I value Aston Martin transparency, do you?
Discussion
I came across an article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/31/dieselgate-the-only-car-that-actually-passes-new-real-world-emis/) on advertised fuel consumption stats produced/made-up by manufacturers...nothing new here, after all, Dieselgate was a massive eye-opener for many people to understand (some of) the dirty tactics adopted by some manufacturers to, ultimately, sell more cars.
More interestingly, the article stated the Vantage 4.7l is the only vehicle to achieve its advertised fuel consumption stats. It doesn't change my day-to-day, but I personally came to the conclusion I value a lot the "transparency" factor.
On the same token, isn't transparency the first factor for a brand when selling a "limited edition" product to its customer? With that I mean knowing exactly the number I am allocated and the total production.
Based on some research and stuff I've heard from insiders, dodgy tactics are widespread across the industry. No wonder why there are plenty of plaques stating "1 of" xxx rather than precisely numbering the chassis (i.e. "x out of xxx"). I think AM is pretty transparent on that front.
Also, the above applies to racing. If you had the opportunity to follow this year's Le Mans 24hours' GTE race, probably, you already know what I am about to talk about. Aside the debate around the "Balance of Performance", it was clear some manufacturers were sandbagging their true performance throughout the event (from testing to the race itself) so to win. (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/le-mans/problems-balance-performance)
So, do you consider transparency as a factor when making a purchase? Do you think a transparent manufacturer obtains more sales in the long-run (and IF survives), relative a non-so-transparent one?
Ciao,
F
More interestingly, the article stated the Vantage 4.7l is the only vehicle to achieve its advertised fuel consumption stats. It doesn't change my day-to-day, but I personally came to the conclusion I value a lot the "transparency" factor.
On the same token, isn't transparency the first factor for a brand when selling a "limited edition" product to its customer? With that I mean knowing exactly the number I am allocated and the total production.
Based on some research and stuff I've heard from insiders, dodgy tactics are widespread across the industry. No wonder why there are plenty of plaques stating "1 of" xxx rather than precisely numbering the chassis (i.e. "x out of xxx"). I think AM is pretty transparent on that front.
Also, the above applies to racing. If you had the opportunity to follow this year's Le Mans 24hours' GTE race, probably, you already know what I am about to talk about. Aside the debate around the "Balance of Performance", it was clear some manufacturers were sandbagging their true performance throughout the event (from testing to the race itself) so to win. (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/le-mans/problems-balance-performance)
So, do you consider transparency as a factor when making a purchase? Do you think a transparent manufacturer obtains more sales in the long-run (and IF survives), relative a non-so-transparent one?
Ciao,
F
FFM said:
If you had the opportunity to follow this year's Le Mans 24hours' GTE race, probably, you already know what I am about to talk about. Aside the debate around the "Balance of Performance", it was clear some manufacturers were sandbagging their true performance throughout the event (from testing to the race itself) so to win. (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/le-mans/problems-balance-performance)
I think there were even rumours about one particular team, sandbagging in the previous rounds of the WEC. I suppose though, the 50th anniversary is a very important year.
FFM said:
So, do you consider transparency as a factor when making a purchase?
However, I have never worked out how to deal with tradesmen, many of whom do not tell the truth.
My recent technique, to look them in the eye and say, "Is this a job that you really want", has failed. They always say "Yes", but then you never see them again. What a waste of time. Tips for me, anyone?
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 2nd September 12:35
Jon39 said:
I think there were even rumours about one particular team, sandbagging in the previous rounds of the WEC.
Yes I agree, but that to me was definitely less dodgy than the actual Le Mans event. Maybe they were just doing reliability testing on their new cars at Silversone and Spa pushing them progressively up towards Le Mans
There's an editorial comment in this weeks Autocar about how McLaren have annoyed a lot of people by saying they would only ever produce 500 675LTs and then actually making a 1000 by doubling up with a Spider
I guess if I'd bought the coupe I'd also be a bit annoyed as in the case of those cars it was a guaranteed hit to residual values
I guess if I'd bought the coupe I'd also be a bit annoyed as in the case of those cars it was a guaranteed hit to residual values
RobDown said:
There's an editorial comment in this weeks Autocar about how McLaren have annoyed a lot of people by saying they would only ever produce 500 675LTs and then actually making a 1000 by doubling up with a Spider
I guess if I'd bought the coupe I'd also be a bit annoyed as in the case of those cars it was a guaranteed hit to residual values
Funnily enough Aston did this in the 80s with the Vantage zagato: we'll make 50...50 cars sold. Then they made 25 more as Zagato Volante. The famed PU bumpers had, what Victor Gauntlett said pop-back bumpers. When this new technology didnt work, and the bumpers didnt pop back into place after a knock but needed replacement, his reply was to "pop back and we'll repair them for you"I guess if I'd bought the coupe I'd also be a bit annoyed as in the case of those cars it was a guaranteed hit to residual values
The book by Dudley Gershon on the late 60s/early 70s period says they went to great lengths to be truthful, but were up against the other manufacturers (US in particular) who would make up massive power outputs to justify their equally massive engines. Aston 5.3 V8 was almost twice as powerful as some American V8's of simmilar vintage and size in realiy.
Mind you, Bez and transparency is a moot point.
FFM said:
So, do you consider transparency as a factor when making a purchase? Do you think a transparent manufacturer obtains more sales in the long-run (and IF survives), relative a non-so-transparent one?
Ciao,
F
We'd be very naive nowadays to believe that almost every company we deal with, in all walks of life, isn't up to something they wouldn't want divulged. The difference is between bending rules and blatantly taking the p*ss like Volkswagen and the other manufacturers who are doing the same thing. Ciao,
F
Would it stop me buying, probably not unless it was obviously causing harm or highly unethical. It's up to the governments and regulatory bodies to stop the cheating but they can't even do that internally, never mind externally.
Aston do seem to be going for lots of limited editions lately but then other makes do too.
e.g.
Car
Sporty one: Jaguar
Sporty one: XK
Sporty one: XK R
Sporty one: XK R S
Sporty one: XK R S GT
etc. Just keep adding letters of the alphabet and alternate between coupe and convertible.
Once you get above the 'standard' sporty model all the add-on bits start to look a bit tacky and you are trading style for negligible performance increases that you only notice on a track.
e.g.
Car
Sporty one: Jaguar
Sporty one: XK
Sporty one: XK R
Sporty one: XK R S
Sporty one: XK R S GT
etc. Just keep adding letters of the alphabet and alternate between coupe and convertible.
Once you get above the 'standard' sporty model all the add-on bits start to look a bit tacky and you are trading style for negligible performance increases that you only notice on a track.
I wouldn't read too much into it. VW and all of the bigger brands would have had the budget to spend a bit of time cheating the tests - I.e. Working out where the readings were being taken, and go to the extent of writing maps which manipulated rolling road situations.
Aston would not have had the excess r&d time or budget to fanny about with this, so it wouldn't have been a consideration. Additionally, fuel consumption will have been the absolute last worry of prospective buyers. Like many others, I didn't even consider fuel economy or emissions when I bought mine. We tend to just accept that that it'll be poor at best.
...and finally, as a company, Aston Martin came out as being a vocal supporter of Brexit ahead of the vote- so as much as I love their cars, you can make your own mind up on their stewardship.
Aston would not have had the excess r&d time or budget to fanny about with this, so it wouldn't have been a consideration. Additionally, fuel consumption will have been the absolute last worry of prospective buyers. Like many others, I didn't even consider fuel economy or emissions when I bought mine. We tend to just accept that that it'll be poor at best.
...and finally, as a company, Aston Martin came out as being a vocal supporter of Brexit ahead of the vote- so as much as I love their cars, you can make your own mind up on their stewardship.
Edited by NickXX on Saturday 3rd September 22:33
RobDown said:
There's an editorial comment in this weeks Autocar about how McLaren have annoyed a lot of people by saying they would only ever produce 500 675LTs and then actually making a 1000 by doubling up with a Spider
I guess if I'd bought the coupe I'd also be a bit annoyed as in the case of those cars it was a guaranteed hit to residual values
Although in all truth original LT owners are still laughing all the way to the bank because every one of them is selling (note, actually selling) way above list. I guess if I'd bought the coupe I'd also be a bit annoyed as in the case of those cars it was a guaranteed hit to residual values
Agent57 said:
Aston do seem to be going for lots of limited editions lately but then other makes do too.
e.g.
Car
Sporty one: Jaguar
Sporty one: XK
Sporty one: XK R
Sporty one: XK R S
Sporty one: XK R S GT
etc. Just keep adding letters of the alphabet and alternate between coupe and convertible.
Once you get above the 'standard' sporty model all the add-on bits start to look a bit tacky and you are trading style for negligible performance increases that you only notice on a track.
Yes it's a common example, but then I believe this is mostly to do with product extension. As long as the additional limited edition models offer a different "experience" to the others (i.e. type of driving, for instance) and they are not advertised as the "Last of something", I think that's fine (for the customer perspective)..the 675lt example is borderline in terms of transparency, in my opnion, and I see why some coupe' owners may not be super happy of having a roadsters around..e.g.
Car
Sporty one: Jaguar
Sporty one: XK
Sporty one: XK R
Sporty one: XK R S
Sporty one: XK R S GT
etc. Just keep adding letters of the alphabet and alternate between coupe and convertible.
Once you get above the 'standard' sporty model all the add-on bits start to look a bit tacky and you are trading style for negligible performance increases that you only notice on a track.
FFM said:
LordBretSinclair said:
So what do people think about AM's transparency in regard to the 101 "last ever" V12 Vantage manual roadsters????
Don't recall, was that advertised as the "Last ever"?Having said that by producing it as a "limited edition" (101?), a buyer would naturally infer that the company won't produce anything else too similar in the near future (albeit realistically AML were always going to produce a new 2 seater roadster at some point, but it would have been reasonable to assume not a Vantage V12 manual one).
We were told it would be the only chance to have a vantage with a v12 engine, a soft top and a manual box. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out that they probably weren't planning the manual option for V12VS when V12VR was launched and instead, thought full vantage replacement would be here by now
As with the 675LT, there is unlikely to be a watertight legal case but the factory are well aware that people (myself included) bought on that basis
I see a lot of comments on this area in general including some of the porsche models, more on 675 than V12V, where posters suggest something along the lines of you shouldn't buy cars to appreciate in value but instead to drive. That's all fine but the reality is, few people can afford to spend 6 figures on a car without being intelligent enough to look at every aspect of a 6 figure purchase including depreciation. There is a big difference between making less profit than you hoped for and losing more money than you expected to......
What makes it much more difficult in the case of Aston ownership compared to say Ferrari is firstly the lack of a recognised product path throughout the life of a model and secondly depreciation - owners of Astons can't repeatedly change up when they take the huge hits which is why I have numerous friends with large stables of performance cars who simply won't touch an Aston - they have all either been burnt before or have heard scare stories about depreciation from others
As with the 675LT, there is unlikely to be a watertight legal case but the factory are well aware that people (myself included) bought on that basis
I see a lot of comments on this area in general including some of the porsche models, more on 675 than V12V, where posters suggest something along the lines of you shouldn't buy cars to appreciate in value but instead to drive. That's all fine but the reality is, few people can afford to spend 6 figures on a car without being intelligent enough to look at every aspect of a 6 figure purchase including depreciation. There is a big difference between making less profit than you hoped for and losing more money than you expected to......
What makes it much more difficult in the case of Aston ownership compared to say Ferrari is firstly the lack of a recognised product path throughout the life of a model and secondly depreciation - owners of Astons can't repeatedly change up when they take the huge hits which is why I have numerous friends with large stables of performance cars who simply won't touch an Aston - they have all either been burnt before or have heard scare stories about depreciation from others
RobDown said:
FFM said:
LordBretSinclair said:
So what do people think about AM's transparency in regard to the 101 "last ever" V12 Vantage manual roadsters????
Don't recall, was that advertised as the "Last ever"?Here is the wording of the AML press release - July 2012.
........................................................................
Aston Martin V12 Vantage Roadster Roars In
Aston Martin is lifting the lid on an extreme new sports car with the global debut of the V12 Vantage Roadster.
The new sports car, available as a limited edition in selected markets worldwide, immediately becomes the most potent example of the open-top Vantage range and mixes the breath-taking power of Aston Martin's naturally aspirated 6.0-litre V12 engine with the established thrills of Vantage Roadster driving for what is an unforgettable sports car experience.
The V12 Vantage Roadster's 6.0-litre engine, mated as in the Coupe to a six-speed manual gearbox, generates 517 PS at 6,500 rpm and a muscular 570 Nm of torque at 5,750 rpm. It has been intelligently packaged into the Vantage Roadster's compact form to fully exploit the sports-orientated model's ample natural agility.
The naturally-aspirated V12 provides high levels of power and torque yet it delivers a flexible, refined driving experience illuminated with the potential for truly electrifying performance. The 0-62 mph sprint is dispatched in just 4.5 seconds* while this most potent Aston Martin Roadster is capable of 190 mph*.
While the Roadster naturally shares much of the technical and specification features of the V12 Vantage Coupe, some elements are redesigned to take account of the Roadster's neat packaging and engaging dynamics.
The V12 Vantage Roadster features a redesigned rear boot lid and lower front air intake to maintain a level of dynamic performance that's fully in keeping with the V12 Coupe, while there are also a number of unique chassis revisions. These include a modified rear damper set-up, front and rear damper valve tuning and a new rear spring design.
These changes, in conjunction with Aston Martin's use of Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres, ensure the sports car delivers dramatic straight-line performance as well as outstanding handling.
Styled to be as beautiful as it is potent, the new Roadster boasts a number of eye-catching additions that underline its sporty characteristics. Carbon fibre side strakes; a carbon fibre front splitter and rear diffuser; carbon fibre mirror caps and carbon fibre rear lamp infills – plus the new forged alloy wheel design – should leave the sports car cognoscenti in no doubt that this is a truly exclusive Aston Martin.
At the rear, the boot lid on the V12 Vantage Roadster incorporates a more pronounced 'flip' to reduce rear lift and improve stability at high speeds. The V12's diffuser houses a large, centre-mounted oil cooler and two large tail-pipe finishers.
As with the front splitter, the carbon fibre rear diffuser is hand-made to ensure the direction and consistency of the weave and ensure the best possible finish.
Inside, there are other distinguishing features that make the new car stand out from its illustrious siblings in the sought-after Aston Martin V8 Vantage and V12 Vantage line-up. Subtle additions such as the use of glass switches in the lower centre stack elevate yet further the luxurious ambience in the V12 Vantage Roadster cabin.
While for those seeking the ultimate in V12 Vantage Roadster personalisation, a package of interior trim comprising carbon fibre facia and carbon fibre gearshift surround is available.
Unique to the V12 Vantage and new V12 Vantage Roadster is the engine's "Sport" mode button, which enables the driver to select between two different powertrain modes.
Normal mode is the default from start-up and provides not only a more relaxed throttle response but also a quieter, more refined exhaust note. This creates a more progressive throttle response, suited to 'everyday' situations such as when driving in heavy traffic.
Sport mode, meanwhile, is designed for use in more dynamic driving situations where sharper responses are required. It has a number of tangible effects on the powertrain including a sharper throttle response, with the engine delivering more torque during the early stages of throttle pedal travel. Exhaust system bypass valves are also kept open for longer to create a particularly sporty exhaust note.
Aston Martin Chief Executive Officer Dr Ulrich Bez said: "The V12 Vantage models are, first and foremost, driver's cars – inviting and fully rewarding the driver's full involvement.
"The addition to our range of this exceptional new Roadster allows the driver and passenger to experience full 'sensory overload' thanks to its outstanding performance."
He added: "I believe no other car in this class offers the combination of the V12 Vantage Roadster's prestige, six-speed manual gearbox and the unique enjoyment that driving a high performance convertible can deliver."
Available to order in selected markets now, the new Aston Martin V12 Vantage Roadster is priced at £150,000 RRP in the UK.
Specification
Body
- Two-door, two-seat layout
- VH bonded aluminium structure
- Aluminium, magnesium alloy, composite and steel body
- Extruded aluminium door side impact beams
- High Intensity Discharge headlamps (dipped beam)
- Halogen projector headlamps (main beam)
- LED rear lamps
Engine
- All-alloy quad overhead cam 48 valve 5,935cc V12
- Compression ratio 10.7:1
- Front mid-mounted engine, rear-wheel drive
- Fully-catalysed stainless steel exhaust system with active bypass valves
- 517 PS at 6,500 rpm
- 570 Nm at 5,750 rpm
- 0-62 mph (100 km/h): 4.5 seconds***
- Maximum speed: 190 mph*** (305 km/h***)
Transmission
- Rear mid-mounted six-speed manual gearbox
- Alloy torque tube with carbon fibre prop shaft
- Limited-slip differential
- Final drive ratio 3.71:1
Steering
- Rack and pinion
- Column tilt and reach adjustment
Dimensions
- Length: 4,382mm
- Width: 2,022mm (including mirrors)
- Height: 1,256mm
- Wheelbase: 2,600mm
- Fuel Tank: 80ltrs
- Weight: 1,760kg***
Suspension
- Front: Independent double wishbone incorporating anti-dive geometry, coil springs, anti-roll bar and monotube dampers
- Rear: Independent double wishbones with anti-squat and anti-lift geometry, dual-rate coil springs, anti-roll bar and monotube dampers
Wheels and tyres
- Front: 9J x 19" Pirelli P Zero Corsa 255/35 ZR19
- Rear: 11J x 19" Pirelli P Zero Corsa 295/30 ZR19
- Tyre repair kit
Brakes
- Front: Ventilated carbon ceramic discs – 398 mm diameter with six-piston calipers
- Rear: Ventilated carbon ceramic discs – 360 mm diameter with four-piston calipers
- Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) with Track mode
- Anti-lock braking system (ABS)
- Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD)
- Emergency Brake Assist (EBA)
- Traction Control
Standard equipment
- Glass switches
- Carbon fibre door pulls
- Leather trimmed steering wheel
- Memory seats and exterior mirrors (three positions)
- Sports seats with 10-way electric adjustment, including height, tilt and lumbar adjustment
- Dual Stage Driver and Passenger Front Airbags
- Side Airbags (Sports seats only)
- Heated rear screen
- Automatic temperature control
- Trip computer
- Cruise control
- Hard Disk Drive (HDD) satellite navigation system*
- Bluetooth telephone preparation*
- Powerfold exterior mirrors
- Rain-sensing wipers
- Rear parking sensors
- Automatic headlamps
- Auto-dimming interior rear view mirror
- Tyre pressure monitoring*
- Alarm and immobiliser
- Remote-control central door locking
- Battery disconnect switch
- Tracking device (UK only)
- 160W Aston Martin Audio System
- MP3 player connectivity
Optional equipment
- Carbon Fibre Interior Pack (comprising carbon fibre facia and gearshift surround)
- Lightweight seats with six-way adjustment, including front and rear height adjust (does not include side airbags or passenger airbag cut-off switch)
- 700W Aston Martin Premium Audio System with Dolby® Pro Logic II®
- Bang & Olufsen BeoSound 1000W Audio System
- Black Bang & Olufsen speaker grilles and acoustic lens towers
- Black finish grille
- Bright finish grille
- Black exhaust tailpipes
- Black bonnet and side strake meshes
- Personalised sill plaques
- Garage door opener (Europe only)
- Tracking device**
- First aid kit
- Ashtray and cigar lighter
- Boot-mounted umbrella
- Front parking sensors
- Reversing camera
- Heated seats (Sports seats only)
- ISOFIX and fixed-height passenger seat (Sports seat only)
- Battery conditioner
*Not available in all markets
**Complies with UK Thatcham Category 5 requirements. Excludes subscription. Standard in UK
***Predicted figures
..........................................................................
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