Our Defining Experience
Discussion
A knowledgeable & very well respected AM specialist suggested that I post on here about a servicing and diagnostics issue we’ve just had with our local well known AM dealer network. The issue has resulted in the need for us to find a new engine for our DB9 as the dealer got it badly wrong and has run away and is hiding behind their solicitors. We’re left with a knackered car and a very large bill. We really don’t want anyone else to find themselves in this position.
Here’s the thing though.......having read the forum terms & conditions, it seems giving any more detail might fall into the ‘naming and shaming’ restrictions.
So, I’ll end by introducing myself. I’m Claire and we live just outside Cardiff, South Wales.
Lots of folk post pics of their AM cars, so here’s how we travel in ours. Yep you’re right, it does look mighty like a recovery truck.
Here’s the thing though.......having read the forum terms & conditions, it seems giving any more detail might fall into the ‘naming and shaming’ restrictions.
So, I’ll end by introducing myself. I’m Claire and we live just outside Cardiff, South Wales.
Lots of folk post pics of their AM cars, so here’s how we travel in ours. Yep you’re right, it does look mighty like a recovery truck.
Really sorry Claire to hear about your bad news. Could you please elaborate what the 'servicing and diagnostic' issues you've had & I'am guessing a complete engine failure? We would all like to know more about your problems then maybe someone more knowledgeable on here could help . I'am an Aston newbie having only owned my V8VS since Oct 2017. Previously owned many Porsche's & on the Porsche forum on here there are a few engine failures reported but thought Gayden era Aston engines were pretty bullet proof.
Thanks GameofCars.
“Engine emissions service required” was the error message. Plus a soft, regular, metallic ticking noise from top of engine. Garage cleared the message and said it was non specific and diagnosed noisy tappet, told us in person and wrote in a text that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended. 3 days later the bottom end went.
Garage denying all liability. When we complained, they replied using their solicitor!
“Engine emissions service required” was the error message. Plus a soft, regular, metallic ticking noise from top of engine. Garage cleared the message and said it was non specific and diagnosed noisy tappet, told us in person and wrote in a text that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended. 3 days later the bottom end went.
Garage denying all liability. When we complained, they replied using their solicitor!
So sorry to read about your most unfortunate situation.
Can understand that you must not name the main dealer, and my thought when reading, was that the South Wales dealer closed quite a long time ago.
My only other comment is simply memories of very infrequent posts that I have read on here, about V12 engine troubles.
One or two people have experienced ticking noises, for which there was an explanation, but I cannot remember details.
The other one much more serious, is something to do with the first pair of catalytic converters (fairly close to the exhaust manifold). The internals of a catalytic converter disintegrates, then the engine sucks some of the broken pieces into the combustion chamber of the engine, with catastrophic results. How common, and what preventative measures can be taken, I do not know.
I suppose there might not be any advance indication that this is likely to occur, which if so, means a dealer or specialist cannot be at fault for this type of occurrence.
Hope that you eventually receive some helpful advice.
EDIT - In my opinion, very heavy handed for an Aston Martin main dealer to use solicitors at an early stage, unless there are perhaps other reasons.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 10th August 07:34
john ryan said:
Just to satisfy my curiosity, what mechanism causes the engine suck in debris from the exhaust? Is it via the egr system?
I hope your question is not to me, following my post John.
We need an expert to help with the answer.
Although there have been previous forum references to this V12 occurrence, I would like to know whether the same thing could ever happen to the V8. Also are there any precautions, ie. possibly front cat removal?
I would also like to hear how the failure of a catalytic converter, downstream of the cylinder in the flow of the exhaust gasses manages to go against that not unsubstantial flow, and reverse up the manifold getting into the cylinder.
I am aware of certain sellers offering performance exhaust manifolds without cats that are supposed to prevent this happening, but has anyone actually suffered this fate, and not just being told so by the manifold seller? A tubular manifold, correctly designed and without cats will certainly offer a notable increase in performance but I just cant see the cat ingestion arguement.
I am aware of certain sellers offering performance exhaust manifolds without cats that are supposed to prevent this happening, but has anyone actually suffered this fate, and not just being told so by the manifold seller? A tubular manifold, correctly designed and without cats will certainly offer a notable increase in performance but I just cant see the cat ingestion arguement.
555CMD said:
Thanks GameofCars.
“Engine emissions service required” was the error message. Plus a soft, regular, metallic ticking noise from top of engine. Garage cleared the message and said it was non specific and diagnosed noisy tappet, told us in person and wrote in a text that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended. 3 days later the bottom end went.
Garage denying all liability. When we complained, they replied using their solicitor!
That means they know they are on dodgy ground.“Engine emissions service required” was the error message. Plus a soft, regular, metallic ticking noise from top of engine. Garage cleared the message and said it was non specific and diagnosed noisy tappet, told us in person and wrote in a text that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended. 3 days later the bottom end went.
Garage denying all liability. When we complained, they replied using their solicitor!
Thanks for the replies. In quick response to a couple of comments - (1) there is no other reason that would require response from solicitors so yes very heavy handed and (2) the new car sales dealership went but the service centre is still advertised.
Citizens Advice have reported the garage to trading standards on our behalf - we don’t usually take to social media but have been advised to on this occasion by them.
Thanks all.
Citizens Advice have reported the garage to trading standards on our behalf - we don’t usually take to social media but have been advised to on this occasion by them.
Thanks all.
Zod said:
555CMD said:
Thanks GameofCars.
“Engine emissions service required” was the error message. Plus a soft, regular, metallic ticking noise from top of engine. Garage cleared the message and said it was non specific and diagnosed noisy tappet, told us in person and wrote in a text that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended. 3 days later the bottom end went.
Garage denying all liability. When we complained, they replied using their solicitor!
That means they know they are on dodgy ground.“Engine emissions service required” was the error message. Plus a soft, regular, metallic ticking noise from top of engine. Garage cleared the message and said it was non specific and diagnosed noisy tappet, told us in person and wrote in a text that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended. 3 days later the bottom end went.
Garage denying all liability. When we complained, they replied using their solicitor!
OP, you should think seriously about lawyering up.
http://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/cata...
There is a little more info here on the hazards of pre-cats. I believe the V12's are generally bulletproof and its only prolonged misfires that can cause this? Regardless, we can't speculate on this being the cause. I hope the OP gets sorted and running asap.
There is a little more info here on the hazards of pre-cats. I believe the V12's are generally bulletproof and its only prolonged misfires that can cause this? Regardless, we can't speculate on this being the cause. I hope the OP gets sorted and running asap.
Edited by dbs2000 on Thursday 9th August 20:38
Hi Claire - so very sorry you’ve had such a bad experience. Dreadful step taken by them.
Some suggestions:
1. Keep a clear record of the process to date; when you contacted them, who you spoke to, etc. Take screenshots of txt messages and copies of other correspondence.
2. Get 1 hour free advice from a good local solicitor who has experience of consumer and commercial law. A good solicitor will give a considered opinion based on the facts you present and shouldn’t sell their services regardless.
3. Aston Martin lives and dies by its reputation. Are the dealers still an official AM service centre? If so, Andy Palmer could help bypass lots of aggravation! An open letter may help.
Good luck.
Some suggestions:
1. Keep a clear record of the process to date; when you contacted them, who you spoke to, etc. Take screenshots of txt messages and copies of other correspondence.
2. Get 1 hour free advice from a good local solicitor who has experience of consumer and commercial law. A good solicitor will give a considered opinion based on the facts you present and shouldn’t sell their services regardless.
3. Aston Martin lives and dies by its reputation. Are the dealers still an official AM service centre? If so, Andy Palmer could help bypass lots of aggravation! An open letter may help.
Good luck.
I think we all know which dealer we are talking about. Franchise taken away but still sell second hand cars of different makes.
The service centre is not AM approved although their sister dealerships both sell and service AM.
I bought my DB9 from there when they still had the franchise.. had issues that needed AM head office input.
I had emails as proof. Do you have any written proof that they said nothing to worry about..
The service centre is not AM approved although their sister dealerships both sell and service AM.
I bought my DB9 from there when they still had the franchise.. had issues that needed AM head office input.
I had emails as proof. Do you have any written proof that they said nothing to worry about..
8Tech said:
I would also like to hear how the failure of a catalytic converter, downstream of the cylinder in the flow of the exhaust gasses manages to go against that not unsubstantial flow, and reverse up the manifold getting into the cylinder.
Isn't there someone on here with a blue V12VS who had catalytic converters ingestion and AML fitted a new engine under warranty, specifying that was the reason?The cat ceramic matrix material breaks up (from sustained misfire) and then if you are unlucky some of the pieces get sucked into a cylinder during the intake stroke during the brief valve overlap period where both intake and exhaust valves are open.
Interestingly someone on 6 speed just had the same emissions service message coincident with a sudden ticking noise on their DB9. Turned out that it was something I'd not heard of before; a broken valve spring. Fortunately no secondary damage. But depending on the location/type of break, you could imagine the piston tagging a partially dropped valve and then finally breaking the valve and then the rest of the machinery.
Interestingly someone on 6 speed just had the same emissions service message coincident with a sudden ticking noise on their DB9. Turned out that it was something I'd not heard of before; a broken valve spring. Fortunately no secondary damage. But depending on the location/type of break, you could imagine the piston tagging a partially dropped valve and then finally breaking the valve and then the rest of the machinery.
R129 300SL said:
I think we all know which dealer we are talking about. Franchise taken away but still sell second hand cars of different makes.
The service centre is not AM approved although their sister dealerships both sell and service AM.
I bought my DB9 from there when they still had the franchise.. had issues that needed AM head office input.
I had emails as proof. Do you have any written proof that they said nothing to worry about..
Indeed... that lot. Only had one experience with them when they were still official - and asked for my deposit back (which they did give). Wouldn’t touch any of their franchises with a barge pole.The service centre is not AM approved although their sister dealerships both sell and service AM.
I bought my DB9 from there when they still had the franchise.. had issues that needed AM head office input.
I had emails as proof. Do you have any written proof that they said nothing to worry about..
Unfortunately as they are not a licensed service centre (regardless if others in their chain are), I’m not sure AM will be able to help.
Suggest that if it gets legal, we don’t delve too deeply into it in this thread at this stage.
OP - please let us know the outcome. Perhaps private messaging those who previously reported these exact issues may help? Age of vehicle, etc., likely to be essential to fuller picture with solicitor.
Claire - if you really have a text that says "that this would not pose a risk to the engine and that no further work was recommended" and you can prove that the text was from the garage then surely they don't really have anywhere to go on this and should repair your car free of charge.
Many years ago, long before text messages had even be conceived, I had a Stage 3 1380 Mini (great car BTW) and had a similar issue. It developed what I thought was a gearbox noise the day I was due to go to my Mum's for the weekend (250 mile round trip). I took it to my local Mini specialist (who had worked on the car before) and they agreed it was a gearbox problem and would book it in for the next week but it was OK to use for my weekend trip. Gearbox destroyed itself after about 50 miles so car was recovered to the garage. I had nothing in writing but they accepted that they were liable and repaired the car FOC.
Now I realise this is not even the same scale of disaster (although maybe comparable affordability given my income at the time) but the principle is similar. They said it would be OK, it wasn't, so they coughed up. As has been said already I think you need to seek legal representation as a new V12 is a big chunk of cash.
Many years ago, long before text messages had even be conceived, I had a Stage 3 1380 Mini (great car BTW) and had a similar issue. It developed what I thought was a gearbox noise the day I was due to go to my Mum's for the weekend (250 mile round trip). I took it to my local Mini specialist (who had worked on the car before) and they agreed it was a gearbox problem and would book it in for the next week but it was OK to use for my weekend trip. Gearbox destroyed itself after about 50 miles so car was recovered to the garage. I had nothing in writing but they accepted that they were liable and repaired the car FOC.
Now I realise this is not even the same scale of disaster (although maybe comparable affordability given my income at the time) but the principle is similar. They said it would be OK, it wasn't, so they coughed up. As has been said already I think you need to seek legal representation as a new V12 is a big chunk of cash.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
The cat ceramic matrix material breaks up (from sustained misfire) and then if you are unlucky some of the pieces get sucked into a cylinder during the intake stroke during the brief valve overlap period where both intake and exhaust valves are open.
Interestingly someone on 6 speed just had the same emissions service message coincident with a sudden ticking noise on their DB9. Turned out that it was something I'd not heard of before; a broken valve spring. Fortunately no secondary damage. But depending on the location/type of break, you could imagine the piston tagging a partially dropped valve and then finally breaking the valve and then the rest of the machinery.
I had a broken exhaust valve spring on my Virage, which took the dealership an inordinate amount of time to diagnose (originally manifest as a miss-fire). My fear of primary cat ingestion is such that I will in all likelihood have these removed from my Vanquish. The problem with the V12 unit is that unless you are sure that the car has learned the miss-fire codes (and I'm not given my prior experience), one might go unnoticed for a long enough period to cause irreparable damage.Interestingly someone on 6 speed just had the same emissions service message coincident with a sudden ticking noise on their DB9. Turned out that it was something I'd not heard of before; a broken valve spring. Fortunately no secondary damage. But depending on the location/type of break, you could imagine the piston tagging a partially dropped valve and then finally breaking the valve and then the rest of the machinery.
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