ASTON MARTIN ENGINE PLANT
Discussion
Aston Martin Engine Plant.
"To have the ability to design and then manufacture our own high-performance engines in-house is something very special.
It gives us ultimate control of quality and that all-important character for which Aston Martin cars are renowned.
I have no doubts that our new twin-turbo V12 is the start of an even greater era of success”.
Dr Andy Palmer, Aston Martin President and CEO.
'That all-important character', is what Speedraser has been talking about.
The next engine is called M178
Ignore the plastic top, that will go.
SFO said:
surely AMG will build the V8 engines for AM at Affalterbach
Exactly, that is the point.
CEO was extolling the benefits of in-house engines, in this press release for the launch of the DB11, but we already knew about M-B.
It does seem to be a wonderful engine, just a shame it is also in a C-class saloon car.
tonyhall38 said:
You are mistaken.....I'm going to the engine plant in cologne.....done the factory thing.....very boring after the fourth time...
It is in a corner of the vast Ford Cologne factory.
I am sure you will find it.
There is a small door with Aston Martin written in it.
As the PR says, nothing to do with Ford, - of course.
Try to find out for us, when they are stopping production of the V8.
Enjoy your visit.
Jon39 said:
Aston Martin Engine Plant.
"To have the ability to design and then manufacture our own high-performance engines in-house is something very special.
It gives us ultimate control of quality and that all-important character for which Aston Martin cars are renowned.
I have no doubts that our new twin-turbo V12 is the start of an even greater era of success”.
Dr Andy Palmer, Aston Martin President and CEO.
'That all-important character', is what Speedraser has been talking about.
Speedraser said:
Jon39 said:
Aston Martin Engine Plant.
"To have the ability to design and then manufacture our own high-performance engines in-house is something very special.
It gives us ultimate control of quality and that all-important character for which Aston Martin cars are renowned.
I have no doubts that our new twin-turbo V12 is the start of an even greater era of success”.
Dr Andy Palmer, Aston Martin President and CEO.
'That all-important character', is what Speedraser has been talking about.
Yes, when AMEP inevitably stops (V8 dying and then V12 at somepoint) it will be a loss, and without dedicated in-house engine manufacturer of in house designed engines is one step away from serious automaker and one step closer to kit car assembler. IMHO Speedraiser's argument has always been valid. The MB engine might be better quality, better power / fuel economy, the principal is that it's not Aston derived and whilst some say that doesn't matter so long as the end result car drives well, the removal of provenance which a thoroughbred motor brings is intolerable for some to get over - me included.
BamfordMike said:
... when AMEP inevitably stops (V8 dying and then V12 at somepoint) it will be a loss, and without dedicated in-house engine manufacturer of in house designed engines is one step away from serious automaker and one step closer to kit car assembler. IMHO Speedraiser's argument has always been valid. The MB engine might be better quality, better power / fuel economy, the principal is that it's not Aston derived and whilst some say that doesn't matter so long as the end result car drives well, the removal of provenance which a thoroughbred motor brings is intolerable for some to get over - me included.
I think most of us are sad that the time will come, when AML no longer have engines that are unique to them. Of course financial constraints mean there is now no alternative, so therefore we understand that there is no choice any longer. The money invested in (perhaps given to) AML, presumably can either pay for the development of several new models, or two engines but hardly any new models.
I just hope that the Mk2 Vantage does not come with the Mercedes Benz electric handbrake (having to stretch forward and reach under the dashboard), the Mercedes Benz wide angle reverse camera (that tricks you into thinking that solid object behind is far away), and the Mercedes Benz engine stop/start (that keeps telling you - the computer is driving, not you).
I posted this topic, because the AP statement spoke passionately about in-house engines, but I wondered if it was mostly PR, because presumably there will not be any more AML engines, after the AE31 5.2 DB11 engine, which is the one he was talking about.
Mike - The AM31 is promoted as a brand new engine, but as the bores (89mm) are identical to the existing AE28 5935cc, is it really a development of the existing V12 engine? Do both blocks have very similar external appearance?
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 3rd February 19:19
Jon39 said:
I think most of us are sad that the time will come, when AML no longer have engines that are unique to them. Of course financial constraints mean there is now no alternative, so therefore we understand that there is no choice any longer. The money invested in (perhaps given to) AML, presumably can either pay for the development of several new models, or two engines but hardly any new models.
I just hope that the Mk2 Vantage does not come with the Mercedes Benz electric handbrake (having to stretch forward and reach under the dashboard), the Mercedes Benz wide angle reverse camera (that tricks you into thinking that solid object behind is far away), and the Mercedes Benz engine stop/start (that keeps telling you - the computer is driving, not you).
I posted this topic, because the AP statement spoke passionately about in-house engines, but I wondered if it was mostly PR, because presumably there will not be any more AML engines, after the AE31 5.2 DB11 engine, which is the one he was talking about.
Mike - The AM31 is promoted as a brand new engine, but as the bores (89mm) are identical to the existing AE28 5935cc, is it really a development of the existing V12 engine? Do both blocks have very similar external appearance?
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 3rd February 19:19
Speedraser said:
You seem resigned to the notion that there is "no choice" but to use someone else's engine. I'm not, even though it's clearly a very major undertaking. Andy Palmer may not be resigned to this either, since he seems to understand that this MATTERS.
I think most of us would agree with you, that it certainly does matter.
I am not a pessimistic person, but for a long time, AML have known that an out of control debt (is it £500m?) could kill them, but using a ready made engine probably will not. That must have been one of their decisions. The MB deal I think was done during the Dr. Bez era.
However, if the SUV project is a winner and profits flow, then developing a new Aston Martin engine will become a possibility again.
I'm no fan of the SUV, though calling it a Lagonda (I think it better fits the marque/brand) rather than an Aston would make me feel better. That said, I don't permanently reside in a fantasy world, so if it really does generate money and allow for "real" Aston engines, I'll "tolerate" it. Maybe even celebrate...
Jon39 said:
....., the AP statement spoke passionately about in-house engines, but I wondered if it was mostly PR.
Mike - The AM31 is promoted as a brand new engine, but as the bores (89mm) are identical to the existing AE28 5935cc, is it really a development of the existing V12 engine? Do both blocks have very similar external appearance?
Regarding press releases, they just seem to say whatever they need at that given time to help sell a car - CCM's on DB9, V12V and DBS stated as being the pinnacle evolution of braking performance yet DB11 reverting back to steel. Concept V12V 600 BHP, and a short time ago AP proclaimed "Forget Tesla, we'll lead with ultra-luxury electric vehicles", declaring the ERapide in the shops next year!! Really?? I doubt even DBX will be hybrid at launch considering what birdies tell me, and there are no EV sits vacant here ( https://www.millbank.com/projects/aston-martin ) yet every other position under the sun is, meaning I'm sure it will be more the case of Tesla will forget Aston......Mike - The AM31 is promoted as a brand new engine, but as the bores (89mm) are identical to the existing AE28 5935cc, is it really a development of the existing V12 engine? Do both blocks have very similar external appearance?
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 3rd February 19:19
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/10/05/aston-martin-c...
For me, they have proven that whatever the PR is pre model launch, it needs to be taken with pinch of salt until the car is in the flesh.
Regarding the AM31 engine, I had the opportunity to look over a DB11 on a ramp this weekend, I could of learnt much more about its tech, I was eager to see all that +£1k's worth of under bonnet jewellery. One was expecting an electric button to operate solenoids which gave a quality reassuring automated opening lift to that mighty clamshell bonnet. No! The car had a wire ring pull in both driver and passenger footwells!! With a tug the passenger side released, the wire nearly cutting my finger off in process of pulling it! but no matter the force applied, the driver side despite hearing the mechanism was moving, it would not release the catch, so I couldn't see under the hood!! I guess bonnet release wasn't on AP's check list - the car had 750 miles on clock!
More on the subject of spurious PR and Looking at stuff on the net about AM31
http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/15/14274342/aston-m...
The block looks pretty much the same but does have subtle differences, the front cover, sump baffle and sump pan look very similar to previous engine and all have similar bolting pattern / footprint too.
The bod in the vid I link below discusses block strengthening, supposedly to beef up liner walls, bolt fixings and cooling jackets, the bod says the block was "redesigned and made stronger to take the pressure charging" - To save you the boredom that +29k people have had to endure, skip straight to 2:06
https://youtu.be/0IREtCujKJk
Yet here
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aston-m...
The article states the same bod quoting "a weight saving design of the block, exhaust manifold (but it's now heavier turbo) and crankshaft saved 20kg" ?? so it's been made lighter yet stronger without discussing exotic materials being employed!!?? That suspicious PR caused me delve a bit deeper.
The same man states in the vid @ 2:41 "forged connecting rod", yet the pics in the Autocar link taken at AMEP look decidedly grainy / sintered to me??
Apparently, the same man further claims, they have made a wet sump system equal the performance of a dry sump system "on the circuit" - yeah right, go tell that to the F1 world! The only drawbacks OF A PROPERLY designed and functioning dry sump system are complexity and cost, everything else is a huge positive Vs wet. Aston Martin Racing GT3 is dry sump, One-77 is dry sump yet DB11, a road car is wet sump and it equals a dry sump on "the circuit" - give me a break!!
I will next update when the ring pull on the DB11 allows the hood to release!! But as to whether AM31 will be as durable and bombproof whilst being developed outside of Ford's standards policing, we will only know in 5-10 years.
SFO said:
So Pagani, using AMG engine, is a kit car manufacturer ??
I'm an engines man so a bit bias, but, list the Stuff which defines a hypercar from a Supercar, then a Luxury sports car, then a sports car and a similar demarcation exists in purest books when defining the actual car company.Didn't Ferrari once say something like, you buy an engine, you get the rest of the car free, so amongst other measures the engine becomes a major defining status of a car / car company.
Westfield, Caterham, TVR, Noble - all kit car makers, as is Pagani, it's just Pagani level of OCD and the mega £BOM builds a car from a kit of parts which eclipses the end product the majority of volume makers could ever achieve. But, rework Pagani business model to say 5-10k units per annum and the reduced sale price because of less exclusivity yet the price of the kit to buy in to make the car remaining largely the same, will return a less favourable balance sheet. So there comes a point when buying in has to be replaced by in-sourcing, and another reason why the engine defines the definition that a grown up company designs and builds its own engines, its future proof and sustainable, but in most cases the kit car maker couldn't afford to progress to in-source.
It's simply good luck and legacy Aston has AMEP, and given current financial climate, perhaps as has already been said, Aston should 100% buy in the engine until its model is repeatable / sustainable.
I think Pagani is very different, it's decades long ties with AMG means Pagani engineers probably work very closely with AMG to bespoke design their engine derivative, meaning no benefit if they took engine in house lock-stock. I doubt Aston will have the same authority within Merc, has it been categorically / officially confirmed the door to AMG is open to Aston?? Yes, there's lots of words it has, but remember the V12V concept was stated @ 600BHP!!
If they get a Merc engine with different cam cover, airbox and exhaust = kit car. If they got AMG + bespoke tweaks (Pagani) well yes, that's a whole lot less kit car'ish - but it still ain't the kudos of engine being designed / built totally in house.
A different measure is group sharing (Bentley/ VW), if Merc had controlling share in Pagani or Aston and filtered engines to both, all of a sudden it turns to group share, far from kit car.
Buying in an engine defines the car company as kit car in my book, working to that definition the Veyron is not, the Zonda is - but whatever the route to the end product, there is no getting away from Pagani being mega good, but at a greater sales volume, its suppliers or revenues would not check out as it does when building the hypercar from kit of parts - so it cannot really be compared / defined in the same way as Aston - a volume maker which 'downgrades' from building own to buying in engines.
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