it's a celebration we petrolheads should all cherish. It's sad that a good portion of these Legends change hands even before being registered.
Car manufacturers tend to misinterpret the market by launching endless limited editions when one final last hurrah is all it takes to revive its glory. Unnecessary variant limited editions may financially be feasible but they simply ruin what would have been a grand finale. GT8 may prove to be a successful marketing/cosmetic excercise, but it's true status still remains to be seen in the Vantage range. As much as I'd love to order a Zagato Vanquish, I am still struggling to capture the essence of the car, especially with an asking price for half a million quid, one can only wonder if the bubble is really on the verge of busting.
Let's wait and see.
It is interesting to see when the bubble is going to bust since the market is filled with punters who don't give a s
t about what these limited edition cars represent. F12 TDF, 458 Speciale, GT12 and the mighty One-77 mark the end of arguably the greatest era of NA supercars, and it's a celebration we petrolheads should all cherish. It's sad that a good portion of these Legends change hands even before being registered. Car manufacturers tend to misinterpret the market by launching endless limited editions when one final last hurrah is all it takes to revive its glory. Unnecessary variant limited editions may financially be feasible but they simply ruin what would have been a grand finale. GT8 may prove to be a successful marketing/cosmetic excercise, but it's true status still remains to be seen in the Vantage range. As much as I'd love to order a Zagato Vanquish, I am still struggling to capture the essence of the car, especially with an asking price for half a million quid, one can only wonder if the bubble is really on the verge of busting.
Let's wait and see.
Edited by carbonfib3r on Saturday 7th May 10:40
[quote=carbonfib3r]Absolutely Jonby. As strange as it may sound, GT12 at a quarter of a million quid is considered to be a real bargain next to a V12 Zagato despite stronger performance and its racing pedigree. And the fact that GT12 stands as the pinnacle of the Vantage range, it is worth every penny of the asking price. Whereas Zagatos are generally considered to be mere cosmetic exercise for keen collectors, their true value are in the eyes of beholders.
I have to disagree with you there, the zag is surely the pinnacle of the vantage range with its bespoke body , these were in production before the rush to buy any thing from any manufacturer that is limited and has a body kit on.
As exclusive as the gt cars are from the high end manufacturers, are they really race cars for the road or just clever emperors new clothes marketing by the manufacturers in this niche, the limited numbers of the zag and the fact that it didn't sell out will ensure the prices are kept high no matter the market and will be regarded as number 1 in the range
Just my opinion
I have to disagree with you there, the zag is surely the pinnacle of the vantage range with its bespoke body , these were in production before the rush to buy any thing from any manufacturer that is limited and has a body kit on.
As exclusive as the gt cars are from the high end manufacturers, are they really race cars for the road or just clever emperors new clothes marketing by the manufacturers in this niche, the limited numbers of the zag and the fact that it didn't sell out will ensure the prices are kept high no matter the market and will be regarded as number 1 in the range
Just my opinion
Edited by B4rnst4ble on Saturday 7th May 07:38
Whilst the current frantic buying behaviour where money is worth nothing enables Aston Martin to find customers for all these so-called limited editions, I think the magnitude of the offering starts affecting the desirability. Everybody knows what a DB4 GT Zagato looks like because they are iconic and rare. In 20 years time people will get very confused about all these special editions that came out of Gaydon during 2015-16 and it will all dilute the brand and affect desirability down the line. This all looks more like exploiting the current climate rather than brand building for the long term.
hornbaek said:
Whilst the current frantic buying behaviour where money is worth nothing enables Aston Martin to find customers for all these so-called limited editions, I think the magnitude of the offering starts affecting the desirability. Everybody knows what a DB4 GT Zagato looks like because they are iconic and rare. In 20 years time people will get very confused about all these special editions that came out of Gaydon during 2015-16 and it will all dilute the brand and affect desirability down the line. This all looks more like exploiting the current climate rather than brand building for the long term.
I'm not convinced by that thinking. There are two types of Aston owner in my book; those who are passing owners (its just another sports car, they buy one, own it for a couple of years, move on to the next sports car) and those who are genuinely marque enthusiasts, I suspect most on this and the AMOC forum fall into the latter camp. Those transient owners of an Aston Martin wouldn't recognise a DB4 GT Zagato, they'd probably recognise a DB5 (oh and mistake all the DB4 models through to DB6 as a DB5 too) but that's it.
The only people who will be buying a 25 year old Aston Martin in 20 years time are going to be brand enthusiasts, not casual owners. And as such I'd be disappointed if they can't tell or learn about the difference between a V12 Zagato and a One-77
B4rnst4ble said:
I have to disagree with you there, the zag is surely the pinnacle of the vantage range with its bespoke body , these were in production before the rush to buy any thing from any manufacturer that is limited and has a body kit on.
As exclusive as the gt cars are from the high end manufacturers, are they really race cars for the road or just clever emperors new clothes marketing by the manufacturers in this niche, the limited numbers of the zag and the fact that it didn't sell out will ensure the prices are kept high no matter the market and will be regarded as number 1 in the range
Just my opinion
Opinion respected. Don't get me wrong, I too love Zags, but not at double the price of standard car let alone tripled. As exclusive as the gt cars are from the high end manufacturers, are they really race cars for the road or just clever emperors new clothes marketing by the manufacturers in this niche, the limited numbers of the zag and the fact that it didn't sell out will ensure the prices are kept high no matter the market and will be regarded as number 1 in the range
Just my opinion
Edited by B4rnst4ble on Saturday 7th May 07:38
hornbaek said:
Whilst the current frantic buying behaviour where money is worth nothing enables Aston Martin to find customers for all these so-called limited editions, I think the magnitude of the offering starts affecting the desirability. Everybody knows what a DB4 GT Zagato looks like because they are iconic and rare. In 20 years time people will get very confused about all these special editions that came out of Gaydon during 2015-16 and it will all dilute the brand and affect desirability down the line. This all looks more like exploiting the current climate rather than brand building for the long term.
Point well made. I am with you on this completely. Aston need to play their cards more smartly to avoid sabotaging its brand credibility. Lamborghini being a classic example launching endless confusingly named LP570 Gallados that no one wanted which left dealers weeping for years.
Edited by carbonfib3r on Saturday 7th May 11:08
carbonfib3r said:
B4rnst4ble said:
I have to disagree with you there, the zag is surely the pinnacle of the vantage range with its bespoke body , these were in production before the rush to buy any thing from any manufacturer that is limited and has a body kit on.
As exclusive as the gt cars are from the high end manufacturers, are they really race cars for the road or just clever emperors new clothes marketing by the manufacturers in this niche, the limited numbers of the zag and the fact that it didn't sell out will ensure the prices are kept high no matter the market and will be regarded as number 1 in the range
Just my opinion
Opinion respected. Don't get me wrong, I too love Zags, but not at double the price of standard car let alone tripled. As exclusive as the gt cars are from the high end manufacturers, are they really race cars for the road or just clever emperors new clothes marketing by the manufacturers in this niche, the limited numbers of the zag and the fact that it didn't sell out will ensure the prices are kept high no matter the market and will be regarded as number 1 in the range
Just my opinion
Edited by B4rnst4ble on Saturday 7th May 07:38
carbonfib3r said:
Point well made. I am with you on this completely. Aston need to play their cards more smartly to avoid sabotaging its brand credibility. Lamborghini being a classic example launching endless confusingly named LP570 Gallados that no one wanted which left dealers weeping for years.
Edited by carbonfib3r on Saturday 7th May 11:08
Brand credibility is supported by Aston Martins low numbers, and versatility to produce specials, each one of which has its admirers, both short and long term.
B4rnst4ble said:
Isn't that the point of the zag be it the old vantage zag or the new vanq zag you are paying for the design and a coach built car in many respects rather than just a car with bolt on body kits that the gt cars are from whoever the manufacturer. You can buy a supermarket suit , you can buy a high street suit , you can buy a made to measure suit and you can buy a exclusive designer made to measure suit , which is the pinnacle imo
Yes and no. Zagatos are indeed all about exclusivity and unique design. I myself am extremely fond of a few particular Zags but certainly not the entire range. Having said that, there are still plenty of well off collectors who can easily afford one but do not appreciate the design or whatever the reason, hence the limited numbers are not just limited by the factory production capability, but to a certain extent by the cars' relatively weak demand. I was offered an allocation for the Zag Vanquish yesterday with a specific production number even rumour has the car sold out, I am not prepared to make a commitment without knowing what the car will look like nor its exact technical spec no matter how special it is. I guess I am just not within Zag's handful loyal clientele.
Edited by carbonfib3r on Saturday 7th May 16:01
roughrider said:
Wasn't that mainly due to the R8 Audi, which was virtually the same car, at a fraction of the price of the Lambo?
Brand credibility is supported by Aston Martins low numbers, and versatility to produce specials, each one of which has its admirers, both short and long term.
To some R8 may have been an affordable alternative to the Gallardo, but given how different these two cars perform on the road and the diversity of the design language between the two companies, it really is quite hard to associate the two models with one another. Brand credibility is supported by Aston Martins low numbers, and versatility to produce specials, each one of which has its admirers, both short and long term.
Lambo really had it coming itself as there were some 29 variants of second gen Gallardos, had I owned one I'd be quite pissed off with Lambo and frustrated to be "just" another Gallardo owner. Aston is looking dangerously close to take the same route which will likely put off many potential buyers IMHO.
Edited by carbonfib3r on Saturday 7th May 15:49
carbonfib3r said:
I was offered an allocation for the Zag Vanquish yesterday with a specific production number even rumour has the car sold out, I am not prepared to make a commitment without knowing what the car will look like nor its exact technical spec no matter how special it is. I guess I am just not within Zag's handful loyal clientele.
Dealers have pictures of the car to show you.I looked at 10 pictures of the car last week.
The thing that bothers me a little is the design is actually in house Aston Martin not Zagato but it will carry a Zagato name. I am unclear as to what Zagatos involvement has actually been.
In December 2007, Marek Reichman and Aston Martin opened the new Design Studio at its Gaydon Headquarters. This purpose-built modern structure houses the company's design team. Providing the company with a dedicated studio space for the first time, the new Design Studio is an industry-leading facility at the heart of Aston Martin's operations. Designed, planned and constructed in less than 12 months, the elegant pre-fabricated timber structure received a RIBA Award from the Royal Institute of British Architects in May 2008.
Edited by Flugplatz on Saturday 7th May 17:42
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